OMG! F-13s outperform F-35s!

[+JSF_Aggie 1,291]

I agree with you here, Aggie. But if it was all computer controlled, the pilots would be equally skilled, thus giving a more balanced view of the aircrafts capabilities, so if the JSF lost more scenarios than the "F-13", the JSF would technically be inferior. In real life another key factor is, as you pointed out, "the man in the cockpit", then again, modern US fighters rely heavily on computers. So one could, perhaps, argue if they rely too much on it.

 

Agreed, if everything involved was acurate, and of the highest fidelity.

 

Usually in a simulation of that scale, be it manned, or un-manned, the players are usually comming from different programs. For example, you may have one entity generator running that is creating the RED aircraft, and another for the BLUE. You may have different weapon servers running that do the weapon flyouts, and send missile launch envelope information back to the shooter. Same thing for the ground entities, command & control, etc..... All of these may be of different fidelities.

 

You can't assume they're all equal or the highest fidelity, it depends on what the point of the simulation was. In our manned tactical sims, we have entity generators for ground threats, but if RED air is ever envolved, they are always manned sims, not computer controled.

 

My next question would be what security level was this sim running at? I find it hard to believe if he needed to be briefed on it (ie classified), he could just run out and tell the media the results of the sim, at least not without some repercussions.

[serverandenforcer 33]

Ya know, what isn't mentioned about the test is what the test was about. It could be about what not to do in a F-35. I'm quite sure there could be a lot of easy mistakes to be made in a superior aircraft that can make it very vulnerable to an inferior aircraft. Too much information is missing in that press release (probably because the informatin is classified), and not to mention Jensen's agenda.

[MAKO69 186]

Stormy way to funny. Did they forget the F-35 is stealth and the F-13 (MIG-21) will be dead before the pilot could say. To quote ICE "T" from the movie Stealth Fighter '99 (not Stealth w/the hot ass pilot, no not the dudes the chick. I could already see that coming from all you clowns) mono tone "Ah s**t I'm hit".

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

Everyone's taking the F-13=Mig-21 to heart a bit. I was just taking the p*ss. I think they meant F-16 and it was a keypad typo. Still, stealth or not, I think comparing F-35s to Su-30s is a bit of a waste of time as their operational profiles (along with their systems, ordinance, pilot training, etc) is going to have a large bearing on how they are going to fare against each other.

I mean, lightweight aircraft and heavy aircraft are going to be able to perform similar roles, but the way they're applied is going to be quite different (especially with the RAAF's penchant for low level, scattered penetration). The F-35s will do the job nicely and the SuperBugs will be able to provide an effective top cover against the Sukhois, if ever they met (I've got more of a chance of hooking up with Tina Fey!). F-15Es would do it better for around the same cost, but here we are.

 

I'd say this "are the F-35s worthy" debate here is akin to asking what's 'best' between the F-4 Phantom and the A-4 Skyhawk. Both are good at what they do, they just do it differently. We simply don't need the F-22, even if the US would sell it to us. It's just fear mongering by the uninformed. Unfortunately, that includes the Senate as well.

[MAKO69 186]

Of course an F-16 will outperform an f-35 the F-35 has software that keeps the pilot from over stresssing the airframe so yes an F-16 in a true dogfight could out turn and pull more G, but the F-35 has stealth on its side so it would have the upperhand before it went to an ACM fight.

[+Dave 2,319]

Well here is all I am going to say, JSF_Aggie works in the program, so speculate all you want but his word is the final one. If he comfirms or denies it then I am taking his word.

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

Yeah, I feel more confident about what JSF_Aggie has to say about it than someone like Denis Jensen. It's a no brainer.

[SkyStrike 15]

PREPOSTEROUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MiG-21's beating a JSF??? That isn't possible in the realms of reality (unless of course the MiG-21 was piloted by someone like Manfred von Richtofen , Walther Nowotny, or Adolf Galland and the JSF was piloted by a janitor who's just learnt to fly.)

 

 

But there's some ambiguity in the Australian News article.... quoted in the ist post of this thread; It says that the JSF was beaten by Sukhois...but it doesn't mention which type of Sukhoi aircraft...

 

and here it says that the opposing aircraft were F-13's (whatever that is)...

 

Strange....

Edited September 23, 2008 by Tomcat_ace

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

No, they said F-13s, whatever they are. Not Mig-21s.

[SkyStrike 15]

No, they said F-13s, whatever they are. Not Mig-21s.

 

 

Ok..... That's Fine..... but what about the newspaper article quoted in the 1st post of the thread.... It says that the opposing aircraft were Sukhois altough it doesn't mention the type....

[+Dave 2,319]

the JSF was piloted by a janitor who's just learnt to fly.)

 

That by far is the best post on this yet.

[herman01 0]

I think Dennis Jensen view is that Australia might be able to buy more Sukhois with same amount and money and be able to buy them right now. I think there’s some uneasiness with some international buyers because the JSF is still somewhat of unknown quantity. I bet there’s some bad blood too over the fact that a lot of Australians were upset the purchases of the Super Hornet and they may feel like their not always obligated to purchase western arms.

 

Here’s some more on the same subject.

 

http://news.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/...80911-4e6u.html

 

http://www.liberal.org.au/news.php?Id=1663

[SkyStrike 15]

That by far is the best post on this yet.

 

Thanks...

[Piloto 3]

New Aussie fighter 'clubbed like seal'

 

 

The federal opposition has dismissed new doubts about the capacity of the multi-billion dollar Joint Strike Fighter to perform against jets used by Russia and China.

 

- JSFs 'beaten' in simulated dogfights

- Australia likely to pay $16 billion

- War games 'not real life'

 

The JSF jets, for which Australia is likely to pay $16 billion, were comprehensively beaten in highly classified simulated dogfights against Russian-built Sukhoi fighter aircraft, it has been reported.

 

The war games, conducted at Hawaii's Hickam airbase last month, were witnessed by at least four RAAF personnel and a member of Australia's peak military spy agency, the Defence Intelligence Organisation, The West Australian said.

 

Opposition defence spokesman Nick Minchin said he was taking "with a grain of salt" the validity of the report. "This is based on a computer game, computer modelling of the aircraft," he told Sky News.

 

"This is not real life."

 

Senator Minchin said he had a classified briefing on the JSF from its US manufacturer Lockheed-Martin which had promoted the aircraft as the most advanced jet fighter ever.

 

"I can't really say much about it, but this is a phenomenal aircraft.

 

"As our chief of defence Angus Houston has said this is a most extraordinary aircraft, it is the right aircraft for Australia."

 

The multi-purpose fighter would be the backbone of the United States military, Senator Minchin said.

 

"We are fortunate to be in it and the government should move to make the decision to acquire it."

 

WA Liberal backbencher Dennis Jensen said he had spoken to a third party with knowledge of the final classified test results who had claimed the JSF had been clubbed like baby seals by the simulated Sukhois, The West Australian reported.

 

He said the government should demand that the US Government sell it the F-22 which was already in operation instead of the JSF.

 

A response was been sought from the government.

 

AAP

 

 

 

link: http://www.theage.com.au/national/new-auss...80911-4e6b.html

 

 

Well i really dont know if two average pilots with F-35 and Su-27 (or terminator) would clash, who would win....but i concour its the pilot not the machine that wins dogfights!

For the political side: its compreensible that a project like this and with that much costs overrun would make the "moneygivers" and pacifists blow their heads with that much money thrown away...especialy in this case (Australia) where cost per unit is almost 16M us$(not confirmed espected 20M usd!!!)...

 

In my opinion it would be a nice substitute for PoAF Vipers in a (near?) future....in spite of believing even Romania will have the JSF first than we will...

Edited September 23, 2008 by Piloto

[eraser_tr 29]

I want to know just what an "F-13" is that this guy is referring to. Its simulated by computer, who wrote the code and flight models (and avionics) and all that jazz. I mean if they were flying an Klav's F-35 in strike fighters against the MF's mig-21F-13 in strike fighters, the mig might very well have won because all the rediculous classified features of the F-35 aren't actually available.

[+Typhoid 231]

I want to know just what an "F-13" is that this guy is referring to. Its simulated by computer, who wrote the code and flight models (and avionics) and all that jazz. I mean if they were flying an Klav's F-35 in strike fighters against the MF's mig-21F-13 in strike fighters, the mig might very well have won because all the rediculous classified features of the F-35 aren't actually available.

 

I'm guessing you are real close to what passed as "research" by those idiots.........

[+drdoyo 2]

The part from that article that gets me the most, all other considerations aside, is...

 

"He said the government should demand that the US Government sell it the F-22 which was already in operation instead of the JSF."

 

 

It's a good thing I'm not a politician. My answer would be, "Sir, we hear and acknowledge your 'demand', ....perhaps you can build one yourself. GOOD DAY!"

[Salamander67 0]

Personally I'm wondering wheter the mysterious F-13 wouldn't be the YF-113/MiG-23 after all... But let's admit it, when someone throw such a deisgnation in our face, were just guessing about its meaning.

 

Thinking of it, how would the JSF be in a turning dogfight, starting well within visual range, could a MiG-21 have any chance? Addmittedly, I don't have any good ideas about how it would get there in a real life situation, but as it seems this was computer simulations with changing parameters, the scenario was probably tested.

[eraser_tr 29]

My guess would be that the mig-21 would have a better sustained turning speed (as generall all older aircraft do over newer ones because of speeds), but that the F-35 would have a better initial turn speed because of the FBL system giving better response. The F-35 would have the mig beat hands down in any other indicator, speed, altitute, climbing speed thrust to weight ration, wing loading, etc, etc.

[bwild 5]

Lockheed and the USAF have given a reaction.

 

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2008/09/...efense_092208w/

[Rambler 1-1 9]

EDIT: whoops, didn't see the other two pages

 

anyway, I think that those who make descisions about this stuff know the reality, the only problem I can think of here is ignorant berks coming around saying how crappy the F-35 is.

 

ther is one real way to solve this, though. AI vs AI battle in WOI with the up-and-coming F-35 against any random opponent.

 

-another thing is that computers don't know everything. For example, in the f0's, and "advanced" IBM flight simulating computer said that the Avro Arrow would never get off the ground, let alone break the sound barrier. However, it did both with hardly a problem. I know that the computer was probably wayy innacurate, and it was run by americans who didn't want Canada to have a good fighter, but it still makes a point.

Edited September 24, 2008 by Rambler 1-1

[Canfield 0]

Opposition defence spokesman Nick Minchin said he was taking "with a grain of salt" the validity of the report. "This is based on a computer game, computer modelling of the aircraft," he told Sky News.

 

"This is not real life."

"You're not real. The spiders crawling down your forehead are not real. I do not exist."

(Sorry, the voices in my head forced me to get that off my chest.)

 

It's quite peculiar that someone should say "This is not real", as if anyone entitled to an opinion on this should understand that western governments don't send their own pilots up in the air to fight eachother like gladiators. Although many would probably believe this (you know the type. The sort of people who, after an episode of Spooks, sends a letter to the BBC complaining not about the 15 people brutally murdered during those 50 minutes, but about one scene where a character spoke on a mobile phone whilst driving.)

 

I should probably go stab a pillow before my head explodes with anger from thinking about the analogy above, and then have my assorted flavours of pills to make me agreeable again.

 

Au revoir, lads!

[+76.IAP-Blackbird 3,554]

Ok i read all in this thread but where the hell was something written about a F-13 beats F-35 ....????