Where are the 2 Seat Voodoo's ?

[triplethr3at 0]

The F-101 (all variants) was an interceptor not an air superiority fighter. It flies very fast but it cant turn in on many of the Russian fighters. Against a MiG its best chance was to engage in a slashing engagement where the voodoo would break off get some distance and slash back (much like the 104) if stuck in a close in dog fight i would try my best to get it into a vertical battle. The voodoo is doomed in a horizontal turning battle with the migs. MiG 21's turn radius is less than half that of the voodoo and forget about the MiG-19/17.

Awsome mod my friend. One of your best ones yet

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

Ya'll make the same mistake so many in the past always made, again and again, and that mistake cost them. Same bad assumptions. The idea back in 1958 was high altitude, where no airplane has a good turning ability except large strategic bombers, but the Voodoo alone had high speed and endurance, and lets assume armed with Sidewinders, as USAF was just then finding out, against their will (NAVY did it), how good this missile was for Air Force fighters over Formosa and China.

 

IR Falcons, well that could suck. But then, no airplane turns well at high altitude and high speed, so the problems seen in Vietnam with Falcons at low altitude hard turning dogfights in the humid cloudy SE Asian tropics may not be an issue (as opposed to say, escorting SAC bombers high above the clouds over cold Siberia for a purely random example the comes out of nowhere).

 

F-101A, with AIM-9B, cruising in waves of small flights, see MiG-19s (or Yak-25s) rising to engage B-47s. F-101s engage the slower MiGs, either (1) downing them, (2) forcing them to turn and so miss their chance at their B-47 targets, or (3) if neither of those happens, keep on going like Duracell Bunny as another flight of fully armed Voodoos is close behind.

 

The trick is the original design goal of F-101A as high altitude escort fighter, not low level low speed Turn~n~Boyd dogfight shooter plane which is the primary "thinking" on combat flight The Sims webboards (the devs have much to blame for this).

 

 

 

Weed::

I am going to have to respectfully agree to disagree with you on this one. In my opinion the "Ultimate Fighter" can turn with the best of them.

 

EDIT: I am not saying it is bad at a 1 pass intercept of a flight of bombers though.

Japanese pilots describe AVG P-40s making one shot diving passes at Ki-27s and Ki-43s. Both the Japanese Army and Flying Tigers discovered one pass by P-40s was enough against far more manueverable fighters.

 

P-40 was the ultimate fighter in China, back in the day.

[+Jug 99]

It`s the perfect plane for soviet intercept tactics ... but on the wrong side... should be a MiG-101 hahahaha

Right on the spot, Blackbird. It was great as a point interceptor and useless in a dogfight. Sorta like the YF-12A (fighter predecessor of the SR-71) lots of Mach, Mach, but no turn. Just look at the jet....at a high angle of attack the wings would cut off the elevator resulting in no pitch control or a "pitch up" out of control event. McDonald Douglas actually put a kicker on the stick to punch the stick forward when extreme angles of attack were approached. The Voodoo was made for the "get there fast, shoot and go home" missions. Come to think of it, isn't that real close to what Eric Hartmann said was his favorite tactic in the Bf-109G in WWII (352 kills). Come to think of it, isn't that what a lot of real pilots and campaign survivors here say, "Get in fast, do your thing, and go home." Dogfighting is left to SeaGulls (long on tales and short on time) clinging to the end of the bar in the Pilot's bar. If your intent is to survive the war, come home as a hero, and marry the prom queen, leave the dogfighting to those with more balls than brains. You can do a respectful flyby of their smoking hole. The One-Oh-Wonder was made to do just that (in-shoot-out) and it was very good at what is was made for.

Edited December 12, 2008 by Jug

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

Oh, yea, by making the same bad assumptions, I mean the always repeated thinking that manueverability is King.

 

Chennault had the same problem teaching his tough brawling ready to fight pilots not to maneuver. When they got their asses kicked in their first fights, naturally turn fights, they got ready to learn. They were *lucky* that Curtiss engineers gave even the slow minded enough time to learn while being shot up in their butts. But then they were fighter pilots so lala that's the only way they learn hehe...but learn they did, and when they made their move to Corsairs in the Pacific, they knew what was King.

[+Veltro2k 6,351]

What happened to your voodoo veltro? Are you still working on it? By the way... great job on the Bear/ KC-135/ Mig 31.

 

 

Since I saw that Erik and Blackfly where both working on it i decided to scrap mine and concentrate on other aircrafts

[+Veltro2k 6,351]

That was the USAF's chief complaint about it too. Still this plane has really become my favorite USAF plane.

 

 

I still like the F-5 the best .. I call it a personal Jet Fighter

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

I still like the F-5 the best .. I call it a personal Jet Fighter

huh, I never thought of it like that.

 

Folland Gnat too.

 

La-15

 

Hey that's pretty cool. Best...Yak-19 yes!

[+Spectre_USA 7]

I still like the F-5 the best .. I call it a personal Jet Fighter

 

I have often described it as a "sports car of the sky!"

 

That little single seat Scooter is looking a lot like one as well!

 

[FastCargo 412]

Dogfighting is left to SeaGulls...

 

We've got a few of them (gotta throw rocks at them to get them to fly) in my squadron....

 

FC

[Stratos 3,191]

Thank's for the interesting explanations, is a shame we can't simulate SAC escort missions on SF :(

[crl848 9]

Good job done on the flight model of the single seaters. Too much Gs = stall. I struggle to get it to spin, and a quick forward push on the stick usually gets me back into flying trim. Still, makes you somewhat careful about hauling on the stick.

 

I find that the more difficult planes to fly are more satisfying - I rarely fly the F-16 or F-15. Plus I like the landing parachute on the Voodoo, the other early planes kind of miss that.

 

Trouble with the Voodoo, in all variants, is that it is a little useless. Bombing with one large conventional or nuke gets old after a while, and I got bored of the (equally excellent) F-106 when shooting down bombers - interceptor missions are not my cup of tea. And recon? Don't get me started. Dogfights may be unrealistic but they are fun, at least that's my opinion.

 

Overall, what's not to like? Well done to the Voodoo guys.

[Icarus999 70]

Since I saw that Erik and Blackfly where both working on it i decided to scrap mine and concentrate on other aircrafts

 

 

 

Thats a shame veltro it was a really nice model. You've been turning out some great stuff, thanks for all of your hard work

[Icarus999 70]

I'm curious about If anyone is using the Voddo as a fighter and what results is getting

 

 

Lexx is spot on The F-101B voodoo in its element ( High Altitude high speed slashing attacks) is a monster, its limitation is the pathetic missiles it was saddled with. The f-101B should have carried

later model Aim-9 missiles and perhaps even Aim-7 twards the end of its carrer it, such a shame it was neglected in that way. And why on earth was no serious attempt made to upgrade those pathetic Aim-4's into somthing that was actually usable, the Airforce really got ripped off on that missile!!!

[kct 5]

Probably because the Air Force is not interested in the Falcons anymore, at least since the later iterations of both the Sidewinders and the Sparrows started to appear on a large scale. That, plus everyone is buying the latter missiles.

[+Veltro2k 6,351]

Thats a shame veltro it was a really nice model. You've been turning out some great stuff, thanks for all of your hard work

 

 

Nahh Erik and Black are doing a fantastic job, But if a Buc is not confirmed as a ongoing WIP after i get the Jav out I might start to work on mine again

Edited December 12, 2008 by Veltro2k

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

Icarus, I have read the Swedes greatly improved the Falcon. Exactly how was not told. Its something I'd like to pursue sometime. The Draken interceptor used this missile.

 

If we assume a "hot war" over any extended time period, improvements in Voodoo loadout and rapid instead of decade long missile improvements must also be assumed. The early AIM-9B was a highly reliable, superbly dependable, and devastatingly effective new weapon in exactly the combat conditions the F-101A escort fighter was designed for. However, this was not known by USAF until some NAVY people did a little unauthorized experiment with their own missiles on Formosan F-86s and Chinese MiG-17s.

 

For what AIM-9B might do for Voodoo~esque combat tactics, czech out the article below.

 

Word search for... Turkey-Shoot

 

China and Taiwan since 1945; Part 1~> http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/index.php?...1&Itemid=47

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

er...no

 

Word search for Arrival of the Snakes

 

The Turkey part comes just below that.

[+Julhelm 266]

I've been trying out the F-101A in the SF2 Merc campaign and it really kicks ass against the opposition. Using energy management and high-speed slashing tactics I've been able to get real good kill ratios against the MiGs and Hunters. The F-101's ability to keep up it's high speed combined with the tactic of highspeed passes IMO negates whatever maneuverability advantage the slower MiG's have. It also gives those pesky IL-28 gunners less time to shoot you up.

 

Out of curiosity, Lexx, how would AAM's be carried on the F-101A/C in the event these get used for the fighter role in a conventional war?

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

Julhelm::

Out of curiosity, Lexx, how would AAM's be carried on the F-101A/C in the event these get used for the fighter role in a conventional war?

Very good question, and I haven't explored this yet since its so new in the sim (thanks TeamVoodoo).

 

Assuming best range, carry 3 belly tanks, and maybe a pair of underwing Falcon or Sidewinders, and maybe a pair of wingtip rails, or perhaps a pair of double launchers underwing for 4 Sidewinders/Falcons. Delete guns...at least for the sim because gun armed AI has a general desire to end up at sea level in slow turning gunfight. If all missiles are expended at high altitude, the AI stops attacking (SF 2006) so the AI dogfight problem won't generally happen, and *with some tweaking* the F-101 under AI control should be fast enough to stay ahead of ALL contemporary Soviet fighters even MiG-21F and Su-7 over time, and time is what these two Soviet fighters lack under afterburner.

 

Well those are some initial potential possible ideas anyways. Most likely better ideas are needed here.

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

Einstein I am. I forgot about it. 3 Falcons to start with. Where, I dunno.

 

The F-101A was to be equipped with APS-54 radar and was to be armed with four 20-mm cannon as well as three Falcon air-to-air missiles and 12 unguided rockets.

 

~ http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f101_1.html

[kct 5]

Underbelly doesn't sound like a good idea, unless we could do away with mounting of two of the tanks (leave the center tank alone), and place the tanks elsewhere. In the place of the moved tanks we could have two of the missiles, assuming we are talking about Falcons (with just enough space for Sidewinders).

 

As for what happens to the other tanks, they could be mounted beneath the wings. Attached to the tank pylons would be more launcher rails, and in the end they would be designed in a fashion similar to F-15's wing pylons (one large pylon for fuel tank, with a pair of missile rails attached to it). This would give it up to SIX AAMs. Not much, but better.