Questions for the experienced Camel drivers

[Dej 17]

As luck would have it I've not seriously tried the Camel before. Had a brief fling several releases ago and found her rather like my first wife, petite and pretty but bloody tempramental (with the emphasis on the latter two syllables!)

 

So my present campaign pilot now finds himself bereft of his beloved Tripe and saddled with the Widowmaker. I tried her out in QC and thank God I did! She's well-named 'Camel'. Not only does she seem to have the hump with me she often turns around and spits in my face. :black eye:

 

Just to check really that I'm not missing a trick, re: the OFF FM as opposed to the RL FM:

 

Should I expect to have to stick on loads of downward trim on the elevators?

I know she has a vicious and famous right hand turn but should she be so incredibly sluggish on the left?

Should I expect to bleed off energy so quickly in a zoom if she's tail-heavy... seems to stall sooner than is practical. I mean, I know her reputation for stall = spin but what's her best angle for a quick climb?

 

All that said, when trimmed and respected in Free Flight she is agile, hammerheads beautifully, barrels poorly (that's probably me), loops as well as the Tripe and sideslips and skids in a way that could be a real combat bonus. And I'm glad my TrackIR will be sorted tomorrow... I can't fly a Camel on Padlock!

 

So, how do I fly her aggressively and on 'the edge of the envelope'?

 

'Wooden Cross, Red Cross or Victoria Cross' they told us when we took delivery. I seem much more inclined toward the first two. :crutch00:

 

Any advice welcome, ta.

[Luiz Carlos 0]

As luck would have it I've not seriously tried the Camel before. Had a brief fling several releases ago and found her rather like my first wife, petite and pretty but bloody tempramental (with the emphasis on the latter two syllables!)

 

So my present campaign pilot now finds himself bereft of his beloved Tripe and saddled with the Widowmaker. I tried her out in QC and thank God I did! She's well-named 'Camel'. Not only does she seem to have the hump with me she often turns around and spits in my face. :black eye:

 

Just to check really that I'm not missing a trick, re: the OFF FM as opposed to the RL FM:

 

Should I expect to have to stick on loads of downward trim on the elevators?

I know she has a vicious and famous right hand turn but should she be so incredibly sluggish on the left?

Should I expect to bleed off energy so quickly in a zoom if she's tail-heavy... seems to stall sooner than is practical. I mean, I know her reputation for stall = spin but what's her best angle for a quick climb?

 

All that said, when trimmed and respected in Free Flight she is agile, hammerheads beautifully, barrels poorly (that's probably me), loops as well as the Tripe and sideslips and skids in a way that could be a real combat bonus. And I'm glad my TrackIR will be sorted tomorrow... I can't fly a Camel on Padlock!

 

So, how do I fly her aggressively and on 'the edge of the envelope'?

 

'Wooden Cross, Red Cross or Victoria Cross' they told us when we took delivery. I seem much more inclined toward the first two. :crutch00:

 

Any advice welcome, ta.

My Camel pilot died yesterday with 6 confirmed and 4 pending,DFC, in 8 missions.

He falls in a combat against 6 Albs , had downed two before taking shots from three more on it´s six.

Probably they cut me a cable, because I lose aileron control.It was difficult not to ending the mission to save my pilot, but I fly DiD, so I let the man find his fate.

The Camel is so agile , that in normal fight conditions you are out of range of an Albatross.You can turn on a dime, it climbs very quickly, and the two Vickers helps a lot in finishing fast your opponent.

I can fight one versus two Albs without too much fear,(not WITHOUT fear), usually bagging the two.

The range is about 333 miles, so good that I fly with 60% of the tank in most missions.

And, yes, TrackIR4 will help you a lot because upward view is not very good.

[Luiz Carlos 0]

Chew on this for a while

 

In the proper hands, it was a great weapon, if the pilot lived long-enough to learn it. In 1917 she killed so-many pilots, she was called the widowmaker. If you can get it up in the air, too steep a climb, it stalls. A tight turn at low speed, it stalls. A sharp turn to the left it climbs, a sharp turn to the right, it dives. If it turns too long, to the left, it stalls.

When you turn quickly to the right, if you're not expecting the dive, it's a killer.

High Rudder must be used in turns, when the aircraft is sideways, the rudder is used as a huge elevator.

It'll then turn tighter then anybody.

It then becomes a very dangerous weapon, with the twin guns, and the great sight.

IF you're still alive that is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtprTL66-FY

 

It's advisable to Go Medium until you feel confident, or perhaps you enjoy making new pilots, that I don't now

But,Uncleal , I would like to add that after proper training,you CAN fly it without fear, but you have to learn the tricks.Yes,using the rudder in turns is a great tip, and becames natural with time.

It´s not difficult to master it to any experienced flight simmer here.In real life they throw the poor young pilots into combat with 17 hours FLIGHT time(not COMBAT time)

It´s like to fly this beast without having previous experience with ANY flight simulator at all.

With the little difference we don´t have to risk our lifes...

[Offwatch 0]

After a couple of very short campaign with the Camel I was determined to learn to fly this plane.

 

I spent a week of just QC with the Camel, I am not sure how many hours but at least 8 after which I felt I was finally starting to get a good grasp of the plane although I would still spin or stall occasionaly (sometimes on purpose)

 

The tips that I have found to work for me, lots of left rudder, easy and smooth on the controls, throttling back while making any hard maneuver throttle back up when you are going straight and level. There is not a lot of feedback for the sim to give you a feel for when you are close to the edge, but with lots of cockpit time you will get better.

[Bullethead 12]

I find the Camel not to live up to its sinister reputation. It's not crank at all, flies hands-off quite easily, and doesn't like to spin unless you tell it to. OTOH, that "upwards spin" you can make it do if you try hard enough is quite useful sometimes.

 

The thing about the Camel is that you've got to watch your speed. If you get too slow, especially when nose-up, you can get yourself confused if you suddenly try to turn, because you can go into that "upwards spin". This isn't something you're likely to be used to, and not knowing what's happening can cause you to think something's horribly wrong. Then you can panic and kick the controls around, just getting yourself out of control.

 

So, just use a lot of bottom rudder in turns to keep the nose down so as not to lose too much speed. Then, if she goes flipping around unexpectedly, just relax and she'll come right out of it, usually without enough altitude loss to worry about even down in the treetops.

[Macklroy 2]

I'm absolutely in love with the camel. I must admit. Good speed and climb. Turns on a dime when you rudder into your turn. And those double mgs make for quite a knockout punch. Ive been doing nothing but QC for the last couple of days, trying to determine my preference in plane / time period. By now i've flown probably 80% of the British and American planes and the sopwith camel still 2nd to none of them. I think when my new rig arrives ill get a campaign pilot going. Then i'll see if the old bird can handle it out there in the real war.

 

S!

 

As for your questions dej im no expert but this is what i've come to learn about the camel in my short stint at her controlls...

 

 

*Should I expect to have to stick on loads of downward trim on the elevators? I'm not sure about how the camel performed in RL but I find about 10-12 clicks on the negative elevator trim works about right for my flying style.

 

*I know she has a vicious and famous right hand turn but should she be so incredibly sluggish on the left? Again, I'm not expert with the RL fm of the camel but i can tell you this. Turn right! If you are comming head on with your foe be sure to enter the merge keeping him on your right. This way you can use the camels unmatched turn to get into position quickly. I found that out very quickly. If you merge with the bandit on you left and try to turn that way the old bird wants to climb away and you end up loosing speed and your turn is not nearly as tight, and you may even stall out.

[Madmatt 0]

I have retired my former E-III pilot's and began to play the campaign flying with the 17th Aero Squadron up North in the Camel. While intel doesn't report much activity "officially", I am in the later half of June 1918 and been getting my appetite quite quenched with skies full of juicy enemy fighters and bombers. Right now I have 6 claimed air victories (plus one Ballon) in eight missions and a nice new medal to show for it.

 

My secret to keeping my crate on the huns six has been to cut my throttle when in tight turns and really use that rudder pedal to keep my line of fire true with a slight lead. Doing this, all the fancy manouevers in the world won't shake me and about the only real risk I have had is my own loss of Situational Awareness with regards to where exactly the ground is during some real close in knifefights. Clipped the tops of a couple of trees and had to emergency land once due to some incedental close encounters, but so far this has been my best piloting experience to date.

 

I can't recall all the different German squadrons I have been going up again most often, but they are kitted out in some nice colors and the missions have been a lot of fun. The 17th doesn't seem to have any famous personas flying for it, but I like it as right now I am the lead on the kill board. I have been going through a ton of wingmen though... :(

 

Anyway, just wanted to say that I have really grown to like the Camel. Just treat her with a steady, but somewhat gentle, hand and she will glide right into the slot where you want her.

 

For me at least, once I learned to nurse that throttle and ride that rudder, the true potential of this crate really began to shine through.

 

What a great game!

 

Madmatt

Edited April 16, 2009 by Madmatt

[Creaghorn 10]

i don't know who, but a camel pilot once said,

flying a camel gives you three choices of crosses in short time,

victoria cross

red cross

wooden cross

[Macklroy 2]

i don't know who, but a camel pilot once said,

flying a camel gives you three choices of crosses in short time,

victoria cross

red cross

wooden cross

 

 

and not always in that order.

[Olham 164]

DEJ: I know she has a vicious and famous right hand turn but should she be so incredibly sluggish on the left?

 

Her right hand turn was in fact so much better, that many pilots preferred to do a 3/4 right turn, instead of 1/4 left.

But I wonder, if the behaviour we experience, does also depend on the capability of your computer.

Cause, my system is lower range, and she behaves nicely and uncomplicated.

Perhaps the detailed FM characteristics of a plane would only be used and handled, if the rig can deal with all the data?

[Hasse Wind 46]

I haven't flown any campaign missions as a Camel pilot, but I've noticed the infamous Widowmaker isn't that difficult to fly successfully in QC. When I first tested the Camel, I expected it to be a very quick and nimble scout but dangerous to fly as a novice OFF player. Well, it is indeed quick and nimble, but I haven't yet lost any test pilots to the Camel spinning out of control. (Clouds are much deadlier in any plane!) My PC is mid range, but I don't know if that means anything to OFF flight models. But it sure is easy to bring down any Alb or Pfalz as a Camel driver! Dr.I's are more challenging, because they can turn with the Camel like no other Hun scout.

[Dej 17]

Thanks for all the input folks... sounds like I've too heavy a hand perhaps. The Tripe I could throw around the sky with abandon the Camel clearly needs more respect, although I'm intrigued that two respected pilots don't find her either a handful or quirky.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

Dej, the Camel has been my favorite plane for years, and the OFF version is as close as I have come across in terms of the reports given on its RL counterpart, but even at that I doubt seriously its as hard to fly here in the virtual skies as it was in the real world, (as noted by Bullethead). Here is another brief synopsis of its traits:

 

"The Camel was not considered pleasant to fly. The Camel owed both its extreme manoeuverability and its difficult handling characteristics to the grouping of the engine, pilot, guns, and fuel tank within the first seven feet of the aircraft, coupled with the strong gyroscopic effect of the rotary engine.

 

The Camel soon gained an unfortunate reputation with student pilots. The Clerget engine was particularly sensitive to fuel mixture control, and incorrect settings often caused the engine to choke and cut out during takeoff. Many crashed due to mishandling on takeoff when a full fuel tank affected the center of gravity. In level flight, the Camel was markedly tail-heavy. Unlike the Triplane, the Camel lacked a variable incidence tailplane, so that the pilot had to apply constant forward pressure on the control stick to maintain a level attitude at low altitude. However the machine could also be rigged in such a way that at higher altitudes it could be flown "hands off." A stall immediately resulted in a spin and the Camel was particularly noted for its vicious spinning characteristics.

 

The Camel was, however, a superlative fighter, and offered heavier armament and better performance than the Pup and Triplane. In the hands of an experienced pilot, its manoeuvrability was unmatched by any contemporary type. Its controls were light and sensitive. The Camel turned rather slowly to the left which resulted in a nose up attitude due to the torque of the rotary engine, but turned very sharply to the right which resulted in a nose down attitude. Many pilots preferred to turn left by turning 270 degrees to the right. Because it was tail heavy, the plane also looped quickly."

 

Also, in the book "Flying the Old Planes", Frank Tallman gives his critique on the Camel's quirks, and supports everything outlined in the Wikipedia quote above. For those who are not familiar with him, Frank Tallman was a veteran pilot who ended up as a stunt flyer in Hollywood, and in his long career logged many, many hours in vintage aircraft.

 

By the way, I often use the "270 degree right-hand" left turn when flying the OFF Camel. It works very well.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Always remember!... NO-ONE tames 'The Widowmaker'

[Interlocutor 0]

Hmmm. I do wonder if the PC's power has something to do with it, after reading these posts.

 

I have a fairly high-end system, and I first tried the Camel several weeks ago. I could not get the knack of it. Flew it with my "test pilot" in QC for about an hour a day in QC for several days. On my system, the un-trimmed Camel is very tail heavy, I have to keep the stick pushed somewhat forward in level flight to keep her from nosing up to stalling speed. I couldn't get her to loop without stalling, no matter how many different tricks I tried. And if I tried a sharp right turn, she almost always spun. I gave up in despair.

 

Then last week I decided to try again. Using my test pilot again, I started out trying sharp right turns. I discovered that if I ease over into a right bank (no quick snap right on the stick, just smoothly over until she's on her side), then gently apply left rudder to keep the nose up, and then cut throttle about half and pull back on the stick to use the elevator to quicken the turn, I can now make her turn on a dime, even applying nearly full throttle again once the turn is well underway.

 

For me the trick was to get her turned vertical with some finesse before applying the necessary nose-up rudder, then chop throttle to about 50% and pull back fairly sharply on the stick to get her turning fast. But I find I also have to be careful not to apply so much nose-up rudderr that she tries to climb in the turn, otherwise uh-oh, here comes the flat spin again. For me, on my system, right turns must lose altitude somewhat to avoid spins.

 

I've started a new DiD campaign pilot using the Camel, but I haven't yet mastered a loop without stalling. BH says his Camels loop as nicely as the Tripe, but either I haven't the knack yet, or the Camel flies differently on my PC than on his.

 

Did the real-life Camel have adjustable trim?

[RAF_Louvert 101]

Interlocuter, as with most of the WWI planes, the Camel has no in-flight trim controls. Also, you will need to build up a bit of speed before trying the loop, but in a dogfight the loop is really wasted motion. What you CAN do with the Camel quicker than with any other OFF plane I have flown is to pull it into the loop and then roll out at the top, (the classic Immelman). It will do this trick so fast your enemy won't know what hit him...but you'll know.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

Edited April 16, 2009 by RAF_Louvert

[Olham 164]

Yep, the Immelmann works very well; did that, when attacking a two-seater.

But when I read Interlocuter's careful handling the right turn, I ask myself again:

does perhaps my older rig not perform the whole trickyness of that crate?

Or is a pilot, who is used to a heavier plane like the Albatros, predesinated for flying her?

I find her easy to fly - with no problems at all.

And the next thing I'll try later today, would be a loop.

Edited April 16, 2009 by Olham

[Interlocutor 0]

Interlocuter, as with most of the WWI planes, the Camel has no in-flight trim controls.

 

Thanks, Lou, that's what I thought. I've been so thoroughly infected by Siggi's "DiD-ness" that I don't want to trim-out an aircraft that didn't have that capability in real life .

[Hasse Wind 46]

I don't consider myself a great OFF pilot - far from it! But I have similar experience with the Camel as Olham, it just doesn't feel so extremely difficult to fly it well, contrary to what I've read from the history books. Now the OFF Camel is definitely trickier to fly in combat than the Pup, but compared to the sometimes agonizing challenges I've had with the Pfalz D.III I say the Camel is a dream to fly in action. Like I wrote earlier, my PC isn't brand new, but isn't an old piece of **** either.

[Jimko 0]

I am not, by any stretch, an experienced OFF pilot, but since OFF is the only sim I fly, almost all my flight time is in the Camel...my favourite. It has to be flown with a delicate touch and proper control in tight turns. I really think that Pips gave a very good synopsis of handling the Camel and I can't think of much to add to what he said which was in this post:

 

http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showt...=38234&st=0

 

Much of what he suggested is what I had already learned to do by experimentation and by keeping in mind some of the original comments about flying the Camel.

Edited April 16, 2009 by Jimko

[Olham 164]

Interlocutor;

trim on the ground is allowed in DiD-rules, as it has been done by ground crew.

So, find out in flight, how many ticks of "nose down trim" she needs, remember that amount,

and use it at each start.

And you'll be within the DiD rules.

[Dej 17]

Interlocutor;

trim on the ground is allowed in DiD-rules, as it has been done by ground crew.

So, find out in flight, how many ticks of "nose down trim" she needs, remember that amount,

and use it at each start.

And you'll be within the DiD rules.

 

Just what I was going to say. Besides, as Lou's Wiki quote said:

 

However the machine could also be rigged in such a way that at higher altitudes it could be flown "hands off."

 

Hmm, being as the Immelmann was something I could only pull off rather clumsily in the Camel, I'm more and more convinced that it's my own heavihandedness on the stick that's partly behind her misbehaviour. As I noted, in free flight without the demands of combat manoeuvres she was very nice to fly... hence my question about 'pushing the envelope'.

 

More practice is undoubtedly the answer.

 

Thanks again all.

Edited April 16, 2009 by Dej

[Wels 2]

Hello,

 

in OFF, i find the Camel quite easy to fly, good-mooded, well-responding and almost without vicious reactions. There was a very old MS Flight sim (was it #2, or #4 ?) where there was a Camel modelled from original values and computer-calculated behaviour derived from the data. It even had a working showing-glass for oil pressure and had quite a good skin for the time.

This one is still THE measure for any Camel in a flight sim, it was definitely vicious already while starting, or trying to. Level flight was not easy at all, it always wanted to break out, or change its course. The nosing to the right and down was vicious because you would not get her level again with the ailerons at all. Counter action with the ailerons made it even worse.

Have a look at this and you might get the impression that the OFF's Camel is way too forgiving:

 

Maybe i should be carful what i ask for lol ...

 

Thanks and greetings,

Catfish

[Luiz Carlos 0]

Yep, the Immelmann works very well; did that, when attacking a two-seater.

But when I read Interlocuter's careful handling the right turn, I ask myself again:

does perhaps my older rig not perform the whole trickyness of that crate?

Or is a pilot, who is used to a heavier plane like the Albatros, predesinated for flying her?

I find her easy to fly - with no problems at all.

And the next thing I'll try later today, would be a loop.

I find it easy too and I know that I am not better than anyone...

It makes me think that the trick may be going soft with the stick.

If you are naturally careful to fly any crate you might not be entering in dangerous situations related to the flight envelope?

Or maybe it is just waiting to killing me in the next turn...

[Olham 164]

How stupid can a man be???

Now, I just wanted to make a new campaign flight with my Camel pilot David Marlowe.

Short after takeoff, I remembered, that I had promised Interlocutor, to try a looping in

this plane. I was some 500 - 600 feet high, and thought, that should do.

Comrades still at taking off - so, why not now?

I lowered the nose and zoomed down like for a dive attack; then I pulled her up and up.

First attempt became the Immelmann - I could not keep her on her back; she forced her

way round. Second attempt, I felt, I had to give a lot of rudder left - but I failed to keep

her on her back, and she smeared away sidewards, stalled, and crashed.

Now I have DiD set - so, goodbye, David Marlowe; you're just another of these newbies

on a tricky plane, who didn't make it. After three missions, man and four promising claims

gone to hell! (But I'll return! Next time, I'll be David Oldham!)

 

PS: great find, Wels!

Edited April 16, 2009 by Olham