Flyboys

[Mr. Lucky 0]

i am not sure, but as long as i know it's not intended to have full length. it was only to test some new sort of camera.

 

It was done as a camera test as well as proof of concept and quality for the digital camera. But there's been a rumor for some time, that he'd do a full length film of the same theme. He did made it in only 10 days IRC.

[JohnGresham 0]

aces high, one of the plots i like the most in ww1 aviation movies.

 

While Aces High suffers due to the quality of its effects and the decision (no doubt enforced by budget limitations) to use more contemporary aircraft, the writing and performances have a maturity and honesty about them which puts juvenile, silly efforts like Flyboys to shame. In case anyone is interested Aces High is basically an RFC reworking of R. C Sheriff's WWI play 'Journey's End' and it was adapted for the screen by English playwright Howard Barker.

[Creaghorn 10]

While Aces High suffers due to the quality of its effects and the decision (no doubt enforced by budget limitations) to use more contemporary aircraft, the writing and performances have a maturity and honesty about them which puts juvenile, silly efforts like Flyboys to shame. In case anyone is interested Aces High is basically an RFC reworking of R. C Sheriff's WWI play 'Journey's End' and it was adapted for the screen by English playwright Howard Barker.

 

really wonderful acting by malcolm mcdowell and the younger guy. overall good acting by everyone. not so much because the fighting scenes, although pretty good showing the horror in the faces when fighting.

[Hauksbee 103]

"Flyboys" was to WWI what "Memphis Belle" was to WWII.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

Actually, some of the best WWI action scenes and story lines were found in this weekly series:

 

A Great And Historically Accurate WWI Air War Series

 

 

Funny how often this one is forgotten when discussing this subject.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

[shredward 12]

If it is ever going to be done right, it will be Peter Jackson who does it. Unfortunately, it may never happen.

Cheers,

shredward

[Rickitycrate 10]

Has anyone seen the silent "Lilac Time" with Colleen Moore and Gary Cooper? I have not but am looking for a copy. Accidently saw a fun film 2 weeks ago called "Today We Live" a Joan Crawford film from 1933 with Gary Cooper. Not a flying film but does include some nice scenes of some sort of brit bombes on missions and fending off german scouts. Includes interesting scenes of brit torpedo boats. I wish I had recorded that one.

[themightysrc 5]

"really wonderful acting by malcolm mcdowell and the younger guy. overall good acting by everyone. not so much because the fighting scenes, although pretty good showing the horror in the faces when fighting."

 

Actually, the main strength of the film (such as it had strengths) was the quality of the scripting regarding the home base bits and bats. Unfortunately, it had a tendency to stray into well-worn cliche land, presumably to make it more recognisable to the Great Unwashed, rather than to cut a furrow without resorting to effectively 'stock' WWI stereotypical characters.

 

It's the best of a bad - no, atrocious - bunch. The definitive WWI air movie remains to made.

[+Polovski 417]

Don't forget Aces High good too though, good acting etc. "Wings" I am really enjoying that is very good in getting the feel right for the period 1915 and the struggle with the BE2 and the dreaded Eindeckers, with some surprisingly good historical points made in the story which proves it can be done AND made entertaining.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Don't forget Aces High good too though, good acting etc.

 

C'mon Pol..catch up m8! :biggrin:

[RAF_Louvert 101]

I'm tellin ya, it's "Dastardly and Muttley" all the way. They even got the medals right.

 

 

 

.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

 

actually, they ONLY got the medals right

 

 

.

[Typhoon 5]

Has anyone seen "Passchendaele the Movie"? I don't think there is any flying in it but it is supposed to show the horrors of life and death in the trenches. I do have a copy of it, but am waiting until I have my Home theater finished to view it. so I can get the full effect. IIRC it was shot in Shredward's home province of Alberta 2 yrs ago.

 

Tony

[Tonyo - legion 2]

IMHO Flyboys & red Baron sucked,

 

The best films were

 

Blue Max, Aces High & Dawn patrol. - have yet to see wings

[shredward 12]

Has anyone seen "Passchendaele the Movie"? I don't think there is any flying in it but it is supposed to show the horrors of life and death in the trenches. I do have a copy of it, but am waiting until I have my Home theater finished to view it. so I can get the full effect. IIRC it was shot in Shredward's home province of Alberta 2 yrs ago.

Tony

 

Yeah, I went right away to see it on the big screen. Not to be missed!!! It wasn't the movie that I expected, but it was great nevertheless - it didn't focus entirely on the battlefield. Before it even got to France, it explored the motivations of why people went over, and the world that the Great War interrupted. Don't read 'chick flick' into that, cause it's not. But when it does get to the battlefield, and the horror of Passchendaele - it is the full Monty. Hunker down in your deepest chair, turn off the lights, turn up the volume, and hang on!!!

Cheers,

shredward

[Roopod 0]

The Great Waldo Pepper (1975)

Howard Hughes' Hell's Angels (1930)

 

Although I liked Flyboys (Widescreen Edition) (2006) if you cut out all of the luvy duvy parts.

[Duce Lewis 3]

Well, your search is over.

 

"The Blue Max" is just the opposite of "Flyboys": The flight scenes (all real and filmed in Ireland, no computer cartoons) are simply magnificent.

 

The story (which centers on defending the "honor" of the German officer corps) is a tad lame but Ursula is wonderful to look at and Jeremy Kemp is perfect as a German aristocrat.

 

And George Peppard? "I love it when a plan comes together!".ttt

Thanks tt but I have The Blue Max already

 

I agree, the flying scenes are excellent

D7's Pfalz's, & a few Triplanes all painted in generic camo

There were only 1 or 2 Se5's and the rest Tiger Moths for the Brits

But they did an excellent job using the Se's for all the close-ups and just filling the background with the Moths

 

The grounds scenes in Blue Max were pretty bad though

Aside from his obvious battles with the squadron commnder and his Ace nemesis, I don't think Stachel conversed with any of his squadmates

They just stood around and stared at him much like Lurch in the photo Olham posted a couple days ago

...Hey, maybe this was accurate depiction after all

 

I'm putting high hopes on Hells Angels though

Real WWI craft, filmed in-air not computerized

And Howard Hughes was a real pilot so I'm thinking there's agood chance for accuracy

Or maybe I'm just building my hopes up again

[JohnGresham 0]

Thanks tt but I have The Blue Max already

 

I agree, the flying scenes are excellent

D7's Pfalz's, & a few Triplanes all painted in generic camo

There were only 1 or 2 Se5's and the rest Tiger Moths for the Brits

But they did an excellent job using the Se's for all the close-ups and just filling the background with the Moths

 

The grounds scenes in Blue Max were pretty bad though

Aside from his obvious battles with the squadron commnder and his Ace nemesis, I don't think Stachel conversed with any of his squadmates

They just stood around and stared at him much like Lurch in the photo Olham posted a couple days ago

...Hey, maybe this was accurate depiction after all

 

I'm putting high hopes on Hells Angels though

Real WWI craft, filmed in-air not computerized

And Howard Hughes was a real pilot so I'm thinking there's agood chance for accuracy

Or maybe I'm just building my hopes up again

 

The Blue Max is far from perfect, but I think your criticism really misses the point of the film. Stachel is from the very outset treated as an outsider. His humble background seems to stand in sharp contrast with the middle class and aristocratic nature of the rest of the Jasta and they privately mock him for it. His fierce determination to prove himself their equal by his ruthless pursuit of the blue max is seen as distatseful and ungentlemanly by his colleagues. This is reflected in the film's decision to portray Stachel as a loner who does not mix socially with the rest of the Jasta, with the excepion of the aristocratic Willie, but this is not friendship, this is class warfare.

Edited May 14, 2009 by JohnGresham

[Duce Lewis 3]

The Blue Max is far from perfect, but I think your criticism really misses the point of the film. Stachel is from the very outset treated as an outsider. His humble background seems to stand in sharp contrast with the middle class and aristocratic nature of the rest of the Jasta and they privately mock him for it. His fierce determination to prove himself their equal by his ruthless pursuit of the blue max is seen as distatseful and ungentlemanly by his colleagues. This is reflected in the film's decision to portray Stachel as a loner who does not mix socially with the rest of the Jasta, with the excepion of the aristocratic Willie, but this is not friendship, this is class warfare.

I'm sure there were class tensions in a royal monarchy government/society

But Stachel shows up and imediately demands a D7 instead of a Pfalz

As a mere greenhorn, he antagonized the 2 top aces, disobeyed commands in the air

Finally, he seduces the General's wife

 

In all this time, he says not word 1 to his squadmates

Peasant or Kaiser Wihelm's son, he was acting like a jerk

 

In Vietnam, at the height of racial tensions, black & white soldiers had no trouble sharing a foxhole

In a way it may have done its part in the healing of racial unrest

 

How long would Stachel last in the air if he etablished no bonds with his squadmates?

Far better if they had shown how the comeraderie of war bonded people of different classes together

Upturned noses turn to upturned glasses in the pub after a harrowing patrol

 

Cheers,

[JohnGresham 0]

I'm sure there were class tensions in a royal monarchy government/society

But Stachel shows up and imediately demands a D7 instead of a Pfalz

As a mere greenhorn, he antagonized the 2 top aces, disobeyed commands in the air

Finally, he seduces the General's wife

 

In all this time, he says not word 1 to his squadmates

Peasant or Kaiser Wihelm's son, he was acting like a jerk

 

In Vietnam, at the height of racial tensions, black & white soldiers had no trouble sharing a foxhole

In a way it may have done its part in the healing of racial unrest

 

How long would Stachel last in the air if he etablished no bonds with his squadmates?

Far better if they had shown how the comeraderie of war bonded people of different classes together

Upturned noses turn to upturned glasses in the pub after a harrowing patrol

 

Cheers,

 

I'm sure that was the situation in Vietnam and yes and it would have been a different movie if Stachel and the Jasta had made more of an effoirt to get on with each other, but that's not what happens in the film. It dramatizes something very different. It's drama comes from the class conflict and Stachel's ambition (to get the medal), take that away and you have no drama. Stachel is ruthlessly ambitious to progress. His ambition is fuelled by resentment when Heidermann enquires about his parents background the first time they meet. It's clear at this point that Stachel is not going to fit in here. His sense of dislocation is emphasized by the scene in the truck when he enquires how many aircraft Von Klugermann has downed, and is informed that gentlemen do not make such enquiries. Therefater he effectively cuts himself off from the other members of the Jasta, he exists as a loner, he's not part of the group. It's clear he's treated as an outacst by the rest of the Jasta when no-one wants to fly on patrol with him. The film creates an extreme situation and derives its drama and tension from this.

 

Seducing General Klugermann's wife, who is also Willie's mistress, is one of the ways Stachel tries to demonstrate that he is both the equal and better (in bed) of those who are socially superior to him and try to exclude him. Is he acting like a jerk? Well, he's certianly an anti-hero in many respects, but the film really makes it difficult to sympathize with or like anyone. For all his ambition, skill and ruthlessness Stachel never achieves the acceptance he seeks and his death is manufactuered and manipulated by the officer class to ensure he does not disgrace them, while rejecting him one the one hand, they also hypocritically celebrate him as a German hero.

 

One final point worth remembering was just how deeply those class divisions existed at the time. 80 squadron (I think) refused to accept James McCudden as their CO because he didn't have a public school background...and then Mick Mannock was appointed their CO some time afterwards...odd coincidence that.

Edited May 14, 2009 by JohnGresham

[tttiger 0]

Excellent analysis, JohnGresham and dead on.

 

The Blue Max is as much (or more) about class warfare as it is about WWI warfare.

 

These themes are explored much more deeply in the book, which I highly recommend to those who have not read it. There is only so much story that can be crammed into a movie (even a rather long one as this is). It's a wonderfully complex and insightful story.

 

I respectfully really have to disagree with Duce Lewis on a couple of points:

 

In all this time, he says not word 1 to his squadmates

Peasant or Kaiser Wihelm's son, he was acting like a jerk

 

In Vietnam, at the height of racial tensions, black & white soldiers had no trouble sharing a foxhole

In a way it may have done its part in the healing of racial unrest

 

On the first, it was made clear to Stachel on the day he arrived he would never fit in. His father, as I recall, managed (owned?) a very small hotel. The families of his squadron mates all owned hunting lodges. They were the ones who froze Stachel out, so who was being the jerk?

 

As far as racial relations during Vietnam, I was a Military Police officer for much of that war and I don't think a day or night went by when we didn't have to respond to a conflict between black and white soldiers, often quite bloody. It was just as true "in country" as it was at posts in CONUS.

 

Soldiers may have shared foxholes in a firefight but otherwise race (rather than class) warfare was constant and ugly. I was very, very proud of my black MPs who handled those situations with remarkable professionalism on a daily basis.

 

Like the class warfare of WWI, it's incredibly hard to describe to those who weren't there just how brutal it was. Very little of it ever made it to the public eye.

 

Maybe that's why I've been working on a novel about racism during Vietnam for many years but never can quite nail it down.

 

Anyway, go buy the book "The Blue Max." Stachel is a much more complex character and more corrupt than in the movie. But so are all the other players.

 

Tony

Edited May 14, 2009 by tttiger

[Duce Lewis 3]

One of the ongoing themes of Flyboys was the racial tension surrounding the black pilot, Eugene Skinner

Early on, the son of a rich man, Brandt Lowry refuses to bunk with Skinner

Later Skinner saves Lowry's life and he has some thinking to do

He pulls out some rare scotch that he'd lifted from his old man and goes to Skinner, hat in hand

 

I found this scene quite believable and it illustrates a basic truth

Life is more important than race, social standing ...pretty much any earthly thing

They both had a common need, survival, that forces them to overcome their differences/animosities

 

Now if Lowry had survived, would he have married a black woman or courted a bevy of black friends

Not likely as racism runs deep and can take generations to heal

But I'm sure Lowry would never have looked at a black man the same again

The rush to judgement wold not be so quick because he had personally experienced a black man of superior skill and courage

 

As a 20 victory Ace I'm sure Stachel must have saved his squadmates many times

Think of the scrapes that he and Willi must have gotten into in their Triplanes

...and how they covered each others tail and fought their way home

Such experiences build comeraderie

 

Sadly Blue Max never gets beyond the Social Status issue

Stachel's squadmates spurn him regardless of their common need for mutual support

How do you attain the cohesivness required for seamleess cooperation in the air if you won't even talk to each other on the ground?

Stachels only verbage was arguments with his CO and verbal duels with Willi

 

Then on top of it, he steals Ursula from Willi

Pretty brassy (and stupid) to steal the girl of the guy who's watching your back in the air

 

I purchased Flyboys at the same time as The Blue Max and watched them on the same day

Maybe that's why the difference in squadron comeraderie really jumped out at me

I found myself thinking "say something" every time Stachel and his Lurch squadmates got together

 

I'm sure social status was far more important in a turn of the century monarchy than it is today

But as I said Life surely supersedes Social Standing

I'd find it far more believable if the General or Adjutant couldn't get over the class warfare issues

Their lives didn't depend upon Stachel's

 

Many here like Blue Max and really dislike Flyboys

But IMHO, Flyboys got it right on the ground and Blue Max got it right in the air

 

Cheers,

 

btw. great debate guys!

[rabu 9]

Has anyone seen "Passchendaele the Movie"? I don't think there is any flying in it but it is supposed to show the horrors of life and death in the trenches. I do have a copy of it, but am waiting until I have my Home theater finished to view it. so I can get the full effect. IIRC it was shot in Shredward's home province of Alberta 2 yrs ago.

 

Tony

 

The first 1/4 of the movie, A Very Long Engagement, really gets you into the trenches and the horror of war for a young man forced to leave his sweetheart at home. Pretty amazing scenes.

 

Take a look at this scene from the movie on YouTube (click here)

Edited May 15, 2009 by rabu

[JohnGresham 0]

One of the ongoing themes of Flyboys was the racial tension surrounding the black pilot, Eugene Skinner

Early on, the son of a rich man, Brandt Lowry refuses to bunk with Skinner

Later Skinner saves Lowry's life and he has some thinking to do

He pulls out some rare scotch that he'd lifted from his old man and goes to Skinner, hat in hand

 

I found this scene quite believable and it illustrates a basic truth

Life is more important than race, social standing ...pretty much any earthly thing

They both had a common need, survival, that forces them to overcome their differences/animosities

 

Now if Lowry had survived, would he have married a black woman or courted a bevy of black friends

Not likely as racism runs deep and can take generations to heal

But I'm sure Lowry would never have looked at a black man the same again

The rush to judgement wold not be so quick because he had personally experienced a black man of superior skill and courage

 

As a 20 victory Ace I'm sure Stachel must have saved his squadmates many times

Think of the scrapes that he and Willi must have gotten into in their Triplanes

...and how they covered each others tail and fought their way home

Such experiences build comeraderie

 

Sadly Blue Max never gets beyond the Social Status issue

Stachel's squadmates spurn him regardless of their common need for mutual support

How do you attain the cohesivness required for seamleess cooperation in the air if you won't even talk to each other on the ground?

Stachels only verbage was arguments with his CO and verbal duels with Willi

 

Then on top of it, he steals Ursula from Willi

Pretty brassy (and stupid) to steal the girl of the guy who's watching your back in the air

 

I purchased Flyboys at the same time as The Blue Max and watched them on the same day

Maybe that's why the difference in squadron comeraderie really jumped out at me

I found myself thinking "say something" every time Stachel and his Lurch squadmates got together

 

I'm sure social status was far more important in a turn of the century monarchy than it is today

But as I said Life surely supersedes Social Standing

I'd find it far more believable if the General or Adjutant couldn't get over the class warfare issues

Their lives didn't depend upon Stachel's

 

Many here like Blue Max and really dislike Flyboys

But IMHO, Flyboys got it right on the ground and Blue Max got it right in the air

 

Cheers,

 

btw. great debate guys!

 

And that's the whole point of the film. There is no cohesion in the Jasta once Stachel arrives. He disrupts their world with his class background, his ambition, his desire and his ungentlemanly condusct. This is not a film about social cohesion, and comradeship. Social prejudices run deeper than any shared goal, comradeship or common enemy in the drama of the Blue Max.

 

As I said before, bedding Katie is all about proving he's Willie's equal and better, the tensions in the Jasta are such that Willie, or another Jasta member is just as likely to be responsible for his death as the allies. This is not a drama about forming bonds and friendships, you may think his actions stupid, but his actions are fueled by the sense of resentment he feels about the way he is treated by the rest of the Jasta.

 

While you might feel the film never moves beyond the depiction of social tensions, the obvious answer is that it can't move beyond this, because the characters are so entrenched in their social prejudices and class divisons that they won't allow it. Clearly you want it to be a different sort of film and a different sort of drama, but then it wouldn't be The Blue Max. Stachel's pursuit of the medal is not about glory, heroism or patriotism, the medal proves that he's just as good as Heidermann, as Willie and all the other social snobs in the Jasta. That's one of the reasons I prefer it over something like Flyboys. The Blue Max is essentially a deeply personal drama and tragedy played out against an epic backdrop. The enemy is not the allies, the enemy (for Stachel) is the aristocratic, manipulative, hypocritical, German officer class. There are no cartoon villians and no clear cut heroes in the film, just a bunch of deeply flawed characters, thrown together, who are all mired in their own social prejudices and struggles.

 

As I said in my previous post, it's worth remembeirng that those social divisions did really run that deep - see the McCudden example.

 

Anyway, I get the feeling that rather like Stachel and Willie we're going round in circles on this one, so that's me done with it, but it's been fun.

[Olham 164]

Hell's Angels - for the great Zeppelin scenes alone

 

The Blue Max and Aces High for the athmosphere of the airfields and fights then

 

The Red Baron - for the feel of some (other, not the Baron's) Jasta, and (mostly) good aircraft scenes

 

The Magnificent Men and their Flying Machines - for the great humour

Edited May 15, 2009 by Olham