For the Devs/OBD team

[Tamper 9]

Gentlemen,

 

Having followed OFF since P1, and now utterly happy with P3&HITR, and also following other developments in the WW1 flight sim arena, I wondered if you'd share your thoughts on a few questions:

 

What you've been able to do with OFF, considering where you started (CFS3) is nothing short of remarkable, by almost any account. I find it fascinating that OFF currently (more than) holds it's own against the biggest comparable product - which was a 'ground-up', stand alone development. This isn't really a new question, but how much more can really be done while still 'shackled' to CFS3? Of course, we've all heard talk of P4 - and, believe me, I've no doubt you can wow the crowd once again...but, man, there must be a limit somewhere, no?

 

Is the difference strictly limited to having a new 'engine'? I somehow think there might be more to it than that, but I don't know much about it.

 

What would be involved in this 'engine'? Time, money? (sort of obvious, money *lol*) What I'm getting at is what level of support (by the community) would be required to put the tool in your hands? There is an incredible confidence in you guys, and I'd bet many people would pay a reasonable sum just to see what you could do when *not* tied down to CFS3.

 

Do you really foresee a point where you can wrestle no more out of CFS3, and would of necessity have to find a different approach? Would you be able to re-use any of your previous efforts? (Like the *ton* of effort, and resulting volume of info, that gives OFF it's uniquely historical elements).

 

I know much of what I ask is speculative, and not at all easy to answer. Some of it might be sensitive in terms of what you can divulge publicly. But, you guys are generally far, far better with communicating to this community than what I see elsewhere...and there are so many people who enjoy what you've done. One can't help but wonder what might be possible - and how you see the possibilities.

 

I appreciate anything that any of you care to share.

 

Best regards.

[+Polovski 460]

Not much I can say that hasn't been said many times, but there's a lot more that can be done with CFS3 engine, already many aspects of P3 are better than many flight sims out there (some of the best scenery and AI out there for example) and P4 will still add more yes.

 

Yes time and money would be involved for a new engine. 2 problems

1) Suitable available engine that can cope with the whole of the western front, and not restrict action to certain areas, and not only populate small areas at a time, or have restrictions on that, cope with WW1 combat requirements (and better than now and contain all we have?)

2) Money

 

If someone would like to step forward with both of those then we are listening ;)

 

We are looking as always for options and engines.

 

However we have already raised the bar some with P4 work so far, all I can say is watch this space.

We won't divulge too much until we are somewhere nearer the end. We like to keep you on your toes :)

[catch 81]

Well Pol if you ever need a hand actor for P4 I'm there ! I've been watching closely the hand signals in The Blue Max and I reckon I've got 'em down pat now. I'm prepared to waive the (very reasonable) fee such is my enthusiasm for the upcoming P4

[Dej 17]

Pol,

 

You and your fellow geniuses behind OFF have often noted in similar responses to similar questions that one of the things that delays you is the fact that there are only two modellers on the OFF team.

 

Now I, and others too, have repeatedly expressed a willingness to subscribe to some kind of 'development budget'. So, in terms of money, could not members of the OFF community subscribe to commissioning a model and skins from a skilled modeller 'out there' thereby reducing the 'time to market'. I'm not proposing even that people can select what they'd want to sponsor - you guys would name the craft, those who wished to would cough up. I'd do it willingly, although perhaps I'm lucky I've no particular axe to grind in favour of one machine over another.

 

Sorry for the slight hijack Tamper.

[+Winder 32]

Gentlemen,

 

Having followed OFF since P1, and now utterly happy with P3&HITR, and also following other developments in the WW1 flight sim arena, I wondered if you'd share your thoughts on a few questions:

 

What you've been able to do with OFF, considering where you started (CFS3) is nothing short of remarkable, by almost any account. I find it fascinating that OFF currently (more than) holds it's own against the biggest comparable product - which was a 'ground-up', stand alone development. This isn't really a new question, but how much more can really be done while still 'shackled' to CFS3? Of course, we've all heard talk of P4 - and, believe me, I've no doubt you can wow the crowd once again...but, man, there must be a limit somewhere, no?

 

Is the difference strictly limited to having a new 'engine'? I somehow think there might be more to it than that, but I don't know much about it.

 

What would be involved in this 'engine'? Time, money? (sort of obvious, money *lol*) What I'm getting at is what level of support (by the community) would be required to put the tool in your hands? There is an incredible confidence in you guys, and I'd bet many people would pay a reasonable sum just to see what you could do when *not* tied down to CFS3.

 

Do you really foresee a point where you can wrestle no more out of CFS3, and would of necessity have to find a different approach? Would you be able to re-use any of your previous efforts? (Like the *ton* of effort, and resulting volume of info, that gives OFF it's uniquely historical elements).

 

I know much of what I ask is speculative, and not at all easy to answer. Some of it might be sensitive in terms of what you can divulge publicly. But, you guys are generally far, far better with communicating to this community than what I see elsewhere...and there are so many people who enjoy what you've done. One can't help but wonder what might be possible - and how you see the possibilities.

 

I appreciate anything that any of you care to share.

 

Best regards.

 

Like anything there are limits to the CFS3 engine but really we are a long way from the CFS3 engine already and each day takes us further away....P4 is being worked on at a frantic pace and its all good so far.

 

Pol has hit the nail on the head - what I consider a replacement engine for CFS3 simply has not materialised yet.

OFF covers the whole theater of the western front including the UK - there is no engine out there currently that covers this size of theater with all the combat requirements we have - but I am still, and always will be, looking.

 

The P4 in development will blow you away as usual...

 

WM

[Olham 164]

Sounds promising enough for me.

And I assure you all: I'm not sitting here twiddeling my thumbs in waiting for P4 -

when my work is done, I jump into the cockpit and fly every cent and so much more out of P3.

(And there are still crates I haven't even tried yet!)

[Creaghorn 10]

i would guess that one of the heroes and a big asset behind the scenes is rex hannover. the more coding is revealed, the more you might get out of this engine. but just a guess.

[Olham 164]

PS: to be constructive here - what the German members of the "Krauts vs Crumpets" campaign

agree on most to be changed, is the AI behaviour during fights.

 

It would be great, if it engaged aggressively for 5 - 10 minutes, and then climb out and re-assemble

(covering each other) to fly home. No massakres, that only end, when one flight is totally wiped out.

 

That would give us much more realistic kill rates.

 

An element, that also needs some skillful improvement, is the vertical fighting.

I have to watch it again and again, that my wingmen get slaughtered by Nieuports, which I can kill

quite well by using more vertical tactics.(Flying: Albatros - of course! Lol!)

Edited February 16, 2010 by Olham

[Siggi 10]

Something I'd like to see is lone recon flights, they're totally absent from OFF.

 

I'd also have said I'd like a more challenging AI, but maybe it's us who have become too good? Look at Airshark's 90+ kills with less than 40 combat-hours flown. That's what's kind of killing OFF for me at the moment, the sense of achievement just isn't in it any more and the top medals have acquired jamboree-bag status. I'm not sure what a solution to that might be...making the AI's DM incredibly robust (because I seriously doubt anymore can be got from CFS's AI flying ability) or making 90% of the player's rounds dud?

[Olham 164]

Siggi: I'm not sure what a solution to that might be...making the AI's DM incredibly robust

(because I seriously doubt anymore can be got from CFS's AI flying ability) or making 90% of the player's rounds dud?

 

Naw, that would all be only distorting the player's achievement.

The only way is, to make the AI fight even more clever and tactically right.

And to build in a re-assembling and withdrawal from the fight; to make it "natural".

[Creaghorn 10]

Something I'd like to see is lone recon flights, they're totally absent from OFF.

 

I'd also have said I'd like a more challenging AI, but maybe it's us who have become too good? Look at Airshark's 90+ kills with less than 40 combat-hours flown. That's what's kind of killing OFF for me at the moment, the sense of achievement just isn't in it any more and the top medals have acquired jamboree-bag status. I'm not sure what a solution to that might be...making the AI's DM incredibly robust (because I seriously doubt anymore can be got from CFS's AI flying ability) or making 90% of the player's rounds dud?

 

in my hombrew. no visible indicators of hitting the enemy from the distance (IMO big time arcadish cheat), also with wide spread bullets (you have to get close), also without visible bullets, later with visible tracersmoke (you have to get even closer because you), hard guns (harder to shoot down), wind buffeting, made my kills more realistic. have so far 12 kills in almost 400h flight.

if AI could rejoin and get away, then it would be really perfect. that's the only and most important part wich is missing. but at least for me, so far my stuff satisfies me regarding realism. it's those little unrealistic and arcadish things wich makes shooting down too easy. so far i sorted them out as much as i could. when i use my version, and there is a smarter AI regarding rejoining in future (after 3-4 minutes of fighting) , you would have, if any, only a handful kills as it was in real. that would be perfect (though maybe for some chestpounders too boring)

[Von Paulus 8]

Naw, that would all be only distorting the player's achievement.

The only way is, to make the AI fight even more clever and tactically right.

And to build in a re-assembling and withdrawal from the fight; to make it "natural".

Yes. The AI should have more evasive and fighting tactics. But to be honest I don't know much about how was that aspect in WWI air combat.

 

I complete understand the reasons pointed by the devs, but one fact remains. CFS3 is a stigma, that OFF brings with him.

Whenever I speak to people that exists another WWI combat flight sim besides RoF, that has a real SP dynamic campaign, that has no online requirement, that has several planes at the player disposal in four sides, that it is really immersive and true in terms of historical content people in general get excited. But the next moment I referred that OFF uses the CFS3 engine, they just shutdown their brains and erase the last 5 minutes of talking with me about OFF.

I get angry and frustated; it's really hard to change prejudices.

I think OBD and OFF deserves more.

There's is one way out. It's to keep supporting OBD efforts, and maybe one day, who knows....

[Hasse Wind 46]

CFS3 is indeed a stigma for OFF. I've talked about this in many fora, and people are always almost scared when they realize OFF is built upon the ruins of that sim. It's really hard to try to convince them otherwise.

 

About the huge kill numbers. If I some day had a pilot with 400 hours (like Creaghorn repeatedly has), he would most likely have over 1000 kills. I just find it impossible NOT to get involved in so many fights all the time. It's not possible for me to avoid the AI attacks all the time. And when the fighting starts, I usually have no other option but to shoot down everybody myself, because most of the wingmen are unable to do it. And soon I will have a pilot with only a few flight hours and about 20 kills, and that feels bad and unrealistic.

 

I've solved this problem by concentrating more and more in flying bomber careers. It's much more challenging to shoot down hordes of enemies when flying a bomber, and you can use you recon/bombing missions as good excuses for not entering combat all the time, which leads to realistic flight hours and kill numbers. And it's quite fun and challenging to try to survive the war as a bomber pilot.

[Olham 164]

Von Paulus: I get angry and frustated; it's really hard to change prejudices.

 

One of the major problems of mankind - prejudice.

I do believe Winder, when he says, there is still enough for more in the CFS3 engine.

But it would of course be much better for sales, if it could just get integrated in the OFF disc,

and just be mentioned in the liner notes/credits somewhere.

 

I'm afraid though, that MS would still charge too much money for their engine.

 

Hasse Wind: I've solved this problem by concentrating more and more in flying bomber careers.

 

I think, Creaghorn has found a way to fly his missions without so many kills.

Perhaps you can give us some details, how you avoid so much fighting/kills, Creaghorn?

[Tamper 9]

*lmao* If I could play devil's advocate a moment, here...let me say that I must *really* suck at this game, because I find it plenty challenging. Although I don't play as much as some of you probably do - and therefore might not notice the issues you have (say, the bit about AI not disengaging)...I do still find it challenging to stay alive...

 

But, as I said, I just pretty much write that off as "I suck" *lol* Point for me is: Please remember this is a game, and some people want to play just for enjoyment. If you make it substantially harder - even if it's more realistic - then some people might be turned off by it. It's plenty hard enough for some of us

 

Anyway, I do appreciate everyone's inputs...this is exactly the sort of dialogue I had hoped to achieve on the subject. Do carry on!

[Siggi 10]

*lmao* If I could play devil's advocate a moment, here...let me say that I must *really* suck at this game, because I find it plenty challenging. Although I don't play as much as some of you probably do - and therefore might not notice the issues you have (say, the bit about AI not disengaging)...I do still find it challenging to stay alive...

 

But, as I said, I just pretty much write that off as "I suck" *lol* Point for me is: Please remember this is a game, and some people want to play just for enjoyment. If you make it substantially harder - even if it's more realistic - then some people might be turned off by it. It's plenty hard enough for some of us

 

Anyway, I do appreciate everyone's inputs...this is exactly the sort of dialogue I had hoped to achieve on the subject. Do carry on!

 

The beauty of OFF is it's been made highly configurable.

 

The problem is that even on it's hardest setting it's now become too easy for the most experienced players.

[Hasse Wind 46]

One of the great things about OFF is that it can be configured to suit every player's skill level. If somebody wants to fly on easier settings, they should have the option of doing that. And hardcore players should have their own setttings. That way everybody is kept happy.

 

And whatever flaws the sim may have, it's still the best WW1 sim available.

[Creaghorn 10]

<br /><b>Von Paulus</b>: <i>I I think, <b>Creaghorn</b> has found a way to fly his missions without so many kills.<br />Perhaps you can give us some details, how you avoid so much fighting/kills, <b>Creaghorn</b>?<br />

<br /><br /><br />

 

my solution wich works for me so far is to make up a little bit AI's stupidity to regain formation.

 

when there is a fight, of course i join and try to get or try to evade. as soon as the enemy goes for the deck and i have a chance to catch him, i follow, but i try hard never to trade fixation with disadvantage, so i'll rather let him go and stay above to keep my SA. if there are other enemies around, i let him go big time and don't follow. so if my personal skirmish is over after some minutes, and there no immediate danger or a wingman in immediate trouble, i continue my course, no matter if there are smokepuffs of archie somewhere low or still some fight nearby, wich i just couldn't see at the moment. usually that would be the moment for everybody to rejoin. since AI doesn't do that, i simulate rejoining by flying along my course by myself to the moment i can warp (no tac, but trying occasionally X after some miles), my wingmen are joining automatically when warping and the patrol continues. it might happen later you run into the same enemy squadron again, or no others at all or very different ones.

[Morris 2]

Dear WINDER & POLOVSKI,

 

Thanks for the info. I have been sending PM to some of the pilots flying OFF about the future of P4 because i cant sleep at night not knowing.

 

I personally feel that the current engine is the hallmark of what is making OFF so great and that maybe a new engine will not work (look at Rise of Flight) I should have just deposited the cash that i paid for ROF into OBD account for some beers while u are working on P4.

 

Good night. I'm going to bed.

 

Morris

[Olham 164]

To warp, I must always get far enough away from enemies, to allow warp.

Are your wingmen still alive then?

 

I never tried it your way, but will do now.

[sitting_duck 3]

1) Suitable available engine that can cope with the whole of the western front, and not restrict action to certain areas, and not only populate small areas at a time, or have restrictions on that, cope with WW1 combat requirements (and better than now and contain all we have?)

2) Money

 

If someone would like to step forward with both of those then we are listening ;)

 

We are looking as always for options and engines.

 

 

 

 

I belive numerous attempts have been made in the past by pilots wishing to donate to the cause (remeber the mug and tee shirt episode?)....and all have been turned down by the devs.

 

dont think im too far off the mark when i say there are alot of pilots who really want to contribute to what you are doing, both to show their appreciation, and to help. This is something we want to do...all you have to do is tell us how....

[carrick58 23]

Something I'd like to see is lone recon flights, they're totally absent from OFF.

 

I'd also have said I'd like a more challenging AI, but maybe it's us who have become too good? Look at Airshark's 90+ kills with less than 40 combat-hours flown. That's what's kind of killing OFF for me at the moment, the sense of achievement just isn't in it any more and the top medals have acquired jamboree-bag status. I'm not sure what a solution to that might be...making the AI's DM incredibly robust (because I seriously doubt anymore can be got from CFS's AI flying ability) or making 90% of the player's rounds dud?

 

 

I am in full agreement with Sggi.

[Creaghorn 10]

To warp, I must always get far enough away from enemies, to allow warp.

Are your wingmen still alive then?

 

I never tried it your way, but will do now.

 

 

mostly they are, and mostly lot of enemies also, wich makes it realistic. would only be cool if i wouldn't need to simulate it by myself but the sim itself. BTW, it's always touching and immersive to see when coming back to your airfield or regain again, that one member or so is missing.

[Rickitycrate 10]

Dear Winder and Pol, Thank you for always treating us with the respect that you have shown besides your efforts to bring the WWI aircombat experience to us. Thank you Tamper for starting this well written thread, it has been on all our minds I think. I trust what Winder and Pol have said and I look forward to the future.

 

For those of us that find the challenge lacking now after hundreds of hours of flight time may I suggest after selecting the most difficult settings in Workshop that perhaps you might fly some other craft with different flight characteristics and maybe one gun instead of two. The earlier planes are more challenging just as in R/L. For another experience go up as an observer and see how good you are at that, challenging. I am far from bored or whatever because I mix things up a lot. That and the fact that I'm not very good.

[Olham 164]

Siggi: I'm not sure what a solution to that might be...making the AI's DM incredibly robust...

 

Carrick and Siggi, I assure you, the DM of enemy craft is robust enough. Yesterday I fired 500 rounds

or even more into a SPAD VII from close range, until it finally collapsed.

And today, I fired quite a lot into two Nupe 17, which are more fragile, but these two lasted pretty long.