F-105 air superiority fighter variant.

[MigBuster 2,861]

The SAMs are severely undermodeled, so is flak. Firing patterns are off, launches are weird, no tricks are used, warheads are wrong, sites are fixed, no FC radars for AAA etc etc... A realistic air defence setup in SF2V would mean you sweat from the moment you enter the North to the moment you leave.

 

Funny how so many things are undermodeled but we all play it.

 

 

No but Ive gone through the YAP versions and that certainly does make you sweat all the way - have even borrowed some of the guns and stuck them in the stock game to make it better.

 

The SA-2F was an unavoidable death ray out of the box which it certainly wasn't judging by the way pilots account on how they avoided SAMs in 70 - 72- its probably gone too far the other way now where it doesnt track sometimes even in level flight - still must be a nightmare for TK getting these little things tested - or to please everyone. Does he implement it like the real SA-2 - in which case does he then make it worse again to create the effect from all the jamming going on by EW flights not modelled in the game. In 1972 these things seem to have been mostly launched ballistically! - so does he nullify them totally then or make the single jamming pods really effective?

[squid 21]

- simple, the falcon series are a maze lol ... AF, BMS, Open Falcons, Free Falcons, Red Vipers, etc etc etc :P

- LO improves by every patch ofcourse, but overally is not Falcon to its hardcore aspect

[Fubar512 1,350]

The SAMs are severely undermodeled, so is flak.

 

While flak may be somewhat thin in-game, as opposed to what it was like in RL (as far as WoV & SF2V are concerned), that can be easily rectified, to the point of simulating the NVA's "black sky" air defense strategy. Also, radar fire control for AAA is available in 3rd-party add ons, and Diego's working on an accurate SON-9A model.

[Wrench 9,461]

I was gonna say, we've had a Firecan for nearly 3 years now...may not LOOK exactly right, but it damn sure in networked!!!

 

wrench

kevin stein

[Lt. James Cater 62]

The SAMs are severely undermodeled, so is flak. Firing patterns are off, launches are weird, no tricks are used, warheads are wrong, sites are fixed, no FC radars for AAA etc etc... A realistic air defence setup in SF2V would mean you sweat from the moment you enter the North to the moment you leave.

 

Funny how so many things are undermodeled but we all play it.

 

Dive deep into the world of WOV GOLD and you will quickly learn to fear the flak!

[UnknownPilot 33]

Yes most patches make a difference because the AI gets tweaked in nearly every patch over the years I would say. I commend TK for the amount of effort he has put into the AI over the past 8 years - you need to remember that unlike IL2 (ww2) and LOMAC(Modern) TK has to cover a vast time period in SF2 of changing airframes, tactics and weapons so he has done pretty well by himself considering. And it sound like you are using the game post 1984/5 which is out of the games time period - the best Soviet missiles are the extremely pants AA-7C/D and AA-8 in the stock game - which TK no doubt has the MiGs trying to employ these within certain parameters.

 

Your AI experience will differ depending on what year you are flying (and settings) - I think that the friendly and enemy AI exhibit different behaviour and might be separate entities - buts that's logical - if we know TK the enemy is following the Soviet doctrine of GCI controlled fighting tactics - which kinda goes with the most advanced MiG being the MiG-23 with pants missiles - Although as you say there could be improvements in how the 23 fights- Once you beat its BVR Apex shot its got to get on your tail or go for slashing gun attacks which I cant imagine is that easy against F-16s anyway tbh.

 

I have noticed that the friendly AI is ok if it has good missiles - aka the AIM-9L, but take away the missiles it tries to get into a turning fight and gets slaughtered - take out a flight of F-100, F-4, F-8 (and even the F-15A in 1976 ) and they will get taken apart by MiG-17Fs or MiG-19S's with guns.

 

 

So the enemy AI is strong at turning fights(in the right frame), and head to head guns, - you may also notice that unlike years back the MiG-23 and 21 often keep high energy states, so gunning them down like ducks at a shooting range in an A-1/A-4 is thankfully less likely. Also last time I went BVR the enemy AI can render BVR SAHM shots totally useless by breaking radar locks sending the AIM-7 ballistic - this was a welcome improvement.

 

Both sets of AI are poor under ultra low level - apart from when escaping missile shots or running for it.

 

Tactically you will notice (when only poor missiles are about) that the AI will play the carrot and stick - you go chasing one MiG - but another is creeping up on your tail - I turn off the enemy jet map icons btw and they are very effective at creeping up on your tail under most situations if you dont check 6.

 

 

Now you mention evading - unlike in IL2 the MiG in the 70s has to consider missile shots from afar and might get a radar lock on it from another jet miles away - in which case needs to try to avoid that also - so this is another reason they might not seem to want to get you - I base this on how the AI reacts when you are in an F-100D in 1960 when they definitely do go out of their way to kill you.

 

I know this is an old post, but I just had a mission experience that got me to thinking about it again.

 

Set in '64 with crap missiles. I took an F-8B (TMF) up north for a tangle. It randomly generated a messload of MiG-17 Fresco As. And they were fodder. Here's the result -

 

 

10 kills. All guns (both 9Bs missed [predictably]). And the only thing that prevented it from being even more than that (at LEAST 11) is that I was basically out of fuel, I had to break it off and Alt-N to make it back. (I say at least 11, because I know there was one more around, not sure about more than that, perhaps, perhaps not, I was starting to think there was no end in sight lol)

 

They did the same thing for about 90% of the mission - fly straight and level, riding stall speed. They occasionally moved a bit to make it trickier to shoot them, but not too much, and only one of them ever actually shot at me.

 

It's starting to look like this is an early year thing. But most 17s that I see do just this. It's kinda messed up.

 

 

Regarding another comment you made, yes... I've been dragged and bagged a few times. And each time I'm slightly annoyed, somewhat ashamed, but also actually happy - glad that they are able to do that. lol

[Gr.Viper 131]

No jams???

[squid 21]

only peanut butter

[+Gocad 26]

Nice shooting, but what's with the AIM-9B bashing?

[+Dave 2,318]

Nice shooting, but what's with the AIM-9B bashing?

 

Easy, AIM-9B sucks ass. In game and real life.

[Spinners 15,968]

A bad workman always blames his tools...

[+Gocad 26]

Easy, AIM-9B sucks ass. In game and real life.

 

To be honest I thought so too for a long time until I (re)read some comments regarding the importance of the ACM/gunnery training of the Crusader pilots and how it affected their use of the AIM-9:

After all, to reach a gunnery position a pilot has to fly through the AIM-9 envelope.

 

That sentence made me think...and change the way how I use the AIM-9B. It felt like I had been enlightened.

[+Dave 2,318]

A bad workman always blames his tools...

 

 

The stats do not lie. I mean when actual Mig killing fighter pilots say it sucked, then you know it's the tool.

 

To be honest I thought so too for a long time until I (re)read some comments regarding the importance of the ACM/gunnery training of the Crusader pilots and how it affected their use of the AIM-9:

After all, to reach a gunnery position a pilot has to fly through the AIM-9 envelope.

 

That sentence made me think...and change the way how I use the AIM-9B. It felt like I had been enlightened.

 

 

You are 100% correct but again it goes back to the missile itself being poor. Thus the extra work you had to do to get to that envelope.

[+Gocad 26]

No doubt, using the AIM-9B means extra work, but it's one of the rare moments where 'work' actually means 'fun'.

[Gr.Viper 131]

A perfect AIM-9B launch in the game means perfect distance, letting the seeker to growl for a second or two, flying level, getting the target the moment it stops maneuvering and tries to regain energy in level flight. That way you get at least 50% efficiency.

[UnknownPilot 33]

Viper, no jams. I switch to 2 guns rather than 4, to save ammo mostly, but also help defend against jams a bit (well, not so much prevent them, as allow me to get more shots by only jamming the working ones and then having reserves). But I also try not to shoot under heavy G load, and in VERY short bursts. Long bursts and high G loads seem to be the 2 things that create jams (individually, let alone together).

 

But the issue was that the 17s weren't fighting. They were just sitting there and on occasion putting in some effort to not get shot, but they essentially never turned aggressor, they never acted like fighter pilots, and they were never a threat to me. Since MigBuster and I were talking about what causes the AI to do what, he was saying that they do this out of fear of missile shots in the good missile era, and I can understand that, but '64 is not the good missile era, not by a long shot.

 

 

Regarding the 9B.... you don't necessarily pass through it's envelope to get a gun kill. The 9B is quite insensitive, takes forever to get lock, is dead rear aspect only, and can't track in a turn. Essentially they are only good against targets that can't turn, like bombers. Much like the AIM-4.

 

Many of those kills in that mission were high deflection shots in a dive, or on a snap then they shot across my nose. No 9B envelope there. Others were from times that I got right up on them from dead 6 and had to take the shot before I ever got tone. Again, no 9B envelope there.

 

When I did take the shots, I waited until they locked and tried to get the MiG when it was changing direction or stopped moving, or was not pulling many Gs, but the 9Bs never even TRIED to track. They got lock, I let them go, and off they went like rockets, not missiles. Basically dead weight. It takes far more effort to get them to work than it does to gun the enemy down, and costs too much fuel and time.

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

Michele's Clashes book notes that during most if not all (forgot) the Vietnam War, missile testing was done at high altitudes against non manuevering drones, or something like that. For its planned role at high altitude, say for F-105 replacing F-101A as penetration fighter, against non manuevering PVO interceptors trying to catch SAC bombers, AIM-9B could be a wonder weapon. One of my fave Myth Buster stories is acig's account of the....

 

 

 

Turkey-Shoot on 24 September

:

:

The air battle on 24 September actually signalized the end of the contest in the air, then – with their fighters having an advantage in high-altitude performance, but acting as perfect targets for CNAF Sidewinder-armed Sabres when flying that high and in a straight line, and also being at a considerable disadvantage when attempting to manoeuvre against the Sabre at a lower level – the Chinese pilots subsequently became much more careful when engaging in air combats. They could not know if all or only some of Nationalist F-86s were armed with AIM-9Bs and consequently had to expect a sudden attack from any of them. Furthermore the PLAAF could not know the performance of the AIM-9B at lower levels: it only knew that the missile functioned perfectly at high altitudes, where no aircraft could not manoeuvre very hard because of the rare air.

 

Lexx: I'd add also clear air and good seeker performance at high altitudes, and few ground distractions.

 

Besides, at a lower altitude the inexperienced PLAAF and PLANAF pilots were no match for intensively trained CNAF F-86-pilots, even most junior of which had at least 1.000 hours on the type. In fact, even the pilots of the VMF-323 had to admit in embarrassment that their FJ4 Furies – although faster and able to fly higher – could not turn with Nationalist Sabres, especially not bellow the levels of 25.000ft.

 

:

:

 

~ China and Taiwan since 1945; Part 1

~ http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=151&Itemid=47

[+Dave 2,318]

Viper, no jams. I switch to 2 guns rather than 4,

 

Is that a new feature? Never heard of it in the time I have been flying this series since 2002.

[UnknownPilot 33]

Is that a new feature? Never heard of it in the time I have been flying this series since 2002.

 

 

SF2:V is really my first experience in the series. I did buy SFP1 back when it launched, but never got too deeply into it as my IL2 squad (well, those who also liked jets) went with LOMAC and I got that as well and got into that and more or less forgot about SF until december 09, then found SF2:V, and here I am.

 

It was there pre-Feb 2010 patch, so I can't really say when it was added. And I don't recall which key combo it is. I have it mapped on my Cougar to hat 4 up and down. L & R raises and lowers my ripple amount, Shift L or R increases or decreases ripple time, and U & D (or forward and back in this case really) cycles through the gun combos. This works for when you are carrying gun pods too (you can go just external, or just internal, or both, etc).

 

Not all planes allow this however. I've noticed that the F9F-8 doesn't (um.... I THINK it's the Cougar.. it's been awhile since I used it, but I'm pretty sure it's that one).

[Gr.Viper 131]

Dave, gun group selection key is yout friend. Works on 2+2 guns of F-8, 1+1 gun of Kfir (that one even has gun LEDs in cockpit) and whatever gun pods you put on. Oh, and if you stick a pit in stock F-84F you'll see guns split into 3 groups, I think.

[+Dave 2,318]

Dave, gun group selection key is yout friend. Works on 2+2 guns of F-8, 1+1 gun of Kfir (that one even has gun LEDs in cockpit) and whatever gun pods you put on. Oh, and if you stick a pit in stock F-84F you'll see guns split into 3 groups, I think.

 

That is damn cool. I never knew that. Thank UP and GR for the heads up. Can't believe I missed that feature. You guys are awesome.

[UnknownPilot 33]

 

 

More on the original topic... what about that speed brake? I've thought of this as just a what-if for myself, never having heard about any plans or proposals for making the 105 more fighter.

 

What I was thinking was X-31 style thrust vectoring. It opens for full A/B, and laterally for brake. Why not have the top and bottom coordinate in pitch? If the sides move just slightly out, then they aren't in the way and the hinge mechanism could be redesigned. For the game, AFAIK it should just be a coding thing, right? I don't really know how making TVC's effect works, or how the animation works, but since they already are animated to some extent, I thought it might be possible (without any further 3D work).

 

It doesn't address range, but could provide more pitch control authority, and depending on T:W (especially if it was given a little more juice), it might end up being beneficial. ....hypothetically at least.

[FastCargo 412]

There is no pitch linked (ie works fully up and down) thrust vectoring that works in flight control authority and proper visual effect (AB). There have been various workarounds, but the most effective ones I've seen demoed require a LOD alteration to have a decent AB effect. Also, and I don't know if the animations for the speedbrake and nozzle are hardcoded or not, but if they are, there may be conflicting issues that again could only be solved by redoing the LOD.

 

FC

[UnknownPilot 33]

There is no pitch linked (ie works fully up and down) thrust vectoring that works in flight control authority and proper visual effect (AB). There have been various workarounds, but the most effective ones I've seen demoed require a LOD alteration to have a decent AB effect. Also, and I don't know if the animations for the speedbrake and nozzle are hardcoded or not, but if they are, there may be conflicting issues that again could only be solved by redoing the LOD.

 

FC

 

 

Yeah, given how it worked, I didn't think it would work with the A/B on. I was envisioning something for mil power. Though... I suppose it could still work in A/B, it would just constrict the flow a bit and lessen it's thrust (IRL).

 

But like you said, it comes down to the animation itself as to whether it would require a new LOD. And that is out of my league unfortunately. :(

[MigBuster 2,861]

Dave, gun group selection key is yout friend. Works on 2+2 guns of F-8, 1+1 gun of Kfir (that one even has gun LEDs in cockpit) and whatever gun pods you put on. Oh, and if you stick a pit in stock F-84F you'll see guns split into 3 groups, I think.

 

Yes first thing i press after takeoff if the jet allows - double your ammo time - and it often needs to be doubled in an F-100