Thoughts about P4

[JFM 18]

Just as an FYI, I was reading yesterday an account (from either LvR or Göring, forget which at the moment) that described bullet smoke trails during a fight. Also, there is a photo of Berthold sighting his Alb D.III's guns (for an example, look on page 32 of Greg VanWyngarden's Albatros Aces of World War 2, Part 2) and white smoke trails are very large and very discernible.

[Creaghorn 10]

Just as an FYI, I was reading yesterday an account (from either LvR or Göring, forget which at the moment) that described bullet smoke trails during a fight. Also, there is a photo of Berthold sighting his Alb D.III's guns (for an example, look on page 32 of Greg VanWyngarden's Albatros Aces of World War 2, Part 2) and white smoke trails are very large and very discernible.

 

hi jim,

 

could you please pm me a pic with the white smoke, so i can take a look and try to make the BHAH trail look the same, if possible?

 

thank you.

[JFM 18]

Emailed it over, CH.

[Hasse Wind 46]

I did some digging through my books and finally found something about the introduction of tracer and incendiary bullets. This comes from Flying Guns: World War 1 by Anthony G. Williams and Emmanuel Gustin, page 14.

 

"The first rifle-calibre incendiary bullets - actually explosive/incendiary which detonated on impact - were introduced into Austro-Hungarian service 1914 for ground-based anti-balloon guns. The Pomeroy, Brock and Buckingham entered British service in .303 in (7.7 x 56R) calibre during 1916, the RTS the following year. Germany followed suit in 1916/1917 with 7.92 x 57 Phosphor-F bullets apparently based on the Buckingham, and Austro-Hungary produced improved ammunition in 1917. Tracer bullets in rifle calibres were also fielded; the first British attempt being the SPK of 1916, developed by Aerators Ltd of Edmonton. This was a solid copper bullet, bored out to accept a filling of 1.17 g barium peroxide (with 12% magnesium). The involvement of Aerators led to SPK being dubbed 'Sparklet', the name of the mineral water sold by this company, although the official designation was the somewhat less handy 'Cartridge SA Tracer SPK, .303 in Mark VII.T.' This was soon replaced by the SPG (adopted as the 'SPG .303 in (VII.G) Mark I.z') which used a bullet of more conventional design, somewhat easier to make, and carrying slightly more tracer compound. This could trace over to 700 m."

 

So in OFF for the British and also for the French, as they used the same Lewis and Vickers guns in their aircraft, tracers and incendiaries should become common in 1916, and for the Germans in very late 1916 or early 1917. The Americans come in 1918, when everybody is already using those bullets.

[Creaghorn 10]

I did some digging through my books and finally found something about the introduction of tracer and incendiary bullets. This comes from Flying Guns: World War 1 by Anthony G. Williams and Emmanuel Gustin, page 14.

 

"The first rifle-calibre incendiary bullets - actually explosive/incendiary which detonated on impact - were introduced into Austro-Hungarian service 1914 for ground-based anti-balloon guns. The Pomeroy, Brock and Buckingham entered British service in .303 in (7.7 x 56R) calibre during 1916, the RTS the following year. Germany followed suit in 1916/1917 with 7.92 x 57 Phosphor-F bullets apparently based on the Buckingham, and Austro-Hungary produced improved ammunition in 1917. Tracer bullets in rifle calibres were also fielded; the first British attempt being the SPK of 1916, developed by Aerators Ltd of Edmonton. This was a solid copper bullet, bored out to accept a filling of 1.17 g barium peroxide (with 12% magnesium). The involvement of Aerators led to SPK being dubbed 'Sparklet', the name of the mineral water sold by this company, although the official designation was the somewhat less handy 'Cartridge SA Tracer SPK, .303 in Mark VII.T.' This was soon replaced by the SPG (adopted as the 'SPG .303 in (VII.G) Mark I.z') which used a bullet of more conventional design, somewhat easier to make, and carrying slightly more tracer compound. This could trace over to 700 m."

 

So in OFF for the British and also for the French, as they used the same Lewis and Vickers guns in their aircraft, tracers and incendiaries should become common in 1916, and for the Germans in very late 1916 or early 1917. The Americans come in 1918, when everybody is already using those bullets.

 

is there anywhere mentioned when they started to use it regularly in airwar?

[Hasse Wind 46]

Unfortunately no accurate date is mentioned. It's probably impossible to say it for sure. But in 1914-1915 they seem to have experimented with all kinds of weird stuff, like elephant gun calibre bullets (over 10 mm) with incendiary and explosive properties, and in 1916 with the introduction of normal rifle-calibre tracers and incendiaries they quickly become common issue, at least among Entente air forces, because they were so extremely useful in air combat and not much more difficult to manufacture than regular bullets. Germans followed later, so the 1917 date you have in your tracer mod currently is best suited for them.

[Creaghorn 10]

Unfortunately no accurate date is mentioned. It's probably impossible to say it for sure. But in 1914-1915 they seem to have experimented with all kinds of weird stuff, like elephant gun calibre bullets (over 10 mm) with incendiary and explosive properties, and in 1916 with the introduction of normal rifle-calibre tracers and incendiaries they quickly become common issue, at least among Entente air forces, because they were so extremely useful in air combat and not much more difficult to manufacture than regular bullets. Germans followed later, so the 1917 date you have in your tracer mod currently is best suited for them.

 

the date in the mod is just a suggestion and how i do it. at least IMO trailersmoke etc. began when "real" airwar started in end of 1916 or better 1917. but everybody how he likes best

[Hasse Wind 46]

This is a fine example of how difficult it sometimes is to find some reliable historical information. One would think that such a simple thing as the development and general acceptance of tracer and incendiary ammunition would be well-documented, but that certainly doesn't seem to be the case in reality. It would be nice to be able say that "this type of round became common in June 1916" or that "Jasta 6 received their first boxes of tracer bullets in January 1917" but unfortunately that seems to be impossible.

 

Things are so much easier in WW2 sims, because by then tracer and other bullets had been in common use for years.

[Creaghorn 10]

This is a fine example of how difficult it sometimes is to find some reliable historical information. One would think that such a simple thing as the development and general acceptance of tracer and incendiary ammunition would be well-documented, but that certainly doesn't seem to be the case in reality. It would be nice to be able say that "this type of round became common in June 1916" or that "Jasta 6 received their first boxes of tracer bullets in January 1917" but unfortunately that seems to be impossible.

 

Things are so much easier in WW2 sims, because by then tracer and other bullets had been in common use for years.

 

you are right. the date of the appearence is not necessarily the same like the date of common usage in airwar. the dates i use i have from literature and biographies, so it's definitely a guess, but it also makes perfect sense.

[Waldemar Kurtz 1]

is there anywhere mentioned when they started to use it regularly in airwar?

 

Buckingham was first used by the RFC on the Western Front in July 1916 when they were used to attack ground troops.

page 165, column 2, paragraph 2 of "Early Aircraft Armament" by Harry Woodman..

 

the Pomeroy was restricted to British Home Defence squadrons and seems to have been put into action in mid-1916.... no exact date. for the sake of simplicity, one might guess than June or July of 1916. there was an order of 500,000 rounds placed in this year-- which were almost certainly dedicated to anti-zeppelin flights.,

 

the Brock zeppelin bullet had an order placed in October of 1915 and a follow-up order on May of 1915. interestingly enough, the order was completed in December of 1916. so it's possible that incindiary could be introduced as early as... perhaps... actually, this bullet was considered mediocre so... June - July of 1916 is still the time when incendiary starts getting used in combat with the RFC. an external link helps explain

 

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1919/1919%20-%200895.html

 

additionaly, Woodman points out on pge 167 of his book that one of the reasons the over-wing Lewis was used for so long is because it was the most effective mount for anti-zeppelin sorties. it helped prevent the pilot from being blinded by the muzzle flash, it helped keep the ammunition from cooking off. syncrhonization gears were still prone to failure. if there was cook off (the shells exploding in one's face) it was safer if it were above the pilot on the wing.

 

Harry Woodman's book is very good-- and also very expensive and hard to find. I felt very luck to get a used copy for less than $100 from South Africa. however, right now, there are some pretty great deals on this book.

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0874749948/ref=sr_1_1_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1280168881&sr=8-1&condition=used

[Hasse Wind 46]

Thanks, Waldemar. Sounds like an interesting book.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Waldemar, that does sound like an excellent book Sir. I've only ever read excerpts from it myself, but I have seen it referenced often enough that I should look into a copy of my own. I noticed several on Abe Books for under $40. I might just go and spring for one.

 

.

[Waldemar Kurtz 1]

.

 

Waldemar, that does sound like an excellent book Sir. I've only ever read excerpts from it myself, but I have seen it referenced often enough that I should look into a copy of my own. I noticed several on Abe Books for under $40. I might just go and spring for one.

 

.

 

damn! a lot of old timers must be passing away! I felt absolutely lucky to find this thing for $70 five or six years ago! for a long time the cheapest availabe copy was just over $100... and that was after looking at amazon, borders, and abebooks every month for the better part of a year!

 

it's considered one of the best books every written on the subject of aircraft armament prior to 1918. so even though you guys could get the book for half the price I paid for it-- it still felt like it was worth the money I invested in it. the other book cited on this thread, by Williams and Gustin, is also a good find.

 

I still prefer the Woodman book because of the schematics, the chapter on gun-sights, and the fact that it's just all-around well researched. he even takes several paragraphs to tackle the mythology of the "dum dum bullets".

[Guest British_eh]

Hi there,

 

Sounds like a very good book. I can get one at Amazon.com for a great price. Thanks for the recommedation.

 

Cheers,

 

British_eh

 

Buckingham was first used by the RFC on the Western Front in July 1916 when they were used to attack ground troops.

page 165, column 2, paragraph 2 of "Early Aircraft Armament" by Harry Woodman..

 

the Pomeroy was restricted to British Home Defence squadrons and seems to have been put into action in mid-1916.... no exact date. for the sake of simplicity, one might guess than June or July of 1916. there was an order of 500,000 rounds placed in this year-- which were almost certainly dedicated to anti-zeppelin flights.,

 

the Brock zeppelin bullet had an order placed in October of 1915 and a follow-up order on May of 1915. interestingly enough, the order was completed in December of 1916. so it's possible that incindiary could be introduced as early as... perhaps... actually, this bullet was considered mediocre so... June - July of 1916 is still the time when incendiary starts getting used in combat with the RFC. an external link helps explain

 

http://www.flightglo...20-%200895.html

 

additionaly, Woodman points out on pge 167 of his book that one of the reasons the over-wing Lewis was used for so long is because it was the most effective mount for anti-zeppelin sorties. it helped prevent the pilot from being blinded by the muzzle flash, it helped keep the ammunition from cooking off. syncrhonization gears were still prone to failure. if there was cook off (the shells exploding in one's face) it was safer if it were above the pilot on the wing.

 

Harry Woodman's book is very good-- and also very expensive and hard to find. I felt very luck to get a used copy for less than $100 from South Africa. however, right now, there are some pretty great deals on this book.

 

http://www.amazon.co...&condition=used

[+Lothar of the Hill People 6]

I did some digging through my books and finally found something about the introduction of tracer and incendiary bullets. This comes from Flying Guns: World War 1 by Anthony G. Williams and Emmanuel Gustin, page 14.

 

"The first rifle-calibre incendiary bullets - actually explosive/incendiary which detonated on impact - were introduced into Austro-Hungarian service 1914 for ground-based anti-balloon guns. The Pomeroy, Brock and Buckingham entered British service in .303 in (7.7 x 56R) calibre during 1916, the RTS the following year. Germany followed suit in 1916/1917 with 7.92 x 57 Phosphor-F bullets apparently based on the Buckingham, and Austro-Hungary produced improved ammunition in 1917. Tracer bullets in rifle calibres were also fielded; the first British attempt being the SPK of 1916, developed by Aerators Ltd of Edmonton. This was a solid copper bullet, bored out to accept a filling of 1.17 g barium peroxide (with 12% magnesium). The involvement of Aerators led to SPK being dubbed 'Sparklet', the name of the mineral water sold by this company, although the official designation was the somewhat less handy 'Cartridge SA Tracer SPK, .303 in Mark VII.T.' This was soon replaced by the SPG (adopted as the 'SPG .303 in (VII.G) Mark I.z') which used a bullet of more conventional design, somewhat easier to make, and carrying slightly more tracer compound. This could trace over to 700 m."

 

So in OFF for the British and also for the French, as they used the same Lewis and Vickers guns in their aircraft, tracers and incendiaries should become common in 1916, and for the Germans in very late 1916 or early 1917. The Americans come in 1918, when everybody is already using those bullets.

 

Great info, Hasse Wind. The dynamic version of Creaghorn's smoke and tracer effects mod, included in just-released OFFbase 0.8.5, uses this to make these ammo types available roughly as they were historically: Elite British squads first, Poor German squads last. Prior to that, muzzle flashes only! Give it a try, everyone.

[nbryant 8]

How about making it available in less than two weeks! :)

[CaptSopwith 26]

Ah yes, it has been a while hasn't it? I remember when we used to call it P4... gads, was that really back in 2010??

Edited December 19, 2012 by _CaptSopwith

[+matt milne 5]

unfortunately if you keep adding to the list of features the product never gets finished. At some point a line has to be drawn under the core features, with the rest left for expansions or future releases.

[CaptSopwith 26]

Indeed! I for one, can't wait to hear your new soundtrack Matt. From what I've heard in the previews, it sounds amazing. Hope you're doing well!

[Olham 164]

"Was lange währt, wird endlich gut."

 

(English saying for this: "Things come to those who wait."

The direct translation would rather be "What takes long to finish, will become good in the end.")

[+Lothar of the Hill People 6]

"Was lange währt, wird endlich gut."

No kidding, Olham. But glancing back through this thread it's neat to see how much impatience has stirred the community to action. Suggested P4 features including different ammunition types, improved maps, tracking of squadmates' activities in the air, writing reports even without kills (great for two-seater campaigns), dawn patrols, easier claims for the British (and French), more realistic and interesting injuries, automatic profiles for DiD and RSS settings--all are available to some extent now in OFFbase with supported mods. And the added investment in pilot characters and their relationships with other squadmates through the role-playing element gives more consequences to combat, making death scarier and helping to control that human element to unrealistic kill totals. Never mind the increased difficulty.

 

WOFF will undoubtedly outdo many of these half-baked implementations, but there's plenty of fun to be had in the air (and on the ground!) while we wait! And you promised to try it now that Creaghorn's historical smoke and tracer bullets have been implemented. Plus I know you'll appreciate the new built-in field-of-view manager that supersedes the mislabeled controls in the Workshops. Links to all the supported mods are on the OFFbase download page as well. I suggest using the RSS realism profile you'll see in the mod manager, which dynamically adjusts difficulty across time for each nation.

 

I look forward to hearing what you think of the experience, Olham.

 

Remember as always to backup your pilots and unlimitedpilots.xml just in case (which I'm sure you do regularly anyway). OFFbase will backup your Workshops settings and CFS3Config automatically.

[Olham 164]

Lothar, I wrote you a PM to tell you, that I won't be able to fly before the new year.

Too many duties, official, social and private ones keep me grounded.

(I was never one to squash some flying inbetween, in tired or half-baked moods.)

 

But sure, what you have built together with a handful of good and helpful souls

should be THE solution for anyone who would like to use one or several mods,

and who is unsure about how to install the Jones Generic Mod Enabler -

as your package seems to do it all per one JSGME install.

 

Even a modding-shy safety-freak like me should be able to handle that.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Olham

[Britisheh 0]

I think that for many WOFF is going to be a nice treat, but many have found adequate replacements. Lothar's idea will help in filling a bit of a gap, but at some point ( I was hoping this Christmas) it is reasonable to put out a product, even if not perfect. The screen shots look incredible, but I am surprised to see it is more than 2 years now that we have been looking at the great upgrades.

 

Cheers,

 

Britisheh

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Yes Britisheh, I am also surprised how long it has been. It was two and a half years ago when I posted the following, looking forward then to Christmas 2010:

 

 

 

 

It was funny then, but less so now. And yet, little Louie still waits in hope.

 

.

[Olham 164]

Yeah, the suffering of the waiting - may almost be as hard as the suffering of the ones making it.

Mmuahahahahahaaaaa!!!!