shock and awe

[ONETINSOLDIER 2]

My nephew recently came home on his first leave and has brought home some strange news.

Now, granted I was only an army brat of the 60's, but I figure I got my 9 years in , in a roundabout way, but I got just one question.

Who fooked up my beloved army!?!?!?!? He says he hasnt shined one pair of freakin boots, and that airborne dont even wear corchorans and blouse thier trousers.

What the hell happened? And whats with this "relaxed" basic training?

 

WHO'S RESPONSIBLE?

[+Old Diego 66]

Sometimes I wonder that myself. Don't get me wrong. I understand the boot thing - can't polish suede. I won't get into the "we had it rougher" contest but I get an uneasy feeling of something is too lax. A basic example - lawns looking like they are ready for Halloween, buildings looking decrepit and dorms that look like they have never seen a GI party. Its kind of sad, really. I guess the trade off is that they are probably going to be knee deep in some serious s**t so I'll cut 'em a break.

 

BTW, its not limited to the Army either. I've seen this on Marine and Air Force bases too.

[+Dave 2,322]

Its the kinder genteler military. Where talking out your problems makes better military men and women.....

[+daddyairplanes 10,281]

seein as i got two weeks left on active duty i'll say it. yup i slapped my soldiers. not Full Metal Jacket style more Gibbs NCIS to the back of the head style. even taught some of my ones on the way up, to the back of the head is a wake up call to the face is embarassing. funny thing is tho told i was wrong all the time my soldiers tended to get things done, better. always bitched loudly when i got moved to other shifts or companies too.(never a punitve transfer, chain of command just got sick of seein my face after 2-3 years at a clip.) leads me to believe it worked tho i don't recommend it for everyone.

[ONETINSOLDIER 2]

Damn, am I too old at 50 to sign up? Id whoop some butt on these whipper snappers!

Edited October 13, 2010 by ONETINSOLDIER

[serverandenforcer 33]

Man, I keep hearing stories of new troops coming back talking about all the priveledges that they got in basic. I don't remember any priveledges at all when I was in basic, and that was only 5 1/2 years ago! Not once did we ever go to Burger King, not once did we have 15 minutes to watch TV, not once were we ever allowed to carry a cell phone with us. I'm hearing these stories from the new troops. I mean WTF?!?!?! Seriously, why change things, why make things easier when in the methods in the past have proved to be succesfull. Aren't all the victories in the wars past a testament to that? Who's F-ed up brilliant idea was it to wimpify the military? How the heck are our troops supposed to have that combat, ready to give it all, no fear mentality? Hell, I don't think even basic was tough enough when I went through. I didn't crap my pants at least once. Don't get me wrong, it was the most hell I've ever went through and I would never want to do it again. But I feel like I've been done a dis-service to be able to be mentally ready if I get deployed in a hot combat zone (which apparently I've been told that the AF will never allow their troops to be in... whatever ).

[JediMaster 451]

I guess it's the fault of the parents who had children in the late 80s/early 90s. They allowed their kids to be spoiled brats and now if the military wants to keep recruitment up they need to make allowances for the new generation of wussy narcissists.

 

They can lower their standards, or they can have a force that shrinks by attrition and doesn't regenerate. I guess they chose the former.

[+daddyairplanes 10,281]

as we say bout the new joes, the Army needs the bodies. there are two wars going on.

[+CrazyhorseB34 937]

Yeah, I guess some "old frag chuckers" can wax romantically about the good ole days, but the truth is those days are gone. BCT is and always has been a farce. I have friends that are Drills and some are frustrated. But the truth of the matter is knowing how to march will not help you at all in combat. Instead in OSUT ( All trigger pullers know what I am talking about ), alot of the time wasted on marching and basic old school "Chicken Chit" has been replaced with repetitive fire team level battle drills. For instance would you rather have a new Joe that knows how to do a counter column in his sleep or one that knows exactly what his actions are during Battle Drill #3. The vast majority of a Combat Arms Soldier's training is honed when he arrives in his unit. We do not sent individual replacements to war any more. Units at BDE level deploy and redeploy together. Units get filled with crutes before they deploy and with ample time to train them based on the unit's mission. They are doing it right. Leave em alone. Let the Army train their soldiers how they see fit. I have no idea what Posts some of you have visited but Army Posts now are marvels of modern architecture ( one exception, Ft. Campbell is an ugly cesspool ). BTW civilians do the majority of the grounds keeping due to soldiers actually spending the majority of their time training. Well I am proud to have "wussy narcissists" fighting for me. At least they want to be there. Next time you are in the airport and you see one of these young "wussy narcissts" traveling on RnR from A-ghan, thank him for his service. Better yet go to Walter Reed their are alot of "wussy narcissists" there.

[vanir 0]

lol yeah I think a tongue in cheek bit of good humour posted by tinsoldier got taken a bit too seriously, I'm sure when we think about it most of us would agree with crazyhorse's well considered post. Historically speaking one of biggest hurdles among national militaries has been stubborn conservatism among doctrinal training. As a foreign national my impression of the US military, particularly with the forward deployment of troops is extremely progressive. One of the primary doctrinal approaches at the very top for example is an advertised "high survivability emphasis" and total force coordination, cooperation and mutual support functions, from special forces to mechanics. The common familiarity with domestic technologies readily adapted to the battlefield is a tremendous bonus, you've probably got just as many computer gaming nerds with rifles in their hands as you do rednecks these days and that's not a bad thing considering that kind of savvy was once reserved for special units. Certainly the nintendo generation can be pretentious but they're also competitive and quick thinking, and most of the old school stuff gets picked up with experience and guidence by anyone maintaining front line roles as they mature to the situation. I think at the end of the day any military can be proud and confident about having progressive leadership, god knows nobody needs aristocratic generals who approach problem solving by throwing numbers at it, and spend most of their approach to doctrinal training weeding out any independent questioning.

 

A tremendous historical impact on American forces according to the books was the rearguard action of what were really just Luftwaffe security troops and light infantry up the Italian pensinsula in WW2. They were considered elite for their initiative and tenacity, but within the Wehrmacht they were definitely second echelon formations considered reserves, although the paratroops were given special equipment which made them deadly in a small force firefight until the battle scaled up. Still, for what they were it is amazing they weren't routed from day one, let alone put up a stubborn fight that actually had the Army thinking it might turn things around with a timely counterattack. That's progressive doctrinal approach for you, as compared to conservative old schooling.

[+Dave 2,322]

One thing I find funny is that I said the same thing when I was a TI about the youngers troops, and years prior to that when I was a new troop, my TI said the same about us. When my father was a TI he said (back in the 70's) that the troops were too soft, then he in turn he said when he was in basic in the 60's, his TI's thought they were too soft. The attitude is the same, just the time has changed. Basic training is what it is, they aren't going to make combat ready soldiers, its the first line units like Jamie said that is getting it done where they need it. People need to remember that basic trainings entire purpose is to teach the new recruits the ability to pay attention to detail, (GI parties and the like) work as a team (through drill and ceremonies) and follow instructions. That lays the foundation for the line units to build upon. In reality has basic gotten softer? No, it hasnt, the intensity has changed, yes, but the outcome is the same. If anyone actually doubts that, look at what our men and women are doing everyday overseas. That is proof enough.

[ezlead 42]

Remember: 1 percent of our population(1 percent) is defending our country. IMHO they are doing a TREMENDOUS job.

One big thing to consider: They are All-Volunteer.

In other words:they asked for this sh$%.

It should make training easier and better. :yes:

In the ole draftee days,it was maybe necessary to smack some guys around just to get their's and everyone else's attention.

All you Jarheads out there remember what it was like in:"The Old Corps."

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

:good:

 

Dave, formation marching is an amazing achievment that tolerates no errors. I suppose its a method of learning to instantly obey orders, and it is both individual and group training together, at the same time. 1-tin was complaining about Basic, not later training -- That's how I see it. I was thinking something like ezlead poasted: Shining boots and bouncing quarters off bed sheets may be more needed with a draft force. It rubs home to the Newbies they are now, uh, military. Is this Correct Thinking?

 

crazy::

But the truth of the matter is knowing how to march will not help you at all in combat.

 

Its the start of military training? Anyways, its good for shows which seems to be very important to the civilian leadership (ack, I keep thinking of Stalin waving his little hand as the troops march by). Also, long distance forced humping under load trains for endurance, for when it has to be done in the real thing. I've read the old Romans could cover maybe 50 miles a day carrying their iron.

[ONETINSOLDIER 2]

well, he ships out to Kuwait monday,,for a week (!?!)

he said he will be going to tikrit for a couple of days too, what for, I dont know. Its only Kuwait, but still,,,you never know.. From the last couple of conversations with him on the phone, the kid seems to be growing up fast, and has a decent outlook on things. Lets hope its an uneventfull trip.

[MigBuster 2,884]

Glad he's okay still - good luck to him

Did you tell him to polish his boots!!

[+EricJ 4,256]

Yeah, I guess some "old frag chuckers" can wax romantically about the good ole days, but the truth is those days are gone. BCT is and always has been a farce. I have friends that are Drills and some are frustrated. But the truth of the matter is knowing how to march will not help you at all in combat. Instead in OSUT ( All trigger pullers know what I am talking about ), alot of the time wasted on marching and basic old school "Chicken Chit" has been replaced with repetitive fire team level battle drills. For instance would you rather have a new Joe that knows how to do a counter column in his sleep or one that knows exactly what his actions are during Battle Drill #3. The vast majority of a Combat Arms Soldier's training is honed when he arrives in his unit. We do not sent individual replacements to war any more. Units at BDE level deploy and redeploy together. Units get filled with crutes before they deploy and with ample time to train them based on the unit's mission. They are doing it right. Leave em alone. Let the Army train their soldiers how they see fit. I have no idea what Posts some of you have visited but Army Posts now are marvels of modern architecture ( one exception, Ft. Campbell is an ugly cesspool ). BTW civilians do the majority of the grounds keeping due to soldiers actually spending the majority of their time training. Well I am proud to have "wussy narcissists" fighting for me. At least they want to be there. Next time you are in the airport and you see one of these young "wussy narcissts" traveling on RnR from A-ghan, thank him for his service. Better yet go to Walter Reed their are alot of "wussy narcissists" there.

 

In 2004 my Troop got individual replacements so it's still going on and I think my Company got a couple too but all of my FOs were prior to going to Afghanistan. But the timetable is relative to the unit though and not specifically always true as two of my FOs showed up a month before deploying and they came along for the ride. Though to help them (and the others since me and my FSO were the most experienced) we trained weekly (if they weren't on patrol) so it can be done. And I'll agree on that last part as having been both to Iraq and Afghanistan you see Soldiers do the most amazing and phenomenal stuff these days (SSG Guinta one of them) and all are part of the "wussy" generation. CrazyhorseB34 has hit it right on the head.

 

And since I've been in since 1998 I don't miss shining my boots or pressing my uniform. Not because I'm lazy or a sh!tbag but I got better things to do than constantly shine stuff that gets messed up. Because one day in the motor pool jacked them up anyways which made me wonder what the whole point of shining your boots and messing them up was anyways. Screw Kiwi and hello soap and water and a washing machine. Time moves on and so we all have to.

 

And as far as Walter Reed, SGM/CSM Jurgensen was my HHT 1SG during Iraq. Dude took an AK round in the tooth and kept on trucking. Couldn't talk but he was still taking care of business and I forgot what leg got blown up to the knee but if you see him walking you may notice but I never did when he came back. Though he was older that's something to look on too...

Edited January 27, 2011 by EricJ