Patch December 2010-C is out!

[+Old Diego 66]

It's his vision of fun or bust. Unfortunately he isn't his consumer base.

Julhelm. You have managed to put into a soundbite what I've been trying to say in paragraphs. Well put, man

[+Dave 2,322]

you didn't see? the was a pony included in Exp2. but like all else there were some bugs.......

 

 

Yikes, SOME bugs? Understatement....

[Spinners 15,986]

No, Exp2 is screwed up no matter what version.

 

IMHO, it is least screwed up with version C, if you can tolerate starting in the air above your airfield.

 

I haven't tried 'C' as I really enjoy runway starts but 'B' is working fine for me - although I don't generally fly third-party props or helos.

[+Dave 2,322]

I haven't tried 'C' as I really enjoy runway starts but 'B' is working fine for me - although I don't generally fly third-party props or helos.

 

 

Well when we finish the Korea mod you will, its loaded with props. And it would be a shame to have the work wasted....

[+Zurawski 33]

The thing is, if TK had made the effort to have those kinds of contemporary environment visuals, he would've run into the same bugs and fixed them. But he doesn't care about that. It's his vision of fun or bust. Unfortunately he isn't his consumer base.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong (Don't worry my wife does without batting an eye) but don't virtually all small software devs go into a project molding their conceptual idea into a finished product that essentially is what he envisioned?

 

While I appreciate your point that TK's tunnel-vision in regards to the direction he chooses to focus his simulations is substantially limited. I have to argue that we clearly never were his target audience. There are a couple handful of highly talented artist among us who with great creative efforts effectively painted lips on a pig. Or in other words we and others have pushed the envelope of this simulation far beyond TK's conceptualization, but under all the 3D and textural trickery, TK's game is essentially the same game it was in 2002. Clearly TK and his Sims have a quasi-cult following large because of the efforts of the talented individuals who frequent this forum... All his offerings to date would essentially be quickly forgotten were it not for us and that's a factual statement without question.

 

I as much as anyone wish he would deviate is minds-eye a little and make some concessions for his actual core constituents and up the IQ of his offerings.

[Spinners 15,986]

Well when we finish the Korea mod you will, its loaded with props. And it would be a shame to have the work wasted....

 

I'm sure things will be sorted long before then.

[SFP1Ace 33]

Wanna know why TK has quite small customer base?

 

And you already know that we don't do interviews' date=' we don't feed the news, and we don't send out review copies.

 

TK

--[/quote']

Thats from a thread at TW forum. Is this a "smart" part of his business model?

[Gr.Viper 131]

Well, if he gets more people interested, there will be many more complaints about bugs in the forums.

[+Julhelm 266]

Correct me if I'm wrong (Don't worry my wife does without batting an eye) but don't virtually all small software devs go into a project molding their conceptual idea into a finished product that essentially is what he envisioned?

 

While I appreciate your point that TK's tunnel-vision in regards to the direction he chooses to focus his simulations is substantially limited. I have to argue that we clearly never were his target audience. There are a couple handful of highly talented artist among us who with great creative efforts effectively painted lips on a pig. Or in other words we and others have pushed the envelope of this simulation far beyond TK's conceptualization, but under all the 3D and textural trickery, TK's game is essentially the same game it was in 2002. Clearly TK and his Sims have a quasi-cult following large because of the efforts of the talented individuals who frequent this forum... All his offerings to date would essentially be quickly forgotten were it not for us and that's a factual statement without question.

 

I as much as anyone wish he would deviate is minds-eye a little and make some concessions for his actual core constituents and up the IQ of his offerings.

You're missing the point. The point is that his target audience is the same audience who buy Jet Thunder or Storm of War, and that audience isn't content with environment visuals that have little evolved past EAW which came out in 1998.

[+Stary 2,427]

EAW had little animated sprite-based people running from destroyed APCs or churhes. And pilots under chutes. And (later) custmizable true 3D trees and houses using 3dz format...

[FastCargo 412]

Folks, its real simple.

 

If you don't like it, don't buy it. The best way to get change is to vote with your money. If the last Expansion Pack makes you say "Never Again" then don't buy anything more and walk away.

 

Talk is cheap (especially on the internet). You want something different, put your money where your keyboard is and invest in something else. There are plenty of other options.

 

FC

[+Stary 2,427]

unless there's nowhere else to go FC...

 

I'm quite happy with what we have, but and I think most of oldtimers want the same, just fixes for really old bugs.

 

One example -radio call to turn radar off, it's been there on the list doing nothing since I run WoV for the very first time in early 2005. Never explained, never fixed, never doing anything other than giving "Unable" from wingman.

 

And I'll definitely buy Tomcat sim when it's out, whatever the core changes may or rather may not be. I hope we'll have it this year, you see Harold, it's that strange love-hate relationship I experienced with only one other sim in the past. Janes' ATF, some fourteen years ago

[+Old Diego 66]

Folks, its real simple.

 

If you don't like it, don't buy it. The best way to get change is to vote with your money. If the last Expansion Pack makes you say "Never Again" then don't buy anything more and walk away.

 

Talk is cheap (especially on the internet). You want something different, put your money where your keyboard is and invest in something else. There are plenty of other options.

 

FC

 

Sound advice, FC. I haven't directly supported TK since SF2I...I recall something about some cobbled patch that made him hand out Combo Packs. What I have done since then was support friends and fellow modders with their projects. Hopefully, Jet Thunder is capable of being the next sand box.

[MigBuster 2,884]

One example -radio call to turn radar off, it's been there on the list doing nothing since I run WoV for the very first time in early 2005. Never explained, never fixed, never doing anything other than giving "Unable" from wingman.

 

 

 

Yes probably quicker to remove it from the radio commands box altogether.

 

And I'll definitely buy Tomcat sim when it's out, whatever the core changes may or rather may not be. I hope we'll have it this year, you see Harold, it's that strange love-hate relationship I experienced with only one other sim in the past. Janes' ATF, some fourteen years ago

 

TK says the F-14 game has been in development for 2 years - so I really hope there are a few surprise changes in it.

[MigBuster 2,884]

Sound advice, FC. I haven't directly supported TK since SF2I...I recall something about some cobbled patch that made him hand out Combo Packs. What I have done since then was support friends and fellow modders with their projects. Hopefully, Jet Thunder is capable of being the next sand box.

 

I wish JT the best - its an ambitious project and will no doubt have teething problems of its own to overcome, let alone features missing that others would like in it. Be interesting to see how it is released and if the long term support is there.

[+Zurawski 33]

You're missing the point. The point is that his target audience is the same audience who buy Jet Thunder or Storm of War, and that audience isn't content with environment visuals that have little evolved past EAW which came out in 1998.

 

I don't agree... Both Jet thunder and Storm of War have been and continue to be advertised as high-realism / historically accurate simulations. neither of which anyone can claim about the Strike Fighter series with a straight face. While the more recent offerings have basis in factual context, they by-in-large are fictitious scenarios. I argue likely 60% of the customers who've purchased any of the Strike Fighter series did so for one of for three reasons: 1.)First introduction to flight simulations. 2.)Were wooed by the semi-exotic and eclectic stable of aircraft. 3.)Choose it as a platform for no other reason than it's open architecture to dabble with... I honestly believe very few were under any misconception that these were anything other than lite-Sims and their graphical glamor never exceeded the tip of an aircrafts nose and ended roughly around it's exhaust.

 

Jet Thunder and to an even greater degree Storm of War are vastly superior to the Thirdwire series in virtually all categories, most notably the environmental visuals... Any attempt to place the Thirdwire series on the same paying field seems silly. That's the equivalent of saying the AmA players are essentially the same as Quake players.

 

While I would love for TK's next offering to make a concerted effort to close the gap (I'm not holding my breath mind you...) The reality is so long as TK's perceived consumer is the Sim-lite crowd, the environmental visuals will continue to play second fiddle to the aircraft. This crowd is the AD Sim enthusiasts... they want to look at the pretty planes not oogle the detail in the trees.

Edited January 2, 2011 by Zurawski

[FastCargo 412]

I also think that although some of the beefs about the sim have been around as long as the sim has, this overall thread would not have occured had the 2 major events happened (the 'prop' and 'takeoff' events). The 'prop' event I don't consider a bug as it did not affect stock models. The second event affected everything...and obviously caused the consternation here.

 

I sometimes wonder if TK puts undue pressure on himself to get something out, which is maybe why he doesn't hire beta testers anymore because it would delay the product "unnecessarily". I'm hoping that Exp2 has proved 2 things: 1) Getting something out before Christmas won't really help if it has major bugs and 2) hire some beta testers! I think addons on their own can generate interest (ie sales) without having to be rushed...folks were very excited about having stock Lightnings and a mission editor.

 

I finally think that there are folks who are willing to be beta testers for free...but TK needs a boilerplate NDA with them. Heavily limit their number, and strict instructions that finding bugs (not desired features) in the stock product is the priority...with classifications of the bugs from 'show stopper' to 'fix later' intersecting with 'hard' to 'easy' to fix. I also think moderate 'mod' beta testing should be encouraged, but not to the point of delaying a release, but maybe at least determining there is a problem. I think folks would have been a lot more accepting of the 'prop' issue had they known about it...a statement at release saying something like 'New shaders may cause incompabilities with older transparencies' would be sufficient. I think that TK should have just let the 'prop' bug go unfixed for a little longer after he determined the issue verses rushing out a patch that broke something significant.

 

Beta testing can be an exercise in frustration, simply because the constant urge to fix EVERYTHING that is brought up can indefinitely delay a release (ie income). The trick is to note what's important, and what can be put off until later. You will ALWAYS have folks who bitch about this bug or that bug...the trick is to fix the stuff that most everyone will bitch about vs the stuff very few will care about.

 

FC

[+Stary 2,427]

The reality is so long as TK's perceived consumer is the Sim-lite crowd, the environmental visuals will continue to play second fiddle to the aircraft.

 

Really Zur, I completely can't agree with you sir.

The "lite sim" crowd is the crowd that wants pretty graphics as a complete package, not limited to the airframes. Pretty accurate planes are great as long as they aren't rendered in front of blurry featureless background. The main reason I perceive Wings Of Prey as the best WW2 gaming experience currently available is the complexity and believability of the whole image. And it's mainly achieved by "just" nice repeatable textures, oversized trees, and real life cities with few filters thrown ontop of it. As Jules says, and he knows that better than most of guys here, coding few postprocessing shaders doesn't take weeks, but days. Templates of these are available for free on the net. For commercial use.

 

Or, the other way around:

If you care only about accurate planes and don't care about the rest, that means you're not much into "lite sim". Then let the planes be as accurate as possible systems wise. Since when we can shut the engine? WOI?

[+Old Diego 66]

To make Julhelm's statement more correct - I think it should have read "...The point is that his customer base is the same audience who buy Jet Thunder or Storm of War...". TK's target audience is like Zur says - simlight. Too bad that those customers are such a small minority that they couldn't support Thirdwire for as long as his real customer base have.

 

Anyone who has ever beta tested software will know that they always come with an NDA and that their only job is to find bugs, reproduce them, list the steps needed to reproduce them and not classify them in any manner. That is left to the developer who knows what the delivery schedule is and what the project budget is. In the case of the Thirdwire testers, they had a great system going. They tested the stock game for free and in between test versions, they tested their own mods on it. The system worked great that way for years and the new system is obviously not working. Think back to when things began to negatively change in the quality control department. Now, you still think the community is worried about one bug that affects mods and one that affects stock? No way. It has been a steady release of version123-a, 123-b and 123-c....and now 123-d. People get tired of paying to beta test and even more upset when something forces them to do a full reinstall because of piss poor QC. Its too bad that what should have been a great release was marred by problems that were caused by him and not some percieved notion that the community was rushing him. Come on, who didn't want a native mission editor? That was enough for me to buy it buy I learned to wait a few weeks to see what the quality was before I turned over my cash. Glad I did because I don't pay to beta test.

[MigBuster 2,884]

I argue likely 60% of the customers who've purchased any of the Strike Fighter series did so for one of for three reasons: 1.)First introduction to flight simulations. 2.)Were wooed by the semi-exotic and eclectic stable of aircraft. 3.)Choose it as a platform for no other reason than it's open architecture to dabble with...

 

Well no figures to prove it myself - you could say the majority of TWs customers only ever play the original game - (over 50% judging by the way TK does things)

 

From people posting its the era the games are set in (ie this game has F-105s!), the historical nature (Vietnam/Israel ) and the fact the games don't need to be studied for years to start playing them.

[+Zurawski 33]

Good point by all.

 

I have no recollection of any other dev supporting their product so far past their gold date. Granted virtually all the products are really incremental advancements over the other but who else retros those advancements into their previous offerings? Some would argue why buy anything new when eventually the old stuff is brought up to new stuff standards... One I'm hard pressed to answer with anything other than "continued support"?

 

You have no argument from me that we have incrementally been experiencing more and more buggy patches. That said, I wonder how many of these bugs are the result of out-racing his desire to keep his old horses in paces with his new ones?

 

TK has a good business model and a admirable ethic to his consumers. Having said that... Maybe it's time to clean the work bench and work forward instead of spending so much time working backwards and metaphorically dirtying the pool?

[+ojcar 157]

I must be a weird kind of man, but I can't see all the drama. There is a new patch. It has some bugs. That's all. Then, waiting for next patch that fixes the more important bugs (it seems that the clouds-trees aren't gonna be fixed but I can live with that).

I have some games collecting dust because the amount of bugs and the lack of developpers support (remember the Huey sim a year or two ago?). I have others collecting dust because no compatibility between modded and unmodded installs and the eternality of installing-patching a thousand times (Oleg, I'm looking at you). Others collecting dust because stupid DRM (remember Starforce? remember the new Silent Hunter?). And so....

TK games have the perfect balance to me. Good feeling at flying (in fact much better that some "serious sims"),enought good eyecandy (I like much more good gameplaying over good graphics), a very good era to fly (in fact any era), very easy moddability, THE BEST modding community ever, and a developper WHO CARES. TK games have been continously patched during a very long time. They have no DRM. TK have answered our questions in Thirdwire forums for years! He has fixed a lot of bugs and he has made the games better trhough the years. Some bugs are not fixed and some others are new, but how many patches and fixes since the old SF1 until now????

 

Let's calm down and give the man some time to fix the things....

Onli my two cents, gentlemen.

[JediMaster 451]

I think this all boils down to one thing: patch C broke something that not only was working in patch B, it's ALWAYS worked since the first in 2002. It's also a fairly obvious error that should've been spotted. The prop thing was irritating, but it didn't fundamentally alter the way you had to play the game. Ditto the wingmen disappearing heading home. Being forced to start in the air DOES alter things and I think people are a bit frayed around the edges now.

Is it a major game-breaking problem? No. However, it does indeed appear to be a leading indicator of bigger problems to come and I guess people are hoping by raising the alarm now they can halt that decline and get TK back on the track he was on before.

[+Stary 2,427]

JM, totally agree with you

[+EricJ 4,244]

Agreed JM, well said...