SF2 Series DACT Reports And Related A2A Discussions (Game only)

[Slartibartfast 153]

The campaign pitted my flight of F-4Ds against MiG-19s yesterday.

 

Observation: If you really want to get rid of Farmers, Sparrow 'em! There is no other way.

 

My flight of four encoutered two Farmers on a CAP mission. While Farmer #1 largely ignored my flight (possibly for a C-130 flying in the area that provided a better target), Farmer #2 went for it and came straight at us. I got the lead with an AIM-7 which was easy enough, but MiG #2 was a real PITA.

 

In a 2 vs 1 fight (my and three's wingie just didn't seem to be in a fighting mood), we did nearly everything to get the buggar. Two more Sparrows refused to track, so I've tried to get up close for some SUU-16 and AIM-9 love to no avail. His turns were too sharp and the reversals too quick to stay within the firing envelope of both weapons. My number three also spent all of his IR ordonnance on this guy, but somehow managed to get a lucky hit on his wingtip with the cannon. I hthen started to extend out a bit, which brought it into Sparrow range. My last AIM-7 fortunately homed in, otherwise I'd have broken off the fight an buggered out.

 

So just to reinforce the opinion about the MiG-19:

Fight it like you would fight a wild animal...do not let it get close and use your rifle to keep it from biting.

If this doesn't work: Run! Run, run, run!

Must admit I have just started a campaign in WOV flying the dreaded Mig-19 well J-6 but who's counting...its amusing against the F-4 they blast in shoot a sparrow and fly out and sent on their way with some 30mm rounds... looking at it from the defenders point of view the J-6 is so out gunned its crazy and I spent most of my 2 flights so far on the defensive though I did nail 4 A-7's and a pair of F-4's that did something stupid... they decided to dogfight... also I did notice that the Navy F-4J is a tougher customer that the F-4D...

[Heretic 2]

Must admit I have just started a campaign in WOV flying the dreaded Mig-19 well J-6 but who's counting...its amusing against the F-4 they blast in shoot a sparrow and fly out and sent on their way with some 30mm rounds... looking at it from the defenders point of view the J-6 is so out gunned its crazy and I spent most of my 2 flights so far on the defensive though I did nail 4 A-7's and a pair of F-4's that did something stupid... they decided to dogfight... also I did notice that the Navy F-4J is a tougher customer that the F-4D...

 

Well, I guess that's the difference between the player and the superhuman AI.

 

 

I probably wouldn't be as much of a nuisance to AI F-4s in a MiG-19 as AI Farmers are to me in a Phantom.

 

 

- Edit:

The F-4J already had A2A avionics refinements and a slotted tailplane for improved maneuverability, while the F-4D was just a slight refinement of the F-4C.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Heretic

[Caesar 305]

Ain't nobody kickin' somebody's arse 'round here? Boooo! Still about 4 weeks 'till I get back...NSTR???

[+EricJ 3,994]

Nah man I've got things to take care of but maybe at the end of the month I'll get flying again. Busy busy busy.

[+SidDogg 130]

 

Ain't nobody kickin' somebody's arse 'round here? Boooo! Still about 4 weeks 'till I get back...NSTR???

 

 

Well... gave a MiG-19S in-game a run for his money this morning at close quarters...in an F-4B to boot

 

...Until I looked back forward in the cockpit to find the drink straining upwards to do things to me :hie:

 

I have found that the key is defensive scissors. And staying above 350KIAS. PREFERABLY 400

 

He might get on your tail quick...he might not. but when you get in to him, he's gonna turn hard. That's his forte.

 

When it goes down, It's obvious we're not gonna do energy circles and just play with this guy. We wanna bleed his energy.

 

So, we let him do his thing. But WE are GOING to do OURS.

 

What I DO is stay with the burner and keep a centerline tank [kinda need that...]

 

You see him on you, level off and get your speed up. maybe above 500 or so?

 

PLEASE don't run. I'm not trying to sound asinine or douchy or overly prideful but...NOBODY F's America

 

Your speed is above 450-500, he's on you, even at about 200 yards. BANK HARD AND PULL INTO THAT SUCKER

 

Your Phantom CAN DO IT. Watch your airspeed bleed below 450, and release back pressure accordingly. Perhaps down to 4.5G?

 

You'll find that when you're down to about 360KIAS, your craft can still barely sustain itself in a turn. That's the cutoff.

 

You HAVE to unload from there. But by the time you do that...you find your little adversary has TERRBILE Angle-Off-Tail.

 

Believe it. check six, check the paused views, check the map...it's ALL there. That's why you turn. instead of run.

 

Get your speed up. Turn back the other way. Unload again when your speed is down. Get it up and reverse again.

 

Before you know it...after a while, you're head-to-head with this guy at ridiculously close range. Floor it. EXTEND!

 

Not too far. He'll just be on your tail again. Just enough to get your speed up and BANK HARD AND PULL INTO THAT SUCKER

 

If another scissors doe not ensue thereafter, It's a head-to-head. Use that to make him turn hard for your rear.

 

Because by that time...All the extra unloading time from extending just bought you enough speed to maneuver more...

 

While he wastes energy turning hard just to get back behind you. You could even dabble a bit with moving vertically.

 

If you do take the vertical option from this point...he'll try to get with you, but he has to unload at times, as well...

 

From this point...you're either faster or up higher, and he's lower and slower. Anything goes...

 

Just remember, he's got those burners, too. Make a move before your newfound advantage goes down the drain...

 

...just sayin.

 

 

 

 

 

SidDogg

[AvalancheDiode 0]

 

Two MiG-19S in one mission with F-4C by guns. Since I fly for Royal Dhimari Air Force, I can afford to run away and call for help.....

 

Yeah, just like SidDogg said. Hard turning with MiG-19S is suicidal. Strategic turning can avoid being chased in the tail. The agility of MiG-19S comes at a price: short duration. Thus I tend not to dog fight with it but to lure it to burn until bingo, then jump it from behind. NR-30 doesn't carry a lot of ammo as SUU/23 or M61A1 does, thus Hi-G turn at outer fringe of gun range and lure it wastes its ammo. The AI in this game tends to shoot for home after running out of ammo, and creating another type of opening for you to jump from behind.

[Caesar 305]

Good stuff, gents. Will have to take an F-4 out to test your tactic, Sid; usually if it's MiG-19's and I'm in a Rhino, it turns into shoot at range, if they close, run, get about 5-7miles off, turn back, shoot at range again, and hope for the kill! Either that or jump one of 'em with heaters when they don't know I'm there! Usually, I botch the energy management if I end up in a scissors against the -19.

[+SidDogg 130]

Good stuff, gents. Will have to take an F-4 out to test your tactic, Sid; usually if it's MiG-19's and I'm in a Rhino, it turns into shoot at range, if they close, run, get about 5-7miles off, turn back, shoot at range again, and hope for the kill! Either that or jump one of 'em with heaters when they don't know I'm there! Usually, I botch the energy management if I end up in a scissors against the -19.

 

I forget to mention, You WILL end up at low altitude...

 

The improtant thing is to UNLOAD and get your speed up, 400 to 500KIAS. then BANK HARD AND PULL INTO THAT SUCKER

 

right when you get below 400KIAS, speed will go down a bit more anyway. you just have to release the load from the wing right then...

 

Before long, your speed ought to fluctuate around 400KIAS while banking and reversing the whole time.

 

Now the way you get him OUT FRONT... is to watch his bank. From what I have seen, he usually follows 2 to 3 seconds after you do yours...

 

Use your rudder in conjunction to SNAP that bird the other way, RIGHT BEFORE the cross...then check speed and pull accordingly...

 

In the beginning, you were trying to keep up with him. By now, he will have begun to gradually fixate upon your reversals...

 

...And try to keep up with you. In the saddle.

 

However, being supersmart Mr. SuperAI that he is, he never seems to push the envelope there...wise guy.

 

Once he is THERE...RIGHT at the cross...and you're in his rear, usually at a lower altitude...

 

He gets the gist, and tends to go for broke instead of reversing. Full back pressure, finish the turn hard.

 

DON'T FOLLOW THAT. He's doing his thing. WE are doing OURS.

 

While he's clawing his way out of assed-out-land, you should be able to at least get a BUNCH of speed on him...

 

Enough to lose the burner during the next turn...and perhaps save some fuel

 

I understand someone spoke of how fuel consumption is rather OVERLY modeled in favor of AI in-game...

 

It seems to be the case in dogfights, as the MiG-19S only holds 1800kg clean...

 

...and the Phantom holds almost 3 TIMES that.

 

Yeah, we know that the J79 was notorious for pigging out...

 

But it's not like the RD-9 was any more efficient anyway. I mean, C'MON. And there's a TWIN set?

 

I understand that it is smaller, but was it REALLY more fuel effficient?

 

...just sayin.

 

 

 

 

 

SidDogg

[Heretic 2]

The agility of MiG-19S comes at a price: short duration.

 

The AI can go bingo?

[+SidDogg 130]

The AI can go bingo?

 

...This is true.

 

However, in accordance with the AI Config, some pilots tend to stick around till their clips are empty... #thatisall

 

 

 

 

 

SidDogg

[Heretic 2]

...This is true.

 

However, in accordance with the AI Config, some pilots tend to stick around till their clips are empty... #thatisall

 

Been wondering about that, too. Especially my wingmen not bugging out after calling Bingo.

 

Mysteries of the AI...

[+daddyairplanes 9,242]

do i need to play the wingmen song again?

[Slartibartfast 153]

do i need to play the wingmen song again?

Not for me damn fool took me out again last night... with of all missile's An AIM-4 FALCON!!! you know the worst missile we have to deal with...

Edited April 13, 2011 by Slartibartfast

[+daddyairplanes 9,242]

 

 

dude this is dedicated to your falcon toting wingman

[Slartibartfast 153]

 

 

dude this is dedicated to your falcon toting wingman

Lol I own this already... as to that wonderful wingman... next time I am gonna make sure he goes north with no weapons... as the wonderful guys have so far shot me down with everything Radarguided (Don't ask even I am not sure) Heaters and Guns...

 

On a more serious note I am going to do a couple of sorties in the B-26K against Mig's to see what advantages you have apart from none and not a lot of hope...

[Heretic 2]

dude this is dedicated to your falcon toting wingman

 

What an awesome song!

 

 

 

On a more serious note I am going to do a couple of sorties in the B-26K against Mig's to see what advantages you have apart from none and not a lot of hope...

 

You could choose a F-100 as well. Same setup, lol.

[+Heberth 159]

my first participation here.

this is a combat of 2 sci/fi planes

year:2019

me: Fenrir with 2 X AIM-9X and 6 X AIM-120 (standart)

Opposition: F/A 37 Talon with 2 X AIM-9L, 2 X AIM-7 and 4 X AIM-120.

i started close to enemy's 6 o'clock,i turn hard to have a lock to shot the AIM-120, but the enemy ECM was too strong. so i try to get close to one 9x kill and the enemy started to runaway at supersonic speed, with full afterburner.I started the pursuit at mach 1.5 ,so i get a clear tone, shot the 9X and hit the target...

 

 

 

[Caesar 305]

DAAAAAAAAAAMN You guys are flying fast! Neat to see an AC plane in SF!

[+Heberth 159]

this is what i call supercruise

[Caesar 305]

It's been 7 weeks, and I've returned home. Got back in the saddle to re-familiarize myself with the Turkey for a bit, did a few similar and dissimilar ACT runs and then decided to get back into the 2v1's. So, here goes today's DACT report:

 

F-14B Tomcat vs. 2x Mirage 2000C S1's.

 

Loadouts:

F-14B: 2x AIM-7M, 4x AIM-9M, gun, no tanks, 75% fuel

M2000C: 4x R550, gun, no tank, 100% fuel

 

DACT started at about 20,000 feet, pass at the merge, and the typical one-circle fight formed. I was expecting the Mirage 2000C to handle very similarly to the F-16 Fighting Falcon, and so was anticipating a long, drawn-out fight. Well, I put the F-14 into about a 7.5g turn at 500KIAS as the Mirages turned into me, and I was actually gaining on them. As I continued the pull, I let off on the throttles to build up some of the g, so that I would be able to get my nose on quick for a missile shot on the trailer, then deal with the lead.

 

 

What happened next was quite anti-climactic. Rather than act as bait, once I got behind the trail Mirage, the lead had slowed down to follow his wingman, then lazily pulled left, pointing away from me, headed to my 9o'clock. FOX 2 on the first Mirage - good kill. Lead finally begins pulling into me, but he's not winning the turning contest, and I wind up on his six. He begins violent maneuvers with his aircraft to shake me, and this is where the Turkey's slow roll rate could give him the advantage. He's yanking into short turns, but I've got enough energy to match his turn rate. I decide I ought to shoot him with a missile, rather than gun him, so I take a shot at about 1.2mi. Sidewinder misses, and I end up inside of 1mi - guns it is!

 

 

 

Again, violent maneuvering to shake me, but it isn't working. Twice I came close to overshooting, but with a high yo-yo, I wound up back on the Mirage's tail. He's still bucking the plane around, and getting a gun shot isn't easy. I took two snap shots as he reversed on two occasions - a hit on his port flap knocked it off, but no significant damage. After one of his harsh-yet-short pulls, I got into good position and was pulling into him. I wasn't gonna be pretty, but he was right in front of my M61's line of fire. Guns! Both wings and the vertical stab get sawed off, and the pilot punches out. Kill 2, RTB.

 

 

 

Takeaways: The Mirage 2000C S1 does not handle like the F-16 from what I've seen, but in this fight, the AI was not very aggressive. Might try this one again in the future to see if I don't come across some more aggressive pilots, since I know the Mirage 2000C is a maneuverable fighter that should have been more difficult to take on.

[+EricJ 3,994]

Me: F/A-18F EPE with 2 x AIM-9X and 6 x AIM-120

Opponent: PAK-FA with at least 2 x R-73 and I think it was 6 x R-77, it's been awhile...

 

Yes it's been a bit since I've done one but after a warm up session with another F/A-18F EPE it was sorta time to get back into things. Started off with the PAK-FA in front of me and it started the nominal weave to get me to overshoot. It managed to and I caught the radar on the RWR but as far as I could tell no launch. After dancing with it a bit I would have to say offhand that it was... timid. At this point I had come out of the vertical with it heading generally west. At this point I could have taken a shot with either the 9X or taken an AIM-120 shot and gotten a kill. However I decided to see if I could get more out of it. After a near miss I came around and after an aborted energy circle I managed to get my nose on him and when I pulled my nose past him I took the shot, with the 9X easily shooting him down.

 

Takeaways... Not sure since I was in a better aircraft with the PAK-FA more "realistically" set as far as engine power and weight. However with the better capabilities of the F/A-18F I had better control and was generally able to keep my nose on him, and not use my afterburner. Though I think the AI honestly needs to be slightly better in order to be "interesting"

 

But it has been awhile so I need to shake off the rust as far as my evaluations though...

[xclusiv8 35]

It would be great if someone could record their encounters. Would be awesome to see in motion :)

[+EricJ 3,994]

Me: Fenrir with AIM-9X with 6 x AIM-120

Opposition: F/A-18F EPE with 2 x AIM-9X and 6 x AIM-120

 

Having test flown the Fenrir (yes it's an Ace Combat jet well done by cadetBRA) one of the concerns is that it moves fast... and real fast, I think on the order of Mach 5 or some high number. The problem is that it moves too fast, which is what you need to be aware of when dealing with highly maneuverable opponents. You need to keep the throttle down in order to be successful in the knife fight with this aircraft. For the most part the Hornet kept me busy by weaving and me almost sticking nose in it's butt. After an energy circle I went vertical and rolled into him and had a nice calm moment where I also could have put one in his tailpipe. If you keep your speed low you can stay in the fight and not get stuck with trying to get an enemy on your six. If not you'll overshoot and end up an IRM target. After overshooting him he plugged me with a 9X and after I tried to shoot him with my own I realized hey... I was dead. Though in all honesty my "return" 9X went stoopid because the Hornet moved out of the way.

 

Takeaways: Simple speed management when dealing with maneuverable aircraft. Remember you go faster so consequently your turn radius will be more limited and it'll be harder to get out of once he's on your six and has a heater headed for your tailpipe. Don't get me wrong the Fenrir is of course well done and very nice to look at but again... watch the throttle. Recommendation is like 20% though for tight turning it handles fine even on full burner, but keep in mind don't hit full burner while in a straight line as on full burner it'll give you the energy you need, only when pulling tight turns.

[Caesar 305]

It would be great if someone could record their encounters. Would be awesome to see in motion :)

 

 

Like this?

 

Gotta say, this was the first DACT I did when I got back - got FRAPS updated (older version didn't work with latest SF2) and wanted to record something. It ain't spectacular, actually pretty dull, but it is an example of an energy fight against the MiG-29.

[xclusiv8 35]

 

Like this?

 

Gotta say, this was the first DACT I did when I got back - got FRAPS updated (older version didn't work with latest SF2) and wanted to record something. It ain't spectacular, actually pretty dull, but it is an example of an energy fight against the MiG-29.

 

Thats what im talking about!!! Great stuff :) And we that are a little uneducated when it comes to aerial fighting can learn from the pros :) Always easier when seen in motion. Thank you.