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Stipe

Croatian air force MiG-21 replacement

  

31 members have voted

  1. 1. My question is, which plane do you think wood be best suited for Croatia?

    • SAAB Gripen C/D/NG
      16
    • F-16MLU Block 15
      3
    • MiG-29M
      1
    • MiG-35
      4
    • Dassault Rafale
      0
    • Mirage 2000
      2
    • Eurofighter Typhoon
      2
    • F-4 Phanton IDS (donated from Germany)
      2
    • MiG-21 Bison (India)
      0
    • hopeless modernization of the MiG-21s
      2


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The Croatian air force (supersonic fighter department) consists of 5-8 modernized MiG-21BisD (10 not modernized in storage) and are at the end of their service life and are soon to be replaced.

MIG-21BISD115CLOFTINGIMG_65111.jpg

Here is some more information on the subject :

 

Due to the global economic crisis which also affected Croatia, the decision on which fighter type should eventually enter service has been deferred until 2011, rather than by 2009 as was initially planned. This will see new aircraft enter service no sooner than 2012–2013. At the same time, after years of research and discussions, Air Force experts have released the study on new fighter procurement which states that Croatian Air Force needs at least 16 to 18 fighters in order to fulfill all its duties. As an interim solution the possibility of reactivating six to seven MiG-21s (out of 12 stored a few years ago) was mentioned in 2009 by some media. Similarly, there was also the possibility of one additional overhaul to the existing MiGs which was to prolong their life for another five years facilitating thus the burden of the fighter procurement costs on the country's budget. However, this possibility was officially rejected and on April 11, 2011 the Minister of Defence confirmed that Croatia will maintain a fleet of fighter aircraft and that it will not relegate its airspace control to any of the NATO membering countries. He also added that the decision on which aircraft to obtain will be brought in the upcoming months but having in mind not only the needs of the military but also of the entire country's economy

 

In March 2011 a new information appeared in the Croatian media citing that Germany was prepared to donate (or sell cheaply) up to 20 of its F-4 Phanton II fighters to Croatia. Soon after, a similar offer was proposed by the Swedish Air Force which is willing to donate a squadron of its second-hand SAAB Gripen aircraft free of charge to match German offer. Both proposals along with numerous other possibilities are currently under revision. The last one, from February 2012., speculates about F-16 Block 15 fighters from the Dutch Air Force.

 

Persistent media reports and ministerial statements focus on a life extension program for the existing HRZ MiG-21 fleet as a lower cost short-term alternative. The most recent reports suggest that Romanian company Aerostar – who upgraded the HRZ MiG-21 fleet to bisD / UMD standard in 2003 – will perform a limited overhaul on 12 aircraft (8 single-seat, 4 twin-seat) without any systems upgrades. It is unclear, but there are suggestions that this may involve surplus Romanian LanceR airframes. Following an accident with a MiG-21UMD (the aircraft popularly known as 'Kockica') losing its canopy during a post-maintenance flight, on 20 June 2012 the Defence Minister issued a statement that a replacement aircraft or refurbishment package would be selected within 45 days. Despite the Minister's statement no announcement was made and the next development came on 8 October 2012 when Saab offered Croatia a financing deal for 6 single-seat and 2 twin-seat JAS39C/D Gripen. No further statement was released within the deadline for the Gripen purchase.

Although as with all Croatian military purchases official detail is sketchy, but media reports are consistent that the HRZ has opted to send the MiG-21UM/D fleet and possibly an additional two attrition replacement MiG-21UM for overhaul in either Romania or Ukraine.

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Viewing Croatia's neighbors and existing global defense agreements, the Gripen or F-16 seem to be a reasonable choice. A new kind modernization like Bison or Lancer would delay the deadline once more.

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The only real threat is Serbia with its ex-Yugoslav MiG-29s.

Edited by Stipe

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The only real threat is Serbia with its ex-Yugoslav MiG-29s.

 

Stipe, if you didn't know, this isn't 1991, war is over. If Serbia or Yugoslavia if you more like didn't use MiG-29 in war period I can't see why they would use it now, also I really can't see why Serbia would attack Croatia today or Croatia Serbia. That war era came to an end, I mean about war between your two unfortunately brother nations.

 

Reason why Croatia need to buy a new plane is not to pay Italy or Hungary to guard you air space, there isn't other reason...

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Stipe, if you didn't know, this isn't 1991, war is over. If Serbia or Yugoslavia if you more like didn't use MiG-29 in war period I can't see why they would use it now, also I really can't see why Serbia would attack Croatia today or Croatia Serbia. That war era came to an end, I mean about war between your two unfortunately brother nations.

 

Reason why Croatia need to buy a new plane is not to pay Italy or Hungary to guard you air space, there isn't other reason...

 

Where you there?? I was!!!

(And there is still some friction between the relationship of the two states)

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The only real threat is Serbia with its ex-Yugoslav MiG-29s.

 

Oh, by "neighbors" I just want to talk about Croatia's 'allied' States around, meaning something like an alignement on the same rails could facilitate the transfer of knowledge between nations, at least until the crisis disappears.

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You are getting off the subject mate, so there's no need to upset yourself. I just said what I know and that's MiG-29 were NOT used over Croatia, only MiG-21s, Super Galeb and Jastreb school planes...that's about it. Also there were not any dogfights over Croatia in war time.

Edited by Josef88

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Seriously though no mention of the JF-17, comes relatively cheap, around the 20 million USD mark. Putting aside the bias of it not being "western" for the price it gives potential customers a very decent air-air capability. That being said its probabbly SAAB that can offer some great lease deals with support and maintenance.

 

Forget the F-16 too expensive.

  • Like 1

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I dont know why there is no mention of it, the planes that are menioned are only he planes that are in the competition (except for the Mirage F1 which is almost just as obsolete as the MiGs and Phantoms),I think its not in the competition becouse of its nationality (I didint make the list, the air force made it).

Edited by Stipe

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The trick is not to get the planes with the highest possible performance, but the planes with the right performance.

If you look to Croatia, so the answer is that the czech L159 ALCA or the british Hawk or the italian M-346 would be enough.

 

The ALCA and the Hawk with Blue Vixen Radar are AMRAAM capable and could work well in the air denfence role. They easily can reach speeds around 1.000 hph, which would be enough for such a small country like Croatia. And this planes can fly slow, so that they also can intercept slow prop planes like Cessnas.

And the major point, they are not so expensive and their operation costs are low. All planey you have in your list are more or less expensive to operate.

 

The threat potential of Croatias neighbours are relativly low, so high end fighters are not really needed.

It this should change more potential planes could aquired and pilots who are skilled on the ALCA, Hawk or M346 could easily transfer to the real fighters.

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I agree with you about the operaiting cost, but what do you do when a B-1B comes flying over at mach 2 and you have no SAMs?

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Gripen would be fine. Also you can get help and experience data from next door from Hungary. They also start the patrol service for Slovenia sometime soon.

Also what the pilots would like to have and what would get from the gov. will be different.

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Time for my Grand Slam :D

 

Piper Cub with Stingers and an M-60.

Sure but first NATO wouldn't count that as air-policing sufficient and second killing the tradition of educating and training jet pilots would be a completely retarded move as re-building and creating from scratch is insanely more expensive and challenging than maintaining the existing one.

Seriously though no mention of the JF-17, comes relatively cheap, around the 20 million USD mark. Putting aside the bias of it not being "western" for the price it gives potential customers a very decent air-air capability. That being said its probabbly SAAB that can offer some great lease deals with support and maintenance.

Absolutely agree not just JF-17 and J-10 for example but Russians offer some pretty cool hardware for a very small price however politics is a MAJOR issue here.

Forget the F-16 too expensive.

True, but realistically, it really shouldn't be...

The trick is not to get the planes with the highest possible performance, but the planes with the right performance.

If you look to Croatia, so the answer is that the czech L159 ALCA or the british Hawk or the italian M-346 would be enough.

 

The ALCA and the Hawk with Blue Vixen Radar are AMRAAM capable and could work well in the air denfence role. They easily can reach speeds around 1.000 hph, which would be enough for such a small country like Croatia. And this planes can fly slow, so that they also can intercept slow prop planes like Cessnas.

And the major point, they are not so expensive and their operation costs are low. All planey you have in your list are more or less expensive to operate.

 

The threat potential of Croatias neighbours are relativly low, so high end fighters are not really needed.

It this should change more potential planes could aquired and pilots who are skilled on the ALCA, Hawk or M346 could easily transfer to the real fighters.

I really like the L159 idea, for training, light strike, etc. But it's no interceptor 1000kph is the speed of commercial flights so you can't even intercept those with the L-159, at least 12 true M1.0+ interceptors are needed, at least. Also keep in mind that while total surface of Croatia is small we have a really F'ed up shape.

I agree with you about the operaiting cost, but what do you do when a B-1B comes flying over at mach 2 and you have no SAMs?

What do you do? Well when friends come I usually offer some coffee or something like that, also B-1B will not come at M2.0 that's for sure, I think 1.6 max? Joking aside I understand your point and agree.

Gripen would be fine. Also you can get help and experience data from next door from Hungary. They also start the patrol service for Slovenia sometime soon.

Also what the pilots would like to have and what would get from the gov. will be different.

Gripen rocks, I love it, offer is great and the offset is awsome, fact is that even in this time I'm pretty sure we have the money, had the money before but may not have it later when stupid *ss politicians spend it on stupidity and own well-being. And when we speak about money, I ask what is the price of sovereignty?

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You forgot the fact that they wear the CroAF marks, make them exciting. It's my Polish girlfirend who will be mad at me, she knows that I have a preference for the southern States....

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I understand what he is saying, but I don't understand why he wood post that??

 

 

Sorry I didint know.

Edited by Stipe

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I don't know, I think it might be better to just go with some good SAMs and AAA. As mentioned, good fighters are expensive. Cheap fighters are vulnerable. Plus you have that whole deconfliction thing to make sure your SAMs don't fire at your fighters in friendly territory. If you don't have any fighters, your SAMs and AAA can let loose.

 

Croatia's security situation doesn't make a new fighter an imperative, and the last thing it needs is to start some sort of local arms race which it can't afford.

 

Of course, there are possibilities like old Gripen A's (getting mothballed in Sweden) or Typhoon Tranche 1's (getting retired vs upgraded or kept in the UK) so you could get a good deal on a less-capable version of a current plane.

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F16 MLU would probably come cheaply, including support, training and weapons. Gripens would also be a logical choice as Sweden has ordered new ones and is getting rid of the A models.....

Edited by Derk

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If Croatia would by the Eurofighter or other high end fighters it would become a finacial disaster. It are not only the costs for the plane. There are costs for spare parts, training, fuel and and and.

A fleet of Eurofighters, or Hornets, or MiG-35 or Gripens would be nice to see on the taxiways or in the shelters. But you wont see them very often in the air, because the operational costs are much to high.

 

Its the same old story. If you ask a man which car he wants to drive, then you get the answer: Porsche, Ferrari, Rolls (add whatever you want). And then ask which car he is really driving and you get answers like Volkswagen, Peugeot, Seat, Fiat, Chevrolet or some jap cars.

And now ask yourself why it is. The first are dream cars, but does not fit the daily needs, the laters are not glamorous, but fit the daily needs.

The same is with the planes for an Air Force. Of course it would be nice to have the best of the best. But do you really need the most highly developte stealth plane which causes costs without end or do you need a low cost working horse for all day jobs?

How often do you really need to intercept hostile B-2's or B-1's or Tu-160 and how often do you have to intercept Cessnas whos pilots are unable to find home?

You must ask for what job do you need a plane and then you must choose the plane which can do the job for the lowest price.

So simple. But the best solution does surely not fit the need for glamour and thatswhy it is so difficult to choose the best solution.

 

And this would be the best solution for croatia: Alenia M-346 Master. Mach 1+ capable light combat plane and trainer.

 

post-3395-0-95197800-1361094034.jpg

Edited by Gepard

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