+ravenclaw_007 7,633 Posted March 20, 2013 does anybody have a picture showing a AGM-12E with a cluster munition warhead ???? i´m searching one urgently Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stipe 56 Posted March 20, 2013 Just search on google and you will find some pictures. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+ravenclaw_007 7,633 Posted March 20, 2013 you are the best , if i would have found a single picture i would not ask for help 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GodsLt 3 Posted March 20, 2013 Stipe...please... I think Raven_Claw is smart enough to google for stuff before he asks for it. Plus, after all of what he's done, I think he's entitled to some help, would you not agree? As to Raven, I'll get home in a couple of hours, and I'll try to help you with your research. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+ravenclaw_007 7,633 Posted March 20, 2013 an other thing i need info on is the clipped wing AIM-12C/E , when and why was it used for normal AIM-12C/E wing clipped AIM-12C/E wing Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+daddyairplanes 10,252 Posted March 21, 2013 (edited) Federation american scientists page states the C was the bullpup b, with 1000 lb warhead, better than measly 250 pounder of the original. the E was a cluster bomb variant for anti AAA or SAM work only 840 built. Only educated guess on clip wings is maybe carriage on Skyhawks? The did carry Bullpups but were the smallest to do so. Hope this helps Edited March 21, 2013 by daddyairplanes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GodsLt 3 Posted March 21, 2013 This might be waaaaay off into dreamy land, but could've the clipped wing-tips mean internal carriage? (B-1B, F-111, etc?) Or as daddy-airplanes said, to be able to fit in smaller attack aircraft without interfering with the landing gear, etc. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+ravenclaw_007 7,633 Posted March 21, 2013 yap , i think it may have to do with pylon / landig gear clearance , i have one picture showing the C with clipped wings on a F-4E and some pictures showing both versions on the A-4 , so if there is a rule about the version i still dont get it clipped wings on F-4E normal wings on A-4 clipped wings on A-4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Svetlin 545 Posted March 21, 2013 In the late 1950s there were experiments in USA with wing-clipping (but mostly if not entirely on triangular/delta wings) as scientists were looking to reduce drag and therefore increase speed and/or range of the object. I wonder if by clipping the wings of the Bullpup, the producer might have been looking to achieve aerodynamic benefit? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Spillone104 553 Posted March 21, 2013 Maybe as Svetlin said it could be a later wing configuration. I've not find a single image that truly show an E model. :( Out of curiosity... what kind of fuse or variant is that AGM-12B on the outer pylon on the color picture of the scooter? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+ravenclaw_007 7,633 Posted March 21, 2013 (edited) i´m not sure but maybe the fuse is not fully installed yet ??? i was wondering my self what configuration that may be , a extended fuze would not realy make sense Edited March 21, 2013 by ravenclaw_007 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+331Killerbee 840 Posted March 22, 2013 (edited) does anybody have a picture showing a AGM-12E with a cluster munition warhead ???? i´m searching one urgently I loaded one in 1977 on a A-4M with VMA-331 at CAX 7-77, 29 Palms, CA. The "E" is the same as the Fat Bodied "C". But where as the "High Explosive" Yellow Band on the "C" is toward the Nose, The "E" has it's Yellow Band around the Body, Mid way, with "CLUSTER BOMB UNIT" Stenciled on it in Black on the Yellow Line 4 times equally. an other thing i need info on is the clipped wing AIM-12C/E , when and why was it used for In Vietnam, enemy gunners on the ground adapted to the Bullpup launch methodology by firing toward the incoming smoke trail from the missile's flares, allowing them to hit launching aircraft. Pilots countered by jigging their flight path slightly to avoid anti-aircraft fire, with some success. The AGM-12C Bullpup B represented a major step forward for the Bullpup. The missile was given a larger body section, enlarged wings, and a new Thiokol rocket engine with much greater thrust. This variant was first tested in 1962, and entered service in 1964. This was also the first variant adopted by the U.S. Air Force. The "Clipped Fins" were due to the extension of the Slats on A-4's and F-4E's. The Fins would sometimes touch the Slats durning Launch and would make it a handful to control by Pilot's Joy Stick. Fin changes were done at the Intermediate level Maintence Squadrons in the Air Force, Navy/Marines. This modifications began early 1968. i´m not sure but maybe the fuse is not fully installed yet ??? i was wondering my self what configuration that may be , a extended fuze would not realy make sense Proximity Fuze. Very, Very Rare. Semper Fi! 331KillerBee Edited March 22, 2013 by 331Killerbee 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+ravenclaw_007 7,633 Posted March 22, 2013 Thanks a lot KillerBee do you remeber if the AIM-12E had some special visible join like a cluster bomb , or how did the center section of the E release the bomblets ????? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spinners 15,986 Posted March 22, 2013 The lack of a Third Wire 'Bullpup' is strange isn't it? These look awesome and remind me of those splendid Hasegawa Weapon Sets. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+ravenclaw_007 7,633 Posted March 22, 2013 @. KillerBee , if i make a model of the AGM-12B with Proximity Fuze what settings would i have to change in the weaponsdata_ini Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+331Killerbee 840 Posted March 23, 2013 @. KillerBee , if i make a model of the AGM-12B with Proximity Fuze what settings would i have to change in the weaponsdata_ini Fuzing Distance (M) set to 1000 This is the best way to simulate it given the limitations of the Game. I'm getting in touch with a Buddy of mine that was in the USAF and handled AGM-12E's. Give Me a Day or Two. He knows all about them... I'll get that Info for You too. 331KillerBee 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+ravenclaw_007 7,633 Posted March 23, 2013 Thank you so much Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+331Killerbee 840 Posted March 25, 2013 (edited) OK Raven, Here we go. My buddy served at Korat AB in the Early 70's. He was in a F-4E Squadron. He told Me that they used AGM-12E's only when the supply of AGM-45's was real low. He didn't have a real Picture of one, But he found one on the Net that was real close. It's of a Model of a AGM-12, but he said that there was only one problem. That it's marked "AGM-12D" when it's otherwise marked as a "E". Here it is........ Now how it works is this...... As the Proximity Fuze goes off, The Band behind the G&C is allowed to fall away because it detonates a small Charge that opens the Tapered Section behind the G&C.( This is noted by the heavy Lines on the Tapered Section) Yes it Clam Shells but this is not how it disperses. It's only to allow the G&C to fall away. About 1/2 Second Later, The Fuze finishes it's sequence by blasting out 830 of these little Toys "SHOT GUN STYLE"........... This is what I recommend as Data for Your "E"......... [WeaponData001] TypeName=AGM-12E FullName=AGM-12E Anti-Air Defence Bullpup-B ModelName=AGM-12C Mass=810.000000 Diameter=0.420000 Length=4.140000 SubsonicDragCoeff=0.120000 SupersonicDragCoeff=0.222000 AttachmentType=NATO,USAF,UK,ISRAEL,TAIWAN,NORWAY SpecificStationCode= NationName=USAF StartYear=1967 EndYear=1976 Availability=2 BaseQuantity=8 Exported=TRUE ExportStartYear=1963 ExportEndYear=1983 ExportAvailability=1 WeaponDataType=1 RailLaunched=FALSE RocketPod=FALSE Retarded=FALSE FinStabilized=TRUE SpinStabilized=TRUE HasGrowl=FALSE EffectClassName=ClusterBombEffects ReleaseDelay=0.500000 WarheadType=10 Explosives=453.000000 FusingDistance=200.000000 ClusterBomblets=830 ClusterDispersion=0.500000 GuidanceType=2 Accuracy=60 MaxTurnRate=4.000000 MaxLaunchG=2.500000 LockonChance=80 LaunchReliability=80 ArmingTime=6.000000 SeekerFOV=46.000000 SeekerGimbleLimit=46.000000 SeekerTrackRate=11.000000 SeekerRange=20000.000000 CLmax=14.000000 MinFreq=0.000000 MaxFreq=0.000000 MinLaunchRange=2000.000000 MaxLaunchRange=16000.000000 Duration=150.000000 CounterCountermeasure=0.000000 NoiseRejection=0.000000 CapabilityFlags=0x00000000 LoftAngle=0.000000 DescentAngle=0.000000 MaxLoftAltitude=0.000000 BoosterStart=0.500000 BoosterDuration=10.000000 BoosterAccel=6.070000 BoosterEffectName=MissileFireEffect BoosterSoundName=Missile BoosterNodeName= BoosterPosition=0.000000,-1.600000,0.000000 SustainerDuration=0.000000 SustainerAccel=0.000000 SustainerEffectName= SustainerSoundName= SustainerPosition=0.000000,-1.600000,0.000000 InFlightEffectName=MissileInFlightFlareEffect InFlightSoundName= ReleaseAnimationID=-1 EODisplayFlags=0 CEP=0.000000 I hope this has been of some Help to You. Just Hollar' if You have any more Questions. Semper FI! 331KillerBee Edited March 25, 2013 by 331Killerbee 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Centurion-1 1,228 Posted March 25, 2013 Wow, that's cool! Some thing you just can't get from the net! I wonder what the combat efficiency of it was? AFAIK this is the only cluster-missile carried by US tactical aircraft, or am I wrong? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+331Killerbee 840 Posted March 25, 2013 Wow, that's cool! Some thing you just can't get from the net! I wonder what the combat efficiency of it was? AFAIK this is the only cluster-missile carried by US tactical aircraft, or am I wrong? What I was told was that It was real accurate in a two-Seater Role. Not so much as a single-Seater due to Pilot Workload. It's Radio Controlled. A German WWII Technology. Yes, It's the only Missle I ever knew of that had Cluster Bomb Warhead up until 1992. That's when I Retired. After that, Who knows? They may have several different Types by now. 331KillerBee Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+ravenclaw_007 7,633 Posted March 25, 2013 Thank you KillerBee , i will make it that way Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cleaver 5 Posted March 1, 2014 (edited) Gentlemen, I collect inert ordnance related items, including rockets, missiles and parts. I recently purchased an AGM-12 nosecone and a set of wings from a surplus dealer. According to the markings, it will fit a B-2, B-3, or C-2 series Bullpup. I found your discussion while digging to the bottom of the Internet, in search of information, and especially photos that show enough detail to build the body of the missile in exact detail. The nosecone I have includes a Mk15 T.D.D. (target detection device), which I believe is what the Scooter is wearing on its outboard hardpoint, in the photo that Ravenclaw_007 provided. That is the ONLY photo on this man's Internet that I could find of that device, on or off of a Bullpup. Thank you, Ravenclaw! I was hoping that the dealer I bought the nosecone from had a set of wings for a C model, because that is just a better looking missile to me, than the B, but I'm happy that I don't have to build either set. I realize what a TDD does, many missiles and mines have them, but I haven't found any information on why a few Bullpups had them. As 331Killerbee pointed out, it was very rare, but can you tell me why they used it? Special targets? Perhaps just for testing that particular TDD? Any information would be much appreciated. I'll attempt to post a photo of the nosecone and one wing, in case anyone cares to see the details of it. I noticed that all the wings are cast aluminum and have a slight bend built into rear, outboard tip. No deformation of the paint, all are identical, so it doesn't look like a demil process. I can't imagine them spinning like a bullet, so there has to be a different reason for the bends. Anyway, thanks for some great reading! Edited March 1, 2014 by Cleaver 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+ravenclaw_007 7,633 Posted March 1, 2014 Thank you so much , great picture is it possible to get some more close up pictures of that nose cone ??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cleaver 5 Posted March 2, 2014 Absolutely, Ravenclaw! I just uploaded 40 pics to the same folder. Yeah, that's probably overkill... I included some close ups of one of the wings too. They are all the same, less serial numbers and date of manufacture. One is a Rev. G, the other three are Rev. E. Being new to this forum, (the only forum I've ever joined...) I'm not sure if I should just leave them in the folder, or drag them into this thread. Let me know if you would like any other photos or different angles of anything. I also have an AIM-4E Falcon (an old beater that I haven't started work on yet) and a full set of fins and wings for an AIM-9L/M, if you need any photos of those. I can accurately measure any features, if that is helpful to you. I take back what I said earlier about the missile spinning like a bullet. I watched a couple of videos on YT that clearly show that Bullpups spin counterclockwise, (looks more like a corkscrew) which is what the bent wing tips would cause. It makes me wonder how the guidance system knew which direction was up or down if it was constantly changing... I plan on making a trip to the Air Force museum in Dayton, OH in a couple of months to get a bunch of decent photos of the details I need. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
