What's the major difference between pics and which one is correct?

[+CrazyhorseB34 937]

I think it would be a safe bet to say that the deletion of the wing AIM-7 came when the jets went through N or S conversion. Funny the original F-4C's where delivered with the "navy pylons."

Edited April 14, 2013 by CrazyhorseB34

[+streakeagle 864]

Look in the color pic section of the same Osprey book and there is a pic of an F-4J with AIM-7 on inner pylon. If you use the "navy inner pylon" then you can shoot AIM-7..... Bwild I was thinking the same thing I had already made the two new stations before you even posted. I think I might have originally put the wrong node name. Good stuff!

 

^{Page 42, picture 11.}

 

That pic pretty squarely locks down the case for Navy F-4s.

Early production F-4Js were nearly identical to F-4Bs in terms of controls and avionics.

155553 was a Block 33ag F-4J, which I am guessing would have been late enough in production to have the AWG-10 and updated control panel that became the standard for the F-4S.

 

In other words, I am agreeing with Ravenclaw that the USN F-4s always had/retained the wing Sparrows.

But I think F-4Cs and F-4Ds ended up matching the F-4E with field mods substituting other capabilities (nuclear is what is claimed on the website reference).

 

F-4Ds are a strange case, as Sidewinder capability was removed/replaced by Falcons.

They had to be modded back to supporting Sidewinders.

So illogical deletions of capabilities are not only possible but actually happened.

Edited April 14, 2013 by streakeagle

[+CrazyhorseB34 937]

155553 crashed in 1972. Roger all above!

[+ravenclaw_007 7,221]

Clearly, from the photos I can find, the Australians operated the F-4E with USAF style pylons, but were initially delivered with Navy style pylons and their loadouts had little to do with whether they were usuable or not.

 

 

only few Navy pylons are delivered to the RAAF , the Navy pylon was used for Air to Air missions and missile test only but this missions are very rare

 

the loadout in your picture was on a weapon evaluation test flight , there are 2 wings removed from the AIM-7 for the mounting of the AIM-9

 

here is the only picture i have of a F-4 with 6 Sparrows

Edited April 14, 2013 by ravenclaw_007

[Derk 265]

Slightly off topic but I found it most odd that the Airfix 1/72 scale kit (covering the B, C, D, early E and J) totally ignored the the carriage of the 'normal' inner wing 4 x Aim-9 loadout but did have the different pylon for inner wing Sparrows. Buying this kit exactly 40 years ago was a magical experience for me and I thought it was the coolest looking aircraft ever.

 

Got that one too, it is one of my eldest scale models, first half of the '60's (I think), still there, in good shape although it is only now, after about 50 (!) years that I find out that either I have to remove the centerline tank, or the two front end fuselage Sparrows...

[MigBuster 2,861]

Got that one too, it is one of my eldest scale models, first half of the '60's (I think), still there, in good shape although it is only now, after about 50 (!) years that I find out that either I have to remove the centerline tank, or the two front end fuselage Sparrows...

 

Just inform the plastic pilots that they must jettison the tank first

[Spinners 15,966]

Just inform the plastic pilots that they must jettison the tank first

 

I thought we were the plastic pilots.

[Derk 265]

Just inform the plastic pilots that they must jettison the tank first

Well, why should they anyway, they are plastic Sparrows only....

Edited April 14, 2013 by Derk

[Sheriff001 397]

By the way, I'd also suggest copying the various Sparrows you want to use, and changing the copied versions to rail launched.

[Sheriff001 397]

I tried that ini edit on an F-4K, and I couldn't get the Sparrows to show up. Here are the stations:

 

[LeftOuterWingStation]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=1

StationGroupID=1

StationType=EXTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=-3.47,0.37,-1.18

AttachmentAngles=0.0,-1.0,0.0

LoadLimit=1600

AllowedWeaponClass=BOMB,LGB,ARM,GP,IFP,MER,RP,LP,EOGR,EOGB,CGR,TER

AttachmentType=NATO,USN

RackLimitOutsideOnly=TRUE

ModelNodeName=wing_pylon_armament_L

PylonMass=52.62

PylondragArea=0.02

 

[RightOuterWingStation]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=2

StationGroupID=1

StationType=EXTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=3.47,0.37,-1.18

AttachmentAngles=0.0,-1.0,0.0

LoadLimit=1600

AllowedWeaponClass=BOMB,LGB,ARM,GP,IFP,MER,RP,EOGR,EOGB,CGR,TER

AttachmentType=NATO,USN

RackLimitOutsideOnly=TRUE

ModelNodeName=wing_pylon_armament_R

PylonMass=52.62

PylondragArea=0.02

 

[LeftInnerWingStation]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=3

StationGroupID=3

StationType=EXTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=-2.05,2.74,-1.28

AttachmentAngles=0.0,-1.0,0.0

LoadLimit=1400

AllowedWeaponClass=BOMB,LGB,EOGB,NUC,EOGR,ARM,EP,TER,TLR,RP,CGR

AttachmentType=NATO,USN

ModelNodeName=adapter_inner_L

PylonMass=10.89

PylondragArea=0.00

LaunchRailNodeName=

MinExtentPosition=

MaxExtentPosition=

 

[RightInnerWingStation]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=4

StationGroupID=3

StationType=EXTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=2.05,2.74,-1.28

AttachmentAngles=0.0,-1.0,0.0

LoadLimit=1400

AllowedWeaponClass=BOMB,LGB,EOGB,NUC,EOGR,ARM,EP,TER,TLR,RP,CGR

AttachmentType=NATO,USN

ModelNodeName=adapter_inner_R

PylonMass=10.89

PylondragArea=0.00

LaunchRailNodeName=

MinExtentPosition=

MaxExtentPosition=

 

[CenterlineStation]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=5

StationGroupID=5

StationType=EXTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=0.0,0.37,-1.01

AttachmentAngles=0.0,-2.0,0.0

LoadLimit=2050

AllowedWeaponClass=BOMB,LGB,EOGB,NUC,EOGR,ARM,EP,TER,TLR,RP,GP,MER,RCN,LP,DLP

AttachmentType=NATO,USN

ModelNodeName=pylon_centerline

PylonMass=24.95

PylondragArea=0.02

LaunchRailNodeName=

MinExtentPosition=

MaxExtentPosition=

 

[sparrowStation1]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=6

StationGroupID=6

StationType=SEMI_RECESSED

AttachmentPosition=-0.501,5.07,-0.84

AttachmentAngles=2.0,0.0,2.0

MissileRollAngle=45.0

EjectVelocity=0.0,0.0,-2.0

LoadLimit=231.5

AllowedWeaponClass=SAHM,EP,LP

AttachmentType=NATO,USN

MinExtentPosition=

MaxExtentPosition=

 

[sparrowStation2]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=7

StationGroupID=4

StationType=SEMI_RECESSED

AttachmentPosition=0.501,5.07,-0.84

AttachmentAngles=-2.0,0.0,-2.0

MissileRollAngle=45.0

EjectVelocity=0.0,0.0,-2.0

LoadLimit=231.5

AllowedWeaponClass=SAHM

AttachmentType=NATO,USN

MinExtentPosition=

MaxExtentPosition=

 

[sparrowStation3]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=8

StationGroupID=4

StationType=SEMI_RECESSED

AttachmentPosition=-1.08,-0.65,-0.87

AttachmentAngles=0.0,2.0,5.0

MissileRollAngle=45.0

EjectVelocity=0.0,0.0,-2.0

LoadLimit=231.5

AllowedWeaponClass=SAHM

AttachmentType=NATO,USN

MinExtentPosition=

MaxExtentPosition=

 

[sparrowStation4]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=9

StationGroupID=4

StationType=SEMI_RECESSED

AttachmentPosition=1.08,-0.65,-0.87

AttachmentAngles=0.0,2.0,-5.0

MissileRollAngle=45.0

EjectVelocity=0.0,0.0,-2.0

LoadLimit=231.5

AllowedWeaponClass=SAHM

AttachmentType=NATO,USN

MinExtentPosition=

MaxExtentPosition=

 

[sidewinderStation1]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=10

StationGroupID=2

GroupLimit=3

StationType=EXTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=-2.24,2.63,-1.18

AttachmentAngles=0.0,-1.0,90.0

LoadLimit=120

DiameterLimit=0.15

AllowedWeaponClass=IRM,RP

AttachmentType=NATO,USN

ModelNodeName=missile_rails_L

PylonMass=39.46

PylondragArea=0.001

LaunchRailNodeName=

MinExtentPosition=

MaxExtentPosition=

 

[sidewinderStation2]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=11

StationGroupID=2

GroupLimit=3

StationType=EXTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=2.24,2.63,-1.18

AttachmentAngles=0.0,-1.0,-90.0

LoadLimit=120

DiameterLimit=0.15

AllowedWeaponClass=IRM,RP

AttachmentType=NATO,USN

ModelNodeName=missile_rails_R

PylonMass=39.46

PylondragArea=0.001

LaunchRailNodeName=

MinExtentPosition=

MaxExtentPosition=

 

[sidewinderStation3]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=12

StationGroupID=2

GroupLimit=3

StationType=EXTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=-1.86,2.63,-1.18

AttachmentAngles=0.0,-1.0,-90.0

LoadLimit=120

DiameterLimit=0.15

AllowedWeaponClass=IRM,RP

AttachmentType=NATO,USN

ModelNodeName=missile_rails_L

PylonMass=39.46

PylondragArea=0.001

LaunchRailNodeName=

MinExtentPosition=

MaxExtentPosition=

 

[sidewinderStation4]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=13

StationGroupID=2

GroupLimit=3

StationType=EXTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=1.86,2.63,-1.18

AttachmentAngles=0.0,-1.0,90.0

LoadLimit=120

DiameterLimit=0.15

AllowedWeaponClass=IRM,RP

AttachmentType=NATO,USN

ModelNodeName=missile_rails_R

PylonMass=39.46

PylondragArea=0.001

LaunchRailNodeName=

MinExtentPosition=

MaxExtentPosition=

 

[LeftOuterWingStationWet]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=14

StationGroupID=1

StationType=EXTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=-3.47,0.37,-1.10

AttachmentAngles=0.0,-2.0,0.0

EjectVelocity=0.0,-1.0,-4.0

LoadLimit=1600

AllowedWeaponClass=FT

AttachmentType=NATO,USN

ModelNodeName=wing_pylon_fueltank_L

PylonMass=41.73

PylondragArea=0.02

LaunchRailNodeName=

MinExtentPosition=

MaxExtentPosition=

FuelTankName=Tank370_F4

FuelTankNodeName=wing_pylon_fueltank_L

 

[RightOuterWingStationWet]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=15

StationGroupID=1

StationType=EXTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=3.47,0.37,-1.10

AttachmentAngles=0.0,-2.0,0.0

EjectVelocity=0.0,-1.0,-4.0

LoadLimit=1600

AllowedWeaponClass=FT

AttachmentType=NATO,USN

ModelNodeName=wing_pylon_fueltank_R

PylonMass=41.73

PylondragArea=0.02

LaunchRailNodeName=

MinExtentPosition=

MaxExtentPosition=

FuelTankName=Tank370_F4

FuelTankNodeName=wing_pylon_fueltank_R

 

[CenterlineStationWet]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=16

StationGroupID=5

StationType=EXTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=0.0,0.37,-0.96

AttachmentAngles=0.0,-2.0,0.0

LoadLimit=2050

AllowedWeaponClass=FT

AttachmentType=NATO,USN

ModelNodeName=

PylonMass=0.0

PylondragArea=0.00

LaunchRailNodeName=

MinExtentPosition=

MaxExtentPosition=

FuelTankName=Tank600_F4

FuelTankNodeName=droptank_centerline

 

[sparrowWingStationLeft]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=17

StationGroupID=6

GroupLimit=3

StationType=EXTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=-2.05,2.74,-1.22

AttachmentAngles=0.0,-1.0,0.0

LoadLimit=1400

AllowedWeaponClass=SAHM

AttachmentType=NATO,USN

ModelNodeName=

PylonMass=10.89

PylondragArea=0.00

LaunchRailNodeName=

MinExtentPosition=

MaxExtentPosition=

 

[sparrowWingStationRight]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=18

StationGroupID=6

GroupLimit=3

StationType=EXTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=2.05,2.74,-1.22

AttachmentAngles=0.0,-1.0,0.0

LoadLimit=1400

AllowedWeaponClass=SAHM

AttachmentType=NATO,USN

ModelNodeName=

PylonMass=10.89

PylondragArea=0.00

LaunchRailNodeName=

MinExtentPosition=

MaxExtentPosition=

[+streakeagle 864]

I have been playing with the edits for the F-4B.

I have run into a minor problem: either the pylon is too short or the missile is too long (whether I use the stock AIM-7D or the one in Ravenclaw's F-4E release).

I am guessing it is the pylon.

From photos, it seems that the point where the leading edge of the forward fin more or less marks where the missile lines up on a panel line on the pylon.

When I do so, the missile seems to project out too far compared to the photos and the rear of the missile remains to close to the end of the pylon (there should be a gap from the back of the pylon to the back of the missile).

It still looks pretty good, just not quite the same as the photos.

 

Also:

When adding the two wing pylon entries, if you use the next sequential station IDs (17 and 18), then the fuselage stations are fired first.

It seems the practice was to fire the pylon stations first, which makes sense as it would be a better sequence to reduce drag.

When I just added the SAHM entry to the existing inner pylon entries, I accidentally got the "pylon first" order I would prefer.

The problem is, if I disturb the default station IDs, the loadout ini has to be carefully updated (I was trying to get away with a minimum change AND get rid of the adapter).

But I see no other way to get it.

I intend to bump Sparrow stations 3 and 4 down to station IDs 17 and 18, bump 1 and 2 down to 12 and 13, and Stations 5 and 6 (the pylon AIM-7s in my data ini) to 10 and 11.

Really, the forward fuselage stations and aft fuselage stations should be separate groups to permit in-game selection of aft-only AIM-7s.

 

USAF F-4s should have the AIM-9s, AIM-7s, and regular inner pylons in the same group to limit them to only having one of the three as the USAF AIM-9 rails were not wide enough to safely carry both AIM-9s and bombs at the same time.

Based on the website, all USAF F-4Es and some export versions made after 1966 should have the pylon AIM-7 option deleted.

Since the deletion is supposed to be related to nuclear weapons employment, I am going to guess that the export versions in question might be F-4K, F-4M, F-4E (Israel), and F-4F.

The website shows photos of two different restored F-4M panels with the blanked out pylon Sparrows status indicators, so I am fairly sure the F-4M fell into post 1966 export versions.

The F-4EJ was bought as an interceptor and they aren't supposed to lob nuclear weapons, so would they have the pylon AIM-7 option?

It might make sense to remove the pylon AIM-7 option from the F-4C_67 and F-4D_67, though they were apparently only changed out as wear and tear required.

Edited April 15, 2013 by streakeagle

[+CrazyhorseB34 937]

Dude you would poop if you see what I did. I got 30 weapon stations on my F-4B

[+daddyairplanes 8,637]

Dude you would poop if you see what I did. I got 30 weapon stations on my F-4B

Thats a data ini i wanna see!

[Sheriff001 397]

I discovered the solution to my problem. I added the new stations only in the Weapon Stations section, I had to add each new station as a system.

[+ravenclaw_007 7,221]

I have been playing with the edits for the F-4B.

I have run into a minor problem: either the pylon is too short or the missile is too long (whether I use the stock AIM-7D or the one in Ravenclaw's F-4E release).

I am guessing it is the pylon.

 

not only the pylon , there is a general problem with the Aircraft model , i had to shorten the pylons a bit on the hard wing F-4´s because of collision problems with the leading edge actuator thats why the position of the AIM-7 is a bit to much to the rear on the RAAF F-4E´s and the F-4J / N i´m currently working on (i may not include the AIM-7 option for the F-4J / N)

 

The AIM-7 dimensions are correct i took them from original drawings

[Centurion-1 1,228]

Can't wait for your new Phantoms, both the IIAF/IRIAF F-4s and the navy ones.

[+streakeagle 864]

not only the pylon , there is a general problem with the Aircraft model , i had to shorten the pylons a bit on the hard wing F-4´s because of collision problems with the leading edge actuator thats why the position of the AIM-7 is a bit to much to the rear on the RAAF F-4E´s and the F-4J / N i´m currently working on (i may not include the AIM-7 option for the F-4J / N)

 

The AIM-7 dimensions are correct i took them from original drawings

 

One photo shows an F-4J with the AIM-7s on the wings, and its number marks it as a mid-production F-4J (not sure when the F-4B panel was dumped for the later AWG-10 style panel), so it is appears likely that even later F-4Js/Ss retained the wing pylon capability. If the F-J's kept it, then I assume the F-4N's kept it as well.

 

As or the F-4 model having problems, guess you need to build a new one to go with the new missile models :)

[Z09SS 21]

http://aviation.watergeek.eu/f4j-panel.html

 

What's interesting here is the sparrow indicator panel on the brow. It shows the wing stations (six total). So the capability made it all the way to the F-4S without being completely deleted for other things.

[+streakeagle 864]

http://aviation.wate.../f4j-panel.html

 

What's interesting here is the sparrow indicator panel on the brow. It shows the wing stations (six total). So the capability made it all the way to the F-4S without being completely deleted for other things.

 

I have looked at that page a million times and never noticed that panel.

That is where the lights went to when the old missile status panel was replaced!

That seals the deal that the Navy F-4s had the wing pylon option from start to finish.

Only a select group of USAF and export F-4s lost the capability.

[Sheriff001 397]

Incidentally, the status panel on the stock F-4M doesn't show the wingtip missiles, only the fuselage missiles.

[+streakeagle 864]

I don't suppose TK will ever get around to doing a proper late F-4J / F-4S ?

As it stands, the F-4N DLC could use a few revisions.

[+CrazyhorseB34 937]

How about a proper early J with no RWR or ECM gear?

[+ravenclaw_007 7,221]

I have looked at that page a million times and never noticed that panel.

That is where the lights went to when the old missile status panel was replaced!

That seals the deal that the Navy F-4s had the wing pylon option from start to finish.

Only a select group of USAF and export F-4s lost the capability.

 

it is getting even better than this

i got info from KillerBee (he worked on F-4´s) that the F-4´s are suppose to be able to carry 8 AIM-7 what would mean that the outer wingstation are wired as well for the AIM-7 but it never was used by the Navy or the USAF , the wing-pylon AIM-7 wiring was used for the AGM-45 and AGM-88

 

that would explain why the RAAF F-4E could carry AIM-7 on the wing pylon by just changing the standard pylon to the Navy one , and F-4´s could carry the AGM-45 and AGM-88 on the inner and the outer wingstations

 

so basicaly non of the F-4´s lost there capability to launch AIM-7 from wing pylons it just was never used

Edited April 16, 2013 by ravenclaw_007

[+ravenclaw_007 7,221]

i have to correct me , the F-4 FG.1 (and i assume as well the FG.2) are not able to carry AIM-7 on pylons , i just got the weapons manual for the FG.1 and there is only the 4 fuselage bays for AIM-7 / Skyflash

 

and in all F-4C/D/E/F/G weapons delivery manuals are only the 4 fuselage bays for AIM-7 , what is logical because the USAF does not use the Navy pylon and therfor this aircraft are not able to launch any AIM-7 , the only ever exception was the RAAF

[Sheriff001 397]

The RAAF leased Phantoms for just over two years, and they were operated by 82 Wing, which is our strike wing. They've never had an air defence role. The AIM-7 was not used by the RAAF when it used the F-4 (1970-1973). The AIM-7 became operational with the RAAF in 1985 on the F/A-18 Hornet. The pics of RAAF F-4E Phantoms carrying AIM-7s are from a trial done by the RAAF's Aircraft Research and Development Unit for the USAF. The aim of the trial was to cold soak the Sparrows at very high altitudes. The trials were based at RAAF Darwin.

Caption: A rare photo of an RAAF F-4E with the AIM-7 Sparrow and AIM-9 Sidewinder.The RAAF carried out a trial for the USAF at Darwin to cold soak the

missiles at very cold temperatures at high altitude. ARDU assisted with the telementry tasks.Climbing the crew ladder of 69-7211 "11" is

is FLTLT Bren Roberts (P) and tweaking the inertial navigation system is FLTLT Noel Ryan (AEO.(Photo:Noel Ryan)

 

Caption: RAAF F-4E 69-7211 crew FLTLT Roberts and FLTLT Ryan with AIM-7 Sparrow missile.(Photo:Noel Ryan)

 

The normal weapon load for RAAF Phantoms was Mark 82 bombs. In training, 25 lb practice bombs were used from SUU-20 dispensers.

 

http://www.angelfire.com/extreme/raafphantoms/RAAFPHLYERS1.htm

 

One addition: the aircraft in question was returned to the USAF in 1973, converted to F-4G, participated in Operation Southern Watch. After a stint in the Boneyard, 69-7211 was converted to QF-4G and destroyed in 2002.