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bigpig98

missile avoidance

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could someone help me with some tips for avoiding air-to-air missiles? what i have most trouble on are avoiding heat seeking missiles because i don't know where it is, and avoiding Sparrow at high altitude. i usually fly planes with no flares or chaff. Thanks.

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There is no way u can evade anything without countermeasures. For I have jammers and still nothing. But the best way sometimes is flying low to the ground.

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Heat Seekers, IRMs are affected by two things,  flares and heat blur (ground clutter, sun)  in game that means, IRMs with low jam resistance may fail at low altitude and can lock on the sun itself.  Early IRMs (low track rate and turn G) can be outmaneuvered, if you react quickly. Late IRMs can only be stopped by flares (a lot of).  BTW each plane has a IR signature value like RCS but it is not set in any data ini,  maybe in stealth only.

 

SAHM missiles are more easier to get rid of, at least they are prone to more failures.  First, the search radar range is reduced by noise jamming. Second, the radar lock range is reduced by deceptive jamming.  The guidance radar, IF not CW (countinous wave, or monopulse)  RadarGuidanceCW=FALSE then also affected by deceptive jamming.  If it is CW, then only CanJamCW jammers can defend against such guidances.

Third, the target has to be in the radar cone of the launching plane. Lock breaks, missile goes ballistic.

Fourth, such missiles are also affected by ground clutter, low jamresistance  values mean very poor performance at low range.

Fifth, radar homing missiles are far less maneuverable than the IRMs, so if you spot them, or just start maneuvering, you have good chance to avoid them.

 

Too bad we have no usable eastern RWR set in cockpits, but I trust the cockpit GURUs will invent something )))

 

Most planes are being reworked on the eastern side too, so a lot more planes will have CM ejectors and jammers  which they had them historically. 

 

Also there is a serious bug in the latest SF2 version that AI planes cannot use external CM pods, a serious cutback to early MIGs. That means a Jul 2013 level patch will be released to provide a workaround (giving planes CM by default, internally)

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Basically a lot has already been said.

Flying red, with no C.M and early RWR, I tend to fly low if I know I will face F4 or anything with a SAHM. Especially since the missiles have been buffed up. Still, they can be dealt with with manoeuvering. Late SAHM are very dangerous... Flying a MiG-21 in the 1980's, you'll fly low and attempt to engage with guns and IIRM.
 

And modern missiles are deadly. You don't have any RWR ping because of game limitations and they are very accurate. Tree-top level it is.

 

IRM are not a threat until the late 60's and AIM-9F/G. These can be foiled with manoeuvering and chaff. AIM-9L and followings, as Archers are killers. You can't do much but pray and manoeuver. 
Late game missiles are utterly deadly, but remember the game shines until late 70's-early 80's. It wasn't really modelled to portray Aamram and suchs. 

 

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Modern missiles have an engagement zone that results in 100%(nominal) PK. Avoid this zone.

 

If pushing it, assume a "kamikaze" mindset.

Edited by Do335

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As for myself, i use two option :

 

If flying low : Cut throttle, break by doing a hard turn, then full throttle after having turn of 90 degrees. I then turn on the opposite direction with throttle to about 50%.

                     So, in a way i'm doing a split s manoeuver that have two effect : 1) Evade a missile (i have about 75% of success by doing so), 2) enemy will overshoot me by going too fast and the chaser will become chased :)

 

If flying high : cut throttle, turn upside down and do a half loop. Then get the hell out of there.

 

 

If you do some hard manoeuvers, there is chances that the missiles won't be able to keep it's track... Unless it's an AIM-54 that is coming your way... I never evaded them :) But sparrows are a real threat, but not 100% hit on me :)

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Phoenix homes on jam, that makes is hard to evade. Sparrows are not that good,  they particularly maneuver badly.  But keep in mind that SAHM are heavily dependent on guidance radar specs. It is not the same if an F-4 or an F-15 fires that missile.

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Over the past year .I've set up a lot of DACM engagements with me flying the outclassed bogey. I  especially like going against F-14 /15/18 in a late model Mig-21 , F-5 B/C , A-4. Some are almost impossible. But when I do survive, it's due to all of the tactics and maneuvers mentioned above.

Load up an F-5B with decoys and a jammer and you can bag just about anyone. A-4M loaded with decoys and Limas is a  little Death Star . No jammers or decoys .....Good Luck!!

 

Keep your speed up otherwise after one or two missile evasion breaks you will be out of energy and an easy target for anyone shooting anything.

 

In one  engagement  ( Two F-8 against many Migs )I tried desperate move that was developed by  "Hoser" Satrapa. I turned off engine . Atoll went blind, two Migs overshot , after dropping about 3 K feet I relit the engine , gained speed and was back in the fray.

 

I noticed that in  most engagements the closure rate  ( Your velocity plus missile's velocity) is about one mile per second. IF and only IF you have good idea of range at that point, start counting and make a hard break at a count of two seconds before you think missile will hit. Works more often than not BUT you have to be good at determining who is firing and from what range. Obviously a lot easier if you see missile trail but that's usually too late.

 

I try to avoid detection. Related to that use terrain to mask against radars . I often use an historical tactic that's really cool to try out. Split your RED  flight of four or your two or three flight "squadron" by telling the4 ship  flight or Flight 2 or 3 to "Engage Air" . Then you and your remaining flight turn radars off.( In early Migs they are worthless anyway and just give your position away. ) Break way out to the side and stay low as possible. You and your low, fast and quiet  flight Come back in from abeam or behind the bandits who are busy engaging the others. Works almost every time.

Edited by Sheriff
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" . Then you and your remaining flight turn radars off.( In early Migs they are worthless anyway and just give your position away. ) Break way out to the side and stay low as possible. You and your low, fast and quiet  flight Come back in from abeam or behind the bandits who are busy engaging the others. Works almost every time.

Does the A.I really uses RWR as a detection device? 

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Does the A.I really uses RWR as a detection device? 

 

I did ask that myself... after some tests, my answer is yes. IF their RWR is capable to spot your radar. If you lock onto an AI plane, most of the time it will be noticed and the AI start evading.  The same way your wingmen report you spike when they get caught by radar.

 

AND they turn on jamming too. A moment ago a flight of B-52s were on the radar, but then they disappear, and can only be spotted again minutes later, from a closer range.

 

 

The greatest problem is that wingmen can be ordered to switch radar, but they don't report it's status.  Are their radars On or OFF by default?? and how to query if they use it or not??

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Another consideration for you is to turn 90 degrees angle off to the missile's flight path to lower the closure velocity (Vc).  In games, it largely depends on how the missile's data is programmed, but in reality, any air to air missile can't hit its target when fired from maximum range if the target isn't closing with the missile.  For example, the AIM-7F could hit a closing target fired from somewhere in excess of 20NM.  If the target turned 90-degrees to the launch platform, that range was reduced to about 8NM.  If the target were running, it was less than that.  

 

As an in-game example, we boosted the AIM-54's maximum launch range in the F-14 Super Pack to 115NM (132mi/212km) from 75NM for the originals (with permission by Ravenclaw, his originals are also still in the pack) to match the longest range successful shot of an AIM-54 off of an F-14.  In that test, although the launch distance was 115NM, the missile only traveled about 72NM because of Vc; the target had traveled 43NM towards the missile by intercept time.  To allow for a longer range shot without affecting the missile's "legs", we modified only the "MaxLaunchRange" line in the data.ini and nothing else.  During testing, it was found the missile could hit a target if fired from maximum range if the target was closing, and the player was flying very quickly towards the target at launch (~1.4-1.6M).  It was also found that if the target turned perpendicular to the launch platform, the effective range of the missile was cut down to about 60NM.  For a target travelling slightly away from the player, it's down in the 50's, while a target in a full "run" drops the range even more.

 

How this translates to you: if you're flying against an F-14 (I usually fly BLUFOR, but I also like to practice against IRIAF F-14's) and the AI launches an AIM-54 at you from around Rmax, you can turn your aircraft to around 90 degrees to the F-14's (and AIM-54's) nose, and the missile will either run out of smack trying to reach you, or take longer than 5 minutes of flight time and run out of power (reflected in the "Duration" line in the data.ini).  Regardless of which, if your AI opponent launches two or four missiles, you can shoot him dry, and ideally, respond with your own long- or medium-range missiles after you're clear.

 

I haven't tested out too many missiles for the express purpose of figuring out their envelopes, but I do know the AIM-7F will still hit a target at 90 degrees angle off at more than 8NM, I just don't know what the limit is.  Regardless, angle-off requires the missile to travel further to hit you (low or no Vc), which means it will decelerate more and be more liable to miss if you maneuver.

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Another consideration for you is to turn 90 degrees angle off to the missile's flight path to lower the closure velocity (Vc).  In games, it largely depends on how the missile's data is programmed, but in reality, any air to air missile can't hit its target when fired from maximum range if the target isn't closing with the missile.  For example, the AIM-7F could hit a closing target fired from somewhere in excess of 20NM.  If the target turned 90-degrees to the launch platform, that range was reduced to about 8NM.  If the target were running, it was less than that. 

 

Exactly this is why it is very important to revise all missile ballistics, because most of them were set up with no  drag values, and unreal booster/sustainer values  as well as way too much missile duration.  I tried to reproduce that in the red weapons pack, however very little data is available.   Launch range, maximum range, and effective range is veeery different.

 

Also, correctly configured missiles tend to slow down considerably (if sane drag values have been added) on their outer leg of their trajectory.

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I'll go with Caesar as most of my -120D shots even against a Flogger i end up missing most of the time at max range, as usually he's flying perpendicular so I waste a good missile.  Of course if he "sniffs" me then a closing shot is nearly a 100% guarantee given AI logic during the shot.

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