La-11 FM

[Do335 382]

Any FM guru wanna take a shot at it? It currently is... disastrous without exaggerating. Almost rage-replaced the campaign units with La-15 fantail..

 

Seeing that basic weight/surface area/laminar wing is similar, I'm currently doing a copy-paste using TW P-51's aero and updating the hitbox with Mue's LODviewer, so it can at least takeoff, fight and land properly, while not breaking game balance.

 

However not an FM guru by any means so historical accuracy is out. It would be appreciated if it gets some expert love. Baffmeister? Fubar?...

 

 

 

Edit for new readers: Baffmeister's La-9/11 FM thread. The Datas are in attachments. This plane is usable now.

http://combatace.com/topic/72187-la-9-fm/

http://combatace.com/topic/72518-la-11-fm/

Edited March 1, 2015 by Do335

[Wrench 9,848]

where do you think I got the FM for the KAW version I did (don't know if it was ever released, or even where it went right now!!)

[Do335 382]

Wrench,

 

Great, more hidden goodies:P

 

Anyway, reckon it's a forgotten plane in a forgotten theater, so... oh well.

 

 

 

Attached tweaked La-11 FM w/ mustang aero, functional since it's stock TW, in hope of the experts someday taking a look at this plane.

 

 

oh the damage modeling and hitboxes are updated. LODviewer rocks.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Do335

[Wrench 9,848]

I also have new dds damage textures

 

it's a pity we don't have the max files to fix the shadow tractor beams

[+Stary 2,427]

Do335

 

the FM has been updated by Beffmaister and it makes it quite a good plane in KAW now, gone are the tragic stalls/post stalls behaviours in most of cases and it's really worth checking

 

I'll try merging your hitboxes with that FM

[Do335 382]

hey good news Stary thanks. Not so good that just wasted my Sunday on this...ehhhy.

 

But yes, nice one Baffmeister, thank you.

[+baffmeister 1,205]

Cripes, I don't even remember doing an La-11 FM, although it's on "the list". Were can I get the FM I don't remember doing?

 

 

Found it!  Posted some La-9 and La-11 FMs back in 2012. I'm going to review them and check Do335's edits as well. I was planning to update the North Korean prop plane FM's at some point. Probably just minor updates for the Yak-9P and IL-10. La-9/11 will get a major update.

 

Regarding the Lod viewer, is it good for checking Min/Max extents, collision points etc? Many of the old models seem to use data from other aircraft so I review all that data now using Fastcargos ruler tool. It can be a very time consuming process so anything that makes the task easier would be very much appreciated.

Edited March 1, 2015 by baffmeister

[Wrench 9,848]

if it could do that, THAT would be a major assit!!!

 

baff, if you're going to do those, I can send over the dds damage textures, for a 'remod' pack

[+Stary 2,427]

Cripes, I don't even remember doing an La-11 FM, although it's on "the list". Were can I get the FM I don't remember doing?

Found it! Posted some La-9 and La-11 FMs back in 2012.

I might act erratic but not that erratic not to know whose mods I put into my fresh KAW install!

It really is great news you plan to work on those KAW planes more as I myself plan to release some neat KAW related mods in the coming days or weeks at best

 

Edit: I bet adding sort of bounding boxes/min max extensions output in LViewer wouldn't be thay hard for Mue

Edited March 1, 2015 by Stary

[Do335 382]

Cripes, I don't even remember doing an La-11 FM, although it's on "the list". Were can I get the FM I don't remember doing?

 

 

Found it!  Posted some La-9 and La-11 FMs back in 2012. I'm going to review them and check Do335's edits as well. I was planning to update the North Korean prop plane FM's at some point. Probably just minor updates for the Yak-9P and IL-10. La-9/11 will get a major update.

 

Regarding the Lod viewer, is it good for checking Min/Max extents, collision points etc? Many of the old models seem to use data from other aircraft so I review all that data now using Fastcargos ruler tool. It can be a very time consuming process so anything that makes the task easier would be very much appreciated.

 

Appreciate it Baffmeister.

 

As for LODviewer it's still tedious and tricky as one can't draw boxes around components, so there's no way to know if a defined box is too small or too big. Like if 4 37mm hits can't shoot it down the box is obviously too big.... But yea still much much better than not having access to the LOD coordinates at all I reckon.

 

Just checked out FastCargo's ruler... wow I think it is a bit sadistic. Why oh why does tk lock the LOD. (I know but still..)

 

 

 

1st post updated with Baffmeister's La-9/11 thread.

[Wilches 1,172]

Another LA-9/11 fix here

 

http://combatace.com/files/file/14217-lavochkin-static-prop-fix/

[+baffmeister 1,205]

Thanks for the assorted information. I'm going to check out Mues' Lod Viewer to see what it can do. Sounds like it might be a good replacement for the hex editor thingy I've been using to look at out files. Fastcargos' ruler tool has been a big help to me and the results regarding damage modeling have been quite good, I think, but very time consuming.

 

Wrench, probably better if you or someone else puts together an update package. Too many things I don't understand regarding skins, damage textures etc. Once I put together an La-9/11 FM I'm happy with it will be posted and free to use by whoever.  There is an excellent Stary pit available [probably everyone knows that!]  but not sure if it's included in any current packages.

 

Thanks for the link, Wilches, will check it out.

 

Looking forward to your KAW mods Stary!

[Wrench 9,848]

stary has a pit for it???!!!!

[+Stary 2,427]

Ekhm, here:

 

http://combatace.com/topic/79277-lavochkin-la-9-la-11-cockpit/

[+mue 715]

Edit: I bet adding sort of bounding boxes/min max extensions output in LViewer wouldn't be thay hard for Mue

 

What info are you interested in exactly? The bounding boxes (xmin,ymin,zmin) / (xmax,ymax,zmax) of each single node or of a group of nodes? Do you need some visualizations?

[+Stary 2,427]

yes exactly that!

 

say we have three companents making a wing: wing_inner, wing_middle and wing_outer, what DM models gurus would want is the min/max boundaries of the hit boxes. yes boxes as it's the only one format the engine understands so more complex shapes are a no-no. Plus yeah some bounding-box type visualization/brackets that would show the size of the box in Lod Viewer windows could help the guys alot! I am by no way in the SF2 DM department but do know how would be helpful

[+logan4 847]

If you look at the min-max extent script that was made for 3ds max. They think about similar item with the added visualization.

 

http://combatace.com/files/file/10253-min-max-extents/

[Wrench 9,848]

which, unfortunately can ONLY be seen in MAX, if one has the MAX file.  Far too many of our birds lack accurate extents and correct hit boxes.

 

having something of that ability in Mue's Tool ™ would be godsend for the ini gurus.

[+baffmeister 1,205]

New aerodynamic tester for the La-11 attached. I still have a lot of work to do checking min/max extents/damage modeling and need some information regarding fuel tanks that I haven't found online so maybe someone can help with that. Regarding the FM, it gets a new CDL table and engine table that is based on, I think, reasonably good data. The Shvetsov ASH-82 engine appears to have been designed for medium altitude so the power drops off quite quickly above 20,000ft. I'm getting about 430mph TAS at 20-21000ft which is the max speed according to internet info. At sea level it does about 380mph which seems reasonable to me although I have seen some internet info that ranges from 350mph to 430mph at sea level. The 430 at sea level seems very unlikely.  The La-11 is quite light compared to a Seafury or Mustang but it has considerably less wing area so the wing loading, assuming equal amounts of fuel, is about the same as a Mustang. You will want to limit fuel when able and keep the speed up during dogfights. The FM now has some working shock animations but I haven't found a way to get the tail wheel to castor. I have also included Wilches' prop fix as well as using the previous slow prop tga as a medium prop tga, which adds a bit of animation when starting or shutting down. After looking through the out file, it does seem that the model was built without a propeller. Wilches fix is probably the best bet at this point. Just add the three prop TGA's to each skin folder. You may want to consider changing the ConstantSpeed=TRUE statement to FALSE which will show the medium prop tga when taxiing or idleing. I have never noticed any performance differences between ConstantSpeed=TRUE or FALSE but don't want to risk potential "patch mayhem" if ThirdWire ever makes some changes to the prop behavior. The next update will be on my KAW FM Update thread and will probably include the Yak-9P and IL-10. Here's the new La-11 FM:     LA-11fmKAW0.95.zip

 

A couple of questions:

 

Does anyone know the distribution of the fuel tanks for the La-9 and La-11? From online sources the internal fuel capacity for the La-9 is 825 litres and for the La-11 1100 litres. I think the La-9 had a fuselage tank and two wing tanks in the inner wing sections. For the La-11, I think it had the same fuselage and inner wing tanks as well as two wing tanks in the outer wing sections. I have also seen some photos and diagrams of the La-11 equipped with "No Jettison" wing tip tanks but not sure I want to get involved with that.

 

Did the Shvetsov ASH-82 have a WEP rating? The info on Wikipedia shows 1850hp at 2500rpm for take off. The other horsepower at altitude ratings are all at 2400rpm but was wondering if 2500rpm could be used at altitude, to generate a bit more horsepower. 

[Do335 382]

Thank you baffmeister.

 

Did some search on the net on fuel tank layout but nothing as well.

 

About ash-82fnu only this page on japanese (google translate)

 

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2F2chland.net%2Farmy%2F1215216867.html

 

 

ASh-82 1700 hp at lift-off horsepower of that ASh-82FNU 1850 horsepower, a very short time in the takeoff limited (usually 1 minute) use only mode.
Rated horsepower in the mode that can be used in flight (emergency) is
ASH-82
SL: 1450Ps 2050M: 1540Ps 3600: 1280Ps 5400 m: 1330Ps
ASH-82FNU
SL: 1550Ps 1650 m: 1650Ps 3200 m: 1380Ps 4650M: 1450Ps

 

 

so if the info is reliable 1850hp can last 1 minute.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Do335

[Do335 382]

baffmeister see if you wanna use this damage modeling. Trying to adhere to TW standard segregating it into nose-fuse-tail 3 sections. The 3d model doesn't have a tail node so one is separated from the fuselage node, other wise the fuselage component is so large that it becomes very resistant to gun fire. Also the fuselage hitbox is raised to cover the pilot as per TK's data, so hits on canopy area can kill the pilot. The nose node is too small and I lengthened it a bit to cover the entire engine section.

As for the fuel tanks they're probably placeholders since you'll rework the fuel stuff.

 

[Fuselage]
ModelNodeName=Fuselage
DamageRating=DESTROYED
...
MinExtentPosition=-0.60, 1.21, 0.95
MaxExtentPosition= 0.60,-3.19,-0.73
 
[Nose]
ParentComponentName=Fuselage
ModelNodeName=Nose
DamageRating=Destroyed
DetachWhenDestroyed=TRUE
...
MinExtentPosition= 0.7, 2.73, 0.63
MaxExtentPosition=-0.7, 1.21,-0.78
 
[LeftWing]
ParentComponentName=Fuselage
ModelNodeName=LeftWing
DetachWhenDestroyed=TRUE
DamageRating=DESTROYED
...
MinExtentPosition=-0.60, 0.70,-0.56
MaxExtentPosition=-3.55,-1.27,-0.13
 
[RightWing]
ParentComponentName=Fuselage
ModelNodeName=RightWing
DetachWhenDestroyed=TRUE
DamageRating=DESTROYED
...
MinExtentPosition= 0.60, 0.70,-0.56
MaxExtentPosition= 3.55,-1.27,-0.13
 
[LeftOuterWing]
ParentComponentName=LeftWing
ModelNodeName=LeftWingOuter
DetachWhenDestroyed=TRUE
DamageRating=DESTROYED
...
MinExtentPosition=-3.55, 0.48, 0.02
MaxExtentPosition=-5.60,-1.02,-0.24
 
[RightOuterWing]
ParentComponentName=RightWing
ModelNodeName=RightWingOuter
DetachWhenDestroyed=TRUE
DamageRating=DESTROYED
...
MinExtentPosition= 3.55, 0.48, 0.02
MaxExtentPosition= 5.60,-1.02,-0.24
 
[Tail]
ParentComponentName=Fuselage
ModelNodeName=
DetachWhenDestroyed=TRUE
DamageRating=DESTROYED
HasAeroCoefficients=False
MinExtentPosition=-0.33,-3.19, 0.67
MaxExtentPosition= 0.33,-5.74,-0.38
...
SystemName[001]=TailGear
 
[VertTail]
ParentComponentName=Tail
ModelNodeName=Tail
DetachWhenDestroyed=TRUE
DamageRating=DESTROYED
...
MinExtentPosition=-0.08,-4.85,-0.04
MaxExtentPosition= 0.08,-6.35, 1.98
 
[LeftStab]
ParentComponentName=Tail
ModelNodeName=LeftStab
DetachWhenDestroyed=TRUE
DamageRating=DISABLED
...
MinExtentPosition=-0.16,-4.80, 0.47
MaxExtentPosition=-2.27,-5.96, 0.37
 
[RightStab]
ParentComponentName=Tail
ModelNodeName=RightStab
DetachWhenDestroyed=TRUE
DamageRating=DISABLED
...
MinExtentPosition=0.16,-4.80, 0.47
MaxExtentPosition=2.27,-5.96, 0.37

...
 
[Pilot]
Position=0.0,-1.26,0.82
MinExtentPosition=-0.25,-0.6,-0.2
MaxExtentPosition= 0.25,-1.6, 1.0
 
...
 
[Engine]
MinExtentPosition=-0.55, 2.70, 0.56
MaxExtentPosition= 0.55, 1.22,-0.70
 
...
 
[FuselageFuelTank]
MaxFuelAmount=400
MinExtentPosition=-0.50, 1.10, 0.16
MaxExtentPosition= 0.50,-0.12,-0.35
 
[LeftWingFuelTank]
MaxFuelAmount=200
MinExtentPosition=-0.85, 0.17,-0.27
MaxExtentPosition=-1.72,-0.83,-0.51
 
[RightWingFuelTank]
MaxFuelAmount=200
MinExtentPosition= 0.85, 0.17,-0.27
MaxExtentPosition= 1.72,-0.83,-0.51

Edited March 9, 2015 by Do335

[Gatling20 753]

Baffmeister:

I found a reference on the web (aviastar.org) which suggests that the La-9 had 825 litres in a fuselage tank, and the La-11 had wingtip tanks ("It had a wing fundamentally similar to that of the La-9 and retained the ASh-82FN engine, but provision was made to attach auxiliary fuel tanks at the wingtips"). So my guess is 825 litres in a fuselage tank just behind the engine, and a 137.5 litre tank somewhere in each wing.

 

To convert to kg for the Data.INI, does anyone know the specific gravity of Soviet fuel (avgas, not jet fuel) of the time?

[+baffmeister 1,205]

Thanks for the info. Will cross check the PS power rating from the Japanese site to see how it matches up with the HP ratings I got from Wikipedia. The one minute take off power rating could be modeled like a low altitude WEP rating but will wait for now to see if anyone finds more information. Many Soviet aircraft from WW2 had power ratings that were unrestricted as long as temperatures and pressures were OK. I think the La-7 may have been an exception with a 10 minute WEP rating. I did skip doing the Min/Max entries for now but will probably use your data for the next update. [ Will check them out with Mues' 0.4  viewer, just to see how it works. Looking forward to that!]  Regarding the fuel tanks, I have seen some La-11 three view drawings that show two fuel caps on each wing but those drawings aren't always accurate. I will leave the tanks alone for now, maybe someone can find more info. [lots of other things I can work on.] Not sure about Soviet fuel weights. I just use the 100LL avgas fuel weight for piston planes and the JetA weight for jets. Probably not real precise. I think some of the older jets actually used avgas for fuel, which would be a significant difference.

[+baffmeister 1,205]

Quote

ASh-82 1700 hp at lift-off horsepower of that ASh-82FNU 1850 horsepower, a very short time in the takeoff limited (usually 1 minute) use only mode.
Rated horsepower in the mode that can be used in flight (emergency) is
ASH-82
SL: 1450Ps 2050M: 1540Ps 3600: 1280Ps 5400 m: 1330Ps
ASH-82FNU
SL: 1550Ps 1650 m: 1650Ps 3200 m: 1380Ps 4650M: 1450Ps

 

Interesting. The info listed for the ASH-82FNU looks more rational for an engine with a two speed supercharger when compared to what I got from Wikipedia. The only matching point between the sources is the 1450PS / 1430HP at 4650 meters. I'm going to build an engine table using this new data and a take off / WEP one minute limit and see how it does.

[+baffmeister 1,205]

Max speed at sea level is down to 360MPH with the new engine table. If I use the one minute wep power once it hits 360mph I can get it up to 380MPH. If anyone finds any reliable test data for La-9 / 11 max speeds that would be appreciated.

 

A bit off topic but after looking into it the weight for JP-4 is probably the one to use for military jets, especially the old ones I work with. The weight of JP-4 is about 4-5% lighter than JetA and was more common for military use. My sources indicate 1.77 lbs/liter for JP-4 and 1.85 lbs/liter for JetA. Both at 15deg C.