Sidewinder wiring compatibility 1960s

[macelena]

Within the game, the weapons each pylon-rail can carry are determined by service/nationality. However i was wondering about what it took to use different models of AIM-9s back in the day, seeing how you could find, say, US Navy style Sidewinders in Israeli Phantoms and Mirages, and considering some of the different variants and improvements overtime in both the aircraft avionics and the missiles themselves, it could warrant different wiring. I've been googling about it but i haven't found any specific answer, and everything i read tells me it could be either way. 

[ragnarokryan]

The USMC sent technicians to Taiwan in the 1950's. While there, the Marines installed sidewinder rails and missiles on ROC F-86's, which they used against PLAAF MiGs. Sidewinders were sold extensively to our allies (you mentioned the Israelis, IIRC they didn't get sidewinders until the late 1960's. They also used captured Soviet missiles, based on the sidewinder, and home-made Shafrir's) and I believe sidewinders could be wired up to any airplane.

How was that done? It's beyond me, sorry. I just know that it could be done. Perhaps someone else will have a better answer for you.

[tiopilotos]

I don't know technical details but IR missile interchangeability could take place and there are examples... Hellenic and Spanish Mirage F1s could carry AIM-9 instead of Magic and Iraqi MiG-21s were modified to carry Magics. 

[+ravenclaw_007]

the problem was not so much the wiring the missiles are conneced with a quick releas connector to the launchrail , the launchrail in the beginnig was the AERO-3B and was used for the AIM-9B only all other AIM-9 including the AIM-9B used from ca.1966 onward the LAU-7A

the wiring on the aircraft side was not so much a big deal some aircraft like the F-86 did get to a later point the AIM-9 capability  other aircrafts like F-104G and F-4B or F-1 had from the beginning the capability

 

some AIM-9 like the AIM-9C was only used on the F-8 others like the AIM-9D/G/H are only used by the U.S. Navy ( some are exported ) the AIM-9E/J/L/M/N/P are used mainly by the USAF and the NATO partners and Israel , but theoreticaly can a USAF jet launch the Navy AIM-9 and vice versa

 

[macelena]

1 hour ago, ravenclaw_007 said:

the problem was not so much the wiring the missiles are conneced with a quick releas connector to the launchrail , the launchrail in the beginnig was the AERO-3B and was used for the AIM-9B only all other AIM-9 including the AIM-9B used from ca.1966 onward the LAU-7A

the wiring on the aircraft side was not so much a big deal some aircraft like the F-86 did get to a later point the AIM-9 capability  other aircrafts like F-104G and F-4B or F-1 had from the beginning the capability

some AIM-9 like the AIM-9C was only used on the F-8 others like the AIM-9D/G/H are only used by the U.S. Navy ( some are exported ) the AIM-9E/J/L/M/N/P are used mainly by the USAF and the NATO partners and Israel , but theoreticaly can a USAF jet launch the Navy AIM-9 and vice versa

 

Thanks a lot, that was more or less what i had in mind. Taking Navy models for example, D should have been normal, but then G added SEAM, so you might need another kind of signal  between the missile and the avionics, and with  H you get transistors, which are better but might need to adapt impedance or something. Looks like they overbuilt the bus from the get go.

[KJakker]

Because the AA-2 ATOLL is a reverse engineered copy of the AIM-9B Sidewinder I believe that any aircraft that could carry one could carry the other. As I recall the Finish Air Force carried Sidewinders on their MiG-21's without the need for any modifications.

[+streakeagle]

Electrical connections are not the only concern. You need seeker cooling on more advanced variants and the coolant is carried/plumbed through the pylon. This alone made Naval AIM-9 variants more difficult to adapt to other aircraft. But as the Israelis used Naval AIM-9s on their USAF F-4Es, clearly the modification isn't that difficult.

[RustyKurnass]

3 hours ago, streakeagle said:

Electrical connections are not the only concern. You need seeker cooling on more advanced variants and the coolant is carried/plumbed through the pylon. This alone made Naval AIM-9 variants more difficult to adapt to other aircraft. But as the Israelis used Naval AIM-9s on their USAF F-4Es, clearly the modification isn't that difficult.

That's highly true!

For example the AIM-9L/M was developed conjutly by USAF and USN, but are different in the cooling liquid for the seeker, Argon for the USAF and nitrogen ( as more simple to produce on aircraft carrier) for the Navy,with subsequent logistical issue: for example when the Navy shore based a det of VF-154 F-14A for FAC duty during OIF at Al Udeid ( if remember well) this cause the necessity of send the equipment for reload the nitrogen bottles of the Winder,helped from the Aussie F-18 det sharing the air base.

And about the interoperability of Aim-9B/AA-2, when the IDF/AF seized Egiptyan air bases in the Sinai after the SDW, found some Atoll left and used'em in combat on the Shahaks

Beginning with the Aim-9D, all the Navy Aim-9s (D/G/H/L/M) used the nitrogen cooling bottles fitted on the missiles launcher rails,so the modification to carry one version instead of another is tied principally to the launcher rails ( I suppose at least)

[Mike Dora]

In practice the Sidewinder system is pretty self-contained, with the coolant in a long conical, almost needle-shaped bottle inside the launcher. Compare and contrast with Britain’s heavy IR missiles, Firestreak and Red Top, which needed considerable internal electronics packs in the carrier ac.

Indeed with some relatively minor wiring mods, can hang Sidewinder on just about anything::.

RAF Nimrod MR2 - they got their Sidewinder fix in a just a couple of weeks during the Falklands War

Edited January 29, 2021 by Mike Dora

[+Gepard]

12 hours ago, KJakker said:

Because the AA-2 ATOLL is a reverse engineered copy of the AIM-9B Sidewinder I believe that any aircraft that could carry one could carry the other. As I recall the Finish Air Force carried Sidewinders on their MiG-21's without the need for any modifications.

True. The soviet designer who later developed the AA-8 Aphid (R-60) said once: The AIM-9B Sidewinder was our missile university. The soviets learned all how to make a IR missile.

In the 1970th an east german MiG-21 lost a R-3S (Atoll) over the Baltic Sea. West german frogmen found the missile and west german weapon engineers tested it. Afterwards they said: "The Atoll is a very good copy of the AIM-9B Sidewinder". They put it on a rail of a F-104G and the missile worked very well.