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Guest capun

Sopwith Dolphin

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Capun... Do you think you could make a 2 gunned version... the top gun pair was often left home since it caused extra drag...

 

Would be nice to see a two gunned version that has sligthly lower upper wing drag..

 

Tex

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Would be nice to see a two gunned version that has sligthly lower upper wing drag..

Tex

 

OR, someway to change the armament at loadout? Hmmm, unlikely I know, but that would be ideal.

 

Also, I think the Lewis' were mounted at a 45 degree angle... BUT I could be wrong.

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Guest Charles

Drag is modelled in SF/FE for each aircraft component, and it would be easy to reduce the drag on the upper wing centre sections a bit to simulate removing the Lewis guns, if that is wanted. For myself, I rather like a 4-gun machine for ballon-busting and Gotha-interception. SF/FE does not allow changes in the MGs or cannon fitted to the aircraft at the loadout screen.

 

I checked a whole lot of pictures of the Dolphin, and it is true that most show either no Lewis guns (presumably removed in the field) or the guns at about 45 degrees. I have taken this to be pictures of the Lewis guns being reloaded. You see plenty of pictures of SE.5as with the Lewis gun slid back on its rail for reloading, but it was not usually used that way, but rather in the fixed forward position. One ace (was it Albert Ball?) was said to use his on the angle, but this was unusual, and took considerable flying and shooting skill. For most SE.5a pilots, the fixed forward position was the most useable.

 

Whether the Dolphin rails prevented the Lewis guns from being fired directly forward I cannot definitively say, but I think most pilots would use the Lewis guns in the fixed forward position if they could. I know that I prefer this - I can never hit anything smaller or more manoeuvrable than about a Lancaster or B-17 with oblique-firing weapons.

Edited by Charles

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just some out of the box thinking... can guns be added on pylons like bombs?? If Im not totally wrong the early F4s in the SFP1 game have gunpod only... perhaps making a gunpod of the upper gun would be possible and cool???

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Having a different version sans lewis guns would be cool...and optional armanent would add immensely, taking FE to a different dimension. Another good lateral idea from Tex... :good:

 

But I have to say if its one version, this is the best, the right one. The Dolphin was unique in having 4 guns for a fighter in WWI, and having this in FE is fantastic. It also looks great with these extra guns, good for Gothas & other two seaters, ground attack etc, and it is harder to manage all the jams/reloads in the thick of a dogfight, so its a challenge as well.

 

And as AI.... well... :cool:

 

I'd agree with Charles too...nobody really would want to fire at an angle (Ball did it early in war when things were a lot different), unless it was a unique type situation/target.

 

Great and interesting addition, thank you ATeam, one I didn't think I'd see for a while. Very pleased. :grin:

Edited by peter01

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Guest Charles

Gunpods are certainly possible in SF/FE, and from memory the SF Weapons Pack actually has a Lewis gun set up as a gun pod already, so it would be quite possible to do this. The Dolphin LOD would have to be changed to remove the current Lewis guns, and the Data.INI file changed to add extra "gunpod" weapon stations. I don't think the Weapons Pack Lewis gun is as well painted and detailed as the ones currently on the Dolphin, and it is not animated, so you wouldn't see the drum revolving when you fire.

 

I may look at doing this when we run out of other new WWI aircraft to do for FE :) but for the moment, enjoy the four-gun firepower.

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Hey Charles , Capun and Team:

 

Thanks so much for your newest addition to the FE experience, the Sopwith Dolphin. As far as the debate about how many guns it should have, I've always been a strong believer that one can never have too many guns!

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Excellent work again guys! :good:

 

Whether the Dolphin rails prevented the Lewis guns from being fired directly forward I cannot definitively say, but I think most pilots would use the Lewis guns in the fixed forward position if they could. I know that I prefer this - I can never hit anything smaller or more manoeuvrable than about a Lancaster or B-17 with oblique-firing weapons.

 

From Osprey's Aircraft of the Aces 48 Dolphin and Snipe aces of WWI by Norman Franks pg. 6

 

"The aircraft was also capable of having two drum-fed 0.303-in Lewis guns fixed to the cockpit cross-member connecting the two upper wings. The pilot could fire these upwards from a fixed position, or move either one in a similar way to guns fitted to the top wing of both the French Nieuport Scouts of 19-17 or the British SE 5 machines. Added to this, at least one squadron experimented with two Lewis guns fitted to the uppersurfaces of the two lower wings, set to fire outside the propeller arc, although once fired, the ammunition drums could obviously not be replaced in the air."

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Nice work A-Team ! Is this available at your skunkworks site somewhere ? Couldn't see it in the WW1 page .... cheers.

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That "Lewis Gun" gunpod mod was tweeked by Capun for me to add over the wing on the Tiger Moth. The acutal gun lod is and M-60, so that COULD be changed, but we'd need a whole new gun lod for that. (was originally built as an M-60 'hanging on' under the wings of the SF/WoV O-1 Birdog FAC)

I don't know how the game engine would handle reloading an add-on pod, so when I made it, it just gave it something like 300 rounds.

 

Something to look at for a future date, methinks

 

Wrench

Kevin Stein

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Wrench , O/T but I love those hanger screen paintings on the A-Team a/c mods. They're very good. Do you do any of the artwork yourself ?

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Interesting discussion regarding the Lewis guns. I think the first thing you have to ask is why. Why would the RFC issue, and apparently continue to do so, a gun mounting design that should have proven itself unworthy in testing as quickly as it apparently did in the field? Reading the many internet sites on the Dolphin, the references to the gun angle indicates (speculates?) they had to be mounted obliquely to avoid the propeller arc (I don't know if the model in FE is all scaled correctly but its clear the Lewis guns are indeed firing throug the prop arc in the sim). Something that may support that idea is the attempt to mount the guns on the lower wings outside the prop arc. If direct fire from the top wing setup was possible, why go to the trouble (mounts, firing mechanism, etc) of moving the guns to a position where they could not be reloaded? Next, it is clear that once in the field either one or both guns were removed. Trading performance for firepower? Possibly. Ridding yourself of the encumbrance of the almost useless extra weight? Also possible. Also I've not yet seen ANY photo of the guns in the forward level firing position. If they could be fired directly, perhaps the pilots simply didn't like the arrangement regardless of the extra firepower? It seems the Lewis guns would obstruct the view, tending to defeat the purpose of the open wing design. Perhaps the Lewis guns were seen as just another thing to crash your head into in a design that was already disconcerting to pilots? :dntknw:

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Perhaps the Lewis guns were seen as just another thing to crash your head into in a design that was already disconcerting to pilots? :dntknw:

Cecil Lewis is alleged to have said "The Sopwith Dolphin was the best fighter design of the war".

I take it from that, he quite liked it. :)

 

From what i can gather on the net, the guns were mounted at 45 degrees, so that they'd be able to shoot over the propellor. (as somebody posted above).

 

regards.

 

edit --> ps.... some Fokker EIV's also had 4 guns ? or was that just the prototypes.

Edited by kendo353

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catch: Thank you for the compliment! Don't I wish I had that kind of talent!! No, they're mostly from my art collection (which didn't include much WW1 stuff -- WW2 & later was my big thing), or model box art.

 

I'd love to use some of the art off the Windsock covers, but don't want to get into any hassels with the publisher & artists. (I know for a fact, the publisher play FE, and d/ls our planes)

 

Wrench

Kevin Stein

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Kevin, hopefully your WWI art collection will increase with kind permission from Windsock as they see the benefits to FE hehe :good:

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I assume that it would not have been possible to gear the lewis guns to the revolution of the prop and as the lewis guns are most definitely inside the arc of the prop, common sense suggests they can't have fired forward.

 

As to the other aircraft that had guns fitter to the top wing, I presume that they fired over prop tip. This would have been possible because their top wing was higher than the Dolphin.

 

and has anyone found a photo of a Dolphin with two Lewis's fitted? I only have photos of the right gun fitted.

 

If this is right, is there a quick fix so the Dolphin doesn't have too much forward firepower?

Edited by LloydNB

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Firstly once again a great plane from the A-Team, Thanks!!!

 

This may sound simple but would be effective, just have two to three aircraft loaded with each type of armament, one with the Lewis's installed, one without and say a further one with the right lewis fitted. You can then simply select from the loadout screen. each could be modelled to reflect the set-up with Lewis's extra drag, without extra speed? This would mean further work from the A-Team but would be simplw fix or am I missing something here?

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has anyone found a photo of a Dolphin with two Lewis's fitted?

Yes, but so far I've only seen them angled upwards, as in the loading screen. One pic, taken from further forward, even shows them splayed outwards.

 

 

 

Like Jasta15, I wondered whether alternative versions might be possible, as was done by Charles with the BE2 series.

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WRT the utility of having an oblique firing angle on the Lewis guns, how do many of you attack aircraft with rear gunners??? If you want to often survive to the next mission in a campaign (and don't want to hit "Refly" as often as I do :rolleyes: ), then you come at them from below and in the gunner's "blind" spot, right?

 

IMHO the 45 degree Lewis' were likely set up as such, perhaps carrying forward a strategy used earlier in the war by Bishop and Ball (to name but only a few), but that may have or must have been outdated by the time of the release of the Dolphin...

 

Why were they issued as such then if they were removed in the field with such regularity? Hey, its the military we're talking about here... :crazy:

 

Its a terrific idea to have the Lewis' available at loadout, I think they'll work great at an oblique angle (with increased drag of course!) for gutting bombers... BUT currently there doesn't seem to be ANY documentation that they fired thru the propeller arc, and as such, represent an inaccuracy (for those so inclined), and a game imbalance by making the Dolphin an uber AC...

 

just my 0.02

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