Useless wingmen...

[ndicki]

What are wingmen for? I go burning into a decent-sized slice of Blitz, bang off a few, run out of ammo and get out, mission accomplished or not. Meanwhile, my wingers are fannying around getting torn to bits, and when I've exited and gone to look at the report, not one has fired a shot despite being up to their necks in targets.

 

Is there somethingI'm not doing? Shouyld I be giving them orders, as in CFS? If so, I couldn't find the button. Or are they there just to get in the way and give you one more thing to worry about?

 

Any help appreciated!

[maverickHR]

same problem!

I fly harrier, and destroing some cars, but when I go check what is my wingman doing, he is at 16 254 m altitude!!He is just having a fun.

I hate that!

[tank03]

What are wingmen for? I go burning into a decent-sized slice of Blitz, bang off a few, run out of ammo and get out, mission accomplished or not. Meanwhile, my wingers are fannying around getting torn to bits, and when I've exited and gone to look at the report, not one has fired a shot despite being up to their necks in targets.

 

Is there somethingI'm not doing? Shouyld I be giving them orders, as in CFS? If so, I couldn't find the button. Or are they there just to get in the way and give you one more thing to worry about?

 

Any help appreciated!

 

Yes, generally the wingmen are useless. A lot depends on their skill and experience. Using the Roster option at the mission briefing you can adjust the flight roster by adding pilots with more experience/skill/ etc.

 

In game it helps if you direct them to attack. The defualt comm key is <Tab> which then gives you a menu of options. You can send individual flights or the whole squardron to attack air targets, or ground targets.

 

I find that unless I tell then to attack, they are just going to fly around uselessly.

[Czech6]

What are wingmen for? I go burning into a decent-sized slice of Blitz, bang off a few, run out of ammo and get out, mission accomplished or not. Meanwhile, my wingers are fannying around getting torn to bits, and when I've exited and gone to look at the report, not one has fired a shot despite being up to their necks in targets.

 

Is there somethingI'm not doing? Shouyld I be giving them orders, as in CFS? If so, I couldn't find the button. Or are they there just to get in the way and give you one more thing to worry about?

 

Any help appreciated!

 

Do a AI wingman search here and at the Thirdwire forum. There has been a lot of discussion on this topic.

 

Your #2 can be directed to attack your air or ground target (including the mission objective) if you have the target selected. #3 and #4, as well as any other flights can only be given generic commands of "Attack Air" or "Attack Ground". They won't go for the mission objective or your selected target.

 

#2 can also be told to "Cover me" and he'll try to stay on your six and keep it clear. Use "Rejoin" after any of the commands to your #2 or the other flights, or you will leave them behind in the melee.

 

You can adjust the AI wingman settings (Novice, Expert, Ace, etc.) in the AircraftObject.ini file which is in the Flight folder (or which you may have to extract from the cat file using the cat extractor software). Or, you can download the UberAI mod from the Objects Download page on this web site and it will give you a modified AircraftObject.ini file to install in the Flight folder. Any AI changes in this file will also effect the enemy AI's performance.

 

They still won't be perfect, but should perform better. See the forums on these issues.

[sparkomatic]

sadly, this is one f the things that pitches wildly after each patch...post patch 2 they were actually useful...then post the service pack...well they reverted to "take off...tab...wingman...return to base" just because the game seems to penalize your score if you loose on of the buggers

 

but you are right...they just freakin waste fuel and draw your irk...

[Wrench]

I thought they were just in-game to draw off fighers, flak and SAMs????

 

Wrench

kevin stein

[ndicki]

Well, I'm glad to know it's not just me!

 

Off to try the tweaks you suggested, but it sounds a bit as though they won't change much!

 

(AircraftObject.ini was in "Objects" - but I've found it, anyway!)

Edited December 31, 2007 by ndicki

[echoco]

Haha yeah I thought they were just there to draw off fighters too would be too much if every other fighter was tailing you when you're picking a target.

 

I usually use my #2 as bait and get easy kills when a mig tries to shoot him down, either that or use him to take out the ground objectives (the only thing I found wingman useful for).

 

The other wingmen were actually quite good at taking out bombers thought they do get killed quite alot too. I even shot one wingman down once when he flew into my stream of bullets.

[ndicki]

In CFS3 I've often complained about the clueless so-and-sos, but I have been shot down more than once by my own winger having a squirt at the same target I'm on! That seems pretty unlikely round here...

 

I've upgraded all levels of ability to "ace", so let's see what thjat does. If it makes the enemy any better, though, it'll make life challenging... I'm not much cop with missile evasion!

[SandyC]

I find that you need to keep reminding them to attack. For ground pounding, I give them the command to attack the ground through 'Tab' as I begin my attack run - and then repeat it just before I release my ordnance. Do it earlier and they wander off to other locations. But as the action progresses, I keep sending out a stream of commands. I find that as long as I stick around the scene and issue orders, they do quite a bit of damage. If I head for home, they just fly around until they get wasted or eventually RTB. Last mission out, the AI in a 16-ship Iron Hand attack force killed a whole selection of radars and SAM launchers, as well as a couple of AAA mounts - and that was right down to the sixteenth ship. If I do not issue orders, they just fly around uselessly and RTB with full weapons loads. Sometimes I act as a kind of aerial fire director, orbiting the target, ordering the AI ships in and then attacking when they are committed. But there is no logic to it. I can always guarantee that no matter how many orders I issue, a few of the AI will appear in the log as 'No weapon fired'!

 

I don't know if I am just lucky but I set up a 4-ship AI F4 CAP formation and, although 2 were blown to bits by a SAM salvo, the two survivors knocked 8 MiG-19s out of the sky in a Sparrow-fest. It could also be that the AI behaves better in missions you make yourself than it does in the missions generated by the game engine.

 

People criticise the flight models of the AI in the IL-2 series but the AI aircraft naturally do the fighting business when they are in a mission. It is harder work to get them fighting in TW games but it can be done.

[Wolf65]

I only use one wingman and that's so someone can cover my tail or bomb a target.

[Wrench]

don't forget, too the Enhanced AI data, added directly to the (as in each) aircraft data ini:

 

[AIData]

AileronDeltaRoll=1.2

AileronRollRate=-1.0

ElevatorDeltaPitch=1.0

ElevatorPitchRate=-0.1

ThrottleDeltaSpeed=0.01

ThrottleVelocity=-0.05

DeltaSpeedForAfterburner=10

DeltaSpeedForAirbrakes=-30

MaxPitchForAltitude=15.0

MinPitchForAltitude=-35.0

PitchForThrottle=0.002

PitchForAltitude=0.005

PitchForVerticalVelocity=-0.01

RollForHeading=35.0

RollForHeadingRate=-0.5

MinRollHeading=15.0

MaxRollForHeading=45.0

PitchForRoll=0.25

FormationSpeedForPosition=0.8

FormationSpeedForRate=0.5

GunnerFireChance=100

GunnerFireTime=2.5

GunnerAimOffset=0.0050

 

I don't know exactly what it do, but it DO help. All my add-on mods use it, and I've added it to a lot of others as well

 

Wrench

kevin stein

[Viggen]

When ever I am flying Soviet and the whole second flight does nothing I shoot down the flight lead deaming him a Traitor to the Party. The rest are sent to the Gulag.

[Wolf65]

When ever I am flying Soviet and the whole second flight does nothing I shoot down the flight lead deaming him a Traitor to the Party. The rest are sent to the Gulag.

 

Well atleast your in the spirit of things.

[Jarhead1]

LMAO, Viggen, I do the same thing, but the rest are sent to have their heads cut off, as I play Iraqi Air Force as a 3 time OIF vet, I have seen some of what was left of the Iraqi AF for real.

[Czech6]

Well, I'm glad to know it's not just me!

 

Off to try the tweaks you suggested, but it sounds a bit as though they won't change much!

 

(AircraftObject.ini was in "Objects" - but I've found it, anyway!)

 

Yes, you are right, it's in Objects. I was working on some other tweaks on the files in Flight and that was where my mind was at. Most of the files that alter missions are in Flight.

 

As Wrench stated, altering the AIData can also make big changes in AI behavior. Here's mine:

 

[AIData]

AileronDeltaRoll=1.2

AileronRollRate=-1.0

ElevatorDeltaPitch=0.75//1.0

ElevatorPitchRate=-0.01//-0.1

ThrottleDeltaSpeed=0.05

ThrottleVelocity=-0.01

DeltaSpeedForAfterburner=5.1//50

DeltaSpeedForAirbrakes=-5.1//-50

MaxPitchForAltitude=10//25.0

MinPitchForAltitude=-10//-15.0

PitchForThrottle=0.005

PitchForAltitude=0.005//0.01

PitchForVerticalVelocity=-0.01

RollForHeading=15.0

RollForHeadingRate=-0.5

MinRollHeading=15.0

MaxRollForHeading=60.0

PitchForRoll=0.23

FormationSpeedForPosition=0.8

FormationSpeedForRate=0.5

GunnerFireChance=80

GunnerFireTime=2.5

GunnerAimOffset=0.0050

MaxRollCombat=360.0//60.0

MaxPitchCombat=75.0//50.0

MaxRollFormation=75.0//0.45

FormationRollForPosition=0.1//0.01

FormationRollForVelocity=0.1

RollForGunAttack=0.5

RollForGunAttackRate=-0.1

 

I don't think this a modified stock SP1/WOV/WOE AIData. I think I cut and pasted it from FE in the hopes that some of the additional functions would work in those sims. A little bit goes a long way when you alter values in this file. I've at least got the jet jockies using burner more often to close up formation. Still a work in progress as I haven't got the AI to totally stop the porpoise kick as they join up, which I find annoying (if I tone down elevator response too much it takes them forever to climb to formation). I've spent more time experimenting with this data than any other, primarily due to the AI responses in FE. I finally set FE aside as it was giving me a headache. However, its paid off in the jet sims and KAW (got the B-29's to tone down the rolls).

[Fubar512]

There are some interesting anomalies in the current game-code.

 

For example, I once flew a B-52 strike in WoV, managed to get myself shot down by a SAM, and decided to let the game run, just to observe my flight's behavior. I was surprised to see the entire flight nail the primary target, without any direction from me!

 

It seems that if the (non-AI) flight leader gets killed, the rest of the flight reverts to some basic AI-code, and attacks just as they would, had they been an AI-led flight to begin with.

 

This is the same behavior that you'll see when you're flying an intercept mission against an opposing strike-package. They always manage to bore in on the primary target (unless you shoot them down, of course).

[Czech6]

There are some interesting anomalies in the current game-code.

 

For example, I once flew a B-52 strike in WoV, managed to get myself shot down by a SAM, and decided to let the game run, just to observe my flight's behavior. I was surprised to see the entire flight nail the primary target, without any direction from me!

 

It seems that if the (non-AI) flight leader gets killed, the rest of the flight reverts to some basic AI-code, and attacks just as they would, had they been an AI-led flight to begin with.

 

This is the same behavior that you'll see when you're flying an intercept mission against an opposing strike-package. They always manage to bore in on the primary target (unless you shoot them down, of course).

 

I've noticed the same thing when I don't Esc right away after I'm brought down. I F6 to my wingmen to see how they follow up, and they seem to do pretty good. Maybe the #3 takes over. I'll have to try a mission with iall nexperienced AI wingmen and see if that causes a problem if I'm taken out.

 

I've also noticed I'm usually the primary target for AAA and SAMS. I usually only take a #2, but sometimes I take a 2nd element armed for SEAD and I stick myself up there as bait and let them fire off the Shrikes while #2 is assigned the primary target. Doesn't always work, especially with networked SAMS since I start losing track of all the SAM calls. I might delete the networking to give myself an edge.

[sparkomatic]

LMAO, Viggen, I do the same thing, but the rest are sent to have their heads cut off, as I play Iraqi Air Force as a 3 time OIF vet, I have seen some of what was left of the Iraqi AF for real.

 

 

did you ever go to al Taqaddum or al Asad?

[Shin_kazama]

wingmen are not that useless. i use them in arade formations. thats all,

[+Dave]

I wish we could get patch 2 AI back..... by far the best they have ever been.

[Outlaw7]

I've also discovered if your flight is heavily laden for a strike and you call them to attack air they will dump all their ground ordnance. They kill the migs, but they get themselves killed because they'll come in to take out a ZSU or other ADA with their vulcan. Sparkomatic-I'll be in Al Asad this fall sometime.

[Buzzard 72]

The wingmen in the flight are nothing more than errant children and are akin to herding cats to get to attack targets successfully. I do manage to get thme to though (oddly). I don't let second element off the leash until we are 10 miles from the objective. They are a genuine pain to get to recall though and that's usually when there's an issue and one gets downed.

[Viggen]

Oh! Oh! Yesturday I was playing stock non patched WOE in the 1979 Red Lightning campaign and this one dude in my flight well he was the nooby:no combat low skill, experience, moral, etc and he killed 5 MiG-23s! Both the other guys in the flight killed two Fishbeds a piece!

[sparkomatic]

come to think of it, same here...I had a no-skill wingman and he was an ace in a single mission, but the high skill dudes do nothing...maybe the silly thing is reversed as in the values shown in the duty roster are opposite the actual skill of the pilot in question?