Flying F-4Es from the most powerful nation on the planet

[MigBuster 2,884]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7352654.stm

 

 

[eraser_tr 29]

OMG! Our F-22's don't stand a chance against that

[+streakeagle 871]

The F-4 is going to outlive the F-15 that replaced it in US service.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are still F-4s in service when the F-22 is withdrawn from US service.

[Longestpants 1]

A fighter is a fighter but a Phantom is an air force.

[MAKO69 186]

Guys and gals come on the phantom was....."WAS" a great platform, but it can't compete w/the modern fighter aircraft club. It would be like bringing a six shooter from the old west to gun fight were the openent has that super .50 cal sniper rifle. You folks have heard of beyond vis range missles right. Same thing the Guy w/ the old gun doesnt see or here it coming game ova.

 

P.S. Dont get me wrong I love the Phantom for what it was, and love it as a "WAR BIRD" now.

 

Later Be safe peeps

[Nesher 628]

yeah yeah.. mr Mahmoud should stick to eating banana's in the zoo where he belongs :D

[MAKO69 186]

Cause the peeps flying the f-4 wont be able to buy surplus f-15 and f-22 from the peeps that operate them.

 

The F-4 is going to outlive the F-15 that replaced it in US service.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are still F-4s in service when the F-22 is withdrawn from US service.

[MAKO69 186]

WE use the f-4 as target practice already not much would change right.

 

Cause the peeps flying the f-4 wont be able to buy surplus f-15 and f-22 from the peeps that operate them.

[+streakeagle 871]

An F-4, like any aircraft, is a weapon system.

Certain parts of the F-4 have been updated (radar, ecm, missiles), others still could be (engines).

Both the age and the original design limitations of the airframe ensure that the F-4 will never be able to mix it up with agile dogfighters... but then that was the way the F-4 always has been from the start.

 

Aside from agility, what does an F-16 or F-18 do that the F-4F+ ICE, F-4E 2000, F-4EJ, and updated F-4Es in Greece and Turkey can't do?

The F-4's payload capacity has never been an issue... it is still a great bomb truck and 8 air-to-air missiles is still a decent warload for interception.

If there are any weapons it can't deliver due to fire control lmitations, that is nothing that can't be fixed with some hasty re-wiring and a few black boxes or software updates.

There are two ways to deal with stealth capabilities:

1) make your platform stealthy (which isn't going to happen with the F-4, but what aircraft currently in service are truly stealthy beyond the B-2, F-22, and F-35?).

2) give your platform sensors which overcome stealth (i.e. advanced radar and infrared/thermal imaging).

 

The F-4 is no more obsolete than my 1980 Corvette... it is old and maintenance hungry, but otherwise does all the jobs it always did as well as it always did.

For many nations, upgrading their F-4 fleet is so much cheaper than buying new planes.

With the right upgrades, it is not a bad option as long as you don't frequently get into dogfights with F-16s, F-18s, MiG-29s, or Su-27s.

 

In the case of Iran, it would be interesting to see how operational their F-4 fleet really is.

Are they just stock F-4Es as delivered degraded by age and lack of decent spare parts?

Or have they been updated to remain competitive against much more modern systems owned by neighbors?

Even if they are pretty much stock, they still have guns and can still competently shoot down anything short of modern agile fighters (and could even do that with good tactics--think F4Fs versus A6Ms).

 

If they face the US and their F-4s get toasted by F-15s and F-16s, they won't be doing any worse than any other air force that has faced the same combination, including MiG-29s.

Part of the US success (and allies employing the same aircraft) has been the design of the aircraft, but more of it has been the improvement in weapons systems combined with excellent pilot training and outstanding maintenance crews.

[Stick 773]

Its pretty pathetic the lengths a human being will go to , to ensure his security, or to allow himself to feel that way. After all dont we all like to go to bed behind closed doors.This basic need of security is reflected even in our politics.

Delusions of grandiosity and ultimate power are not uncommon to statesman and dictators alike.

The hyena always shrieks when the lions sleep.

[MAKO69 186]

The F-4 Was a great aircraft dont get me wrong. If the F-4 has Air Superiortity (Which was provided by another aircraft) yes its a good Platform for air to ground as a bomb truck. Now the F-4F was a dumbed up F-4E for the GE airforce, the ICE programe I think was started sometime around 1982 or 1983 and finished some 10 years later in a 2 phase programme so that plane has a good fighting chance against aircraft the same or less capability. The F-4F+ICE was a great upgrade on an old plane state of the art stuff in mid to late 1980s early 90's. Next The F-4 2000 was a great upgrade for an old plane I think it was somtime in 1989 it was operational. Meant for the air to ground role . The The F-4 EJ another good upgrade meant as a stop gap till all squdrons are flying the F-15. The Greek and Turkish F-4s another great upgrade meant to extend the life of an old work horse. You make great points However. If I was going to have to fight my way into a AO drop my ord. and come home to my family I would want an the before mentioned F-16, F-18. None of the F-4s however could make it in a war today as a front line aircraft. Its Rein as King has come and gone, but I'll say again the F-4 was one of the best fighters in its day. It has no place on the modern battlefield.

 

 

 

An F-4, like any aircraft, is a weapon system.

Certain parts of the F-4 have been updated (radar, ecm, missiles), others still could be (engines).

Both the age and the original design limitations of the airframe ensure that the F-4 will never be able to mix it up with agile dogfighters... but then that was the way the F-4 always has been from the start.

 

Aside from agility, what does an F-16 or F-18 do that the F-4F+ ICE, F-4E 2000, F-4EJ, and updated F-4Es in Greece and Turkey can't do?

The F-4's payload capacity has never been an issue... it is still a great bomb truck and 8 air-to-air missiles is still a decent warload for interception.

If there are any weapons it can't deliver due to fire control lmitations, that is nothing that can't be fixed with some hasty re-wiring and a few black boxes or software updates.

There are two ways to deal with stealth capabilities:

1) make your platform stealthy (which isn't going to happen with the F-4, but what aircraft currently in service are truly stealthy beyond the B-2, F-22, and F-35?).

2) give your platform sensors which overcome stealth (i.e. advanced radar and infrared/thermal imaging).

 

The F-4 is no more obsolete than my 1980 Corvette... it is old and maintenance hungry, but otherwise does all the jobs it always did as well as it always did.

For many nations, upgrading their F-4 fleet is so much cheaper than buying new planes.

With the right upgrades, it is not a bad option as long as you don't frequently get into dogfights with F-16s, F-18s, MiG-29s, or Su-27s.

 

In the case of Iran, it would be interesting to see how operational their F-4 fleet really is.

Are they just stock F-4Es as delivered degraded by age and lack of decent spare parts?

Or have they been updated to remain competitive against much more modern systems owned by neighbors?

Even if they are pretty much stock, they still have guns and can still competently shoot down anything short of modern agile fighters (and could even do that with good tactics--think F4Fs versus A6Ms).

 

If they face the US and their F-4s get toasted by F-15s and F-16s, they won't be doing any worse than any other air force that has faced the same combination, including MiG-29s.

Part of the US success (and allies employing the same aircraft) has been the design of the aircraft, but more of it has been the improvement in weapons systems combined with excellent pilot training and outstanding maintenance crews.

[+streakeagle 871]

The F-4 can and does continue to serve quite successfully on the modern battlefield... that's not my opinion, it is a fact.

In the case of the now retired F-4G, no other aircraft has stepped up to replace it... certainly not the F-16s which are now attempting to fill the Wild Weasel role.

Perhaps it would be futile to put F-4s up against F-22s, but according to exercises the F-15, F-16, F-18, MiG-29, Su-27, etc. are all woefully obsolete as well...

Of course there are literally thousands of those other aircraft operational all over the world and only a few hundred F-22s are ever going to be built.

 

You are free to believe whatever you want, but the many air forces still operating the F-4 obviously believe differently than you.

[MAKO69 186]

The diffrence between the F-4 and a modern aircraft is the diffrence between throwing a bullet and shooting bullet they simply do not compare.

[MAKO69 186]

P.S. Bad news news on the Vette its not a maintance pig alright its just a pig . A 1980 Corvette has more in common with a ford pinto than a modern performance car. C-5s and C-6s Are world class turners. C-3 is looks only.

 

 

[serverandenforcer 33]

"with a fly past by almost 200 aircraft."

 

Well, at least we now know what their total air strength is

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

"with a fly past by almost 200 aircraft."

 

Well, at least we now know what their total air strength is

 

Yeah, but how many civilian aerodromes did they clear for it? Boxkites don't count!

 

 

Seriously though, they do have a large amount of serviceable aircraft. A lot of people make the mistake of underestimating the IRIAF's strength given their predominantly US based platforms and the decades of arms embargos. But they really have worked wonders in trying to duplicate what they need to maintain a fair sized air force. I'm not saying it's a world leader, but it's certainly no North Korean AF! I mean, they still have something like 20 Tomcats flying... that's no small feat.

[+Dave 2,322]

None of the F-4s however could make it in a war today as a front line aircraft. Its Rein as King has come and gone, but I'll say again the F-4 was one of the best fighters in its day. It has no place on the modern battlefield.

 

That is the most ignorant statement I have read on this site to date. And you are what expert and base this on what evidence?

 

Lets see the got the JASDF flying F-4EJ Kai's by far the most advanced F-4's in the air to date. Then you got the Turkish AF flying the F-4 2020's, which is almost a completely different bird. Yes the air forces that are flying them are still flying them for good reason. Its one of the most potent A2G platforms in the air today. Now they have been updated with modern avionics and weapon systems they are even more dangerous than before.

[+Dave 2,322]

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f4_14.html

 

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f4_46.html

[tflash 3]

The Phantom is so charismatic that it will live forever! And you get the GIB for free! I like modern fighters but I must agree that if you're looking for a potent strike fighter, the Phantom is still a force to count with.

 

There is a double volume of the french "avions" historical magazine (hors serie 22/23) that goes into incredible detail about the Iran-Iraq war (to me the ultimate SFP1 scenery). It has numerous accounts by Iranian Phantom and F-14 crews. It must be said that Iran gave a serious vindication to both these classic platforms in the eighties. It wasn't air superiority the F-15 way but the Iranians were sure happy to have them.

 

Besides being a great bomber, the Phantom excelled in the anti-shipping role with the AGM-65A maverick (this success inspired the USN to order their variant, which was to become the AGM-65F).

[+Dave 2,322]

Most F-4's now can carry the AGM-142. Some have been modified to carry the AMRAAM aka Fetch em Fido. Others are modfied to carry the Litening pod. It has been modfied in Japan to a lethal anti shipping platform. Also one further the Turkish AF is doing, they are giving a standoff jamming capability with some very advanced jamming pods from Israel. So to say it would not make it in the modern battlefield is moot at best.

[MAKO69 186]

What Im saying is the F-4 in any form can not be your #1 plane. Compare it to a football team. In modern battle it cant be a starter. Its got to be speacial teams or 2nd string. If all you got for your #1 plane is the F-4 phantom, good luck taking on a nation that has a modern airforce. The JASDF F-4 EJ KAI is a great upgrade glass cockpit, radar, computers good stuff meant to prolong the life of an aging dog. That upgrade was started in 1984 or 1985 with first units deployed in 1989 (20 years ago). Turkey and Greec its OK both comparable air Arms that rely on other aircraft as fighter interceptors. The F-4E 2020 a very similer upgrade to the F-4 2000 meant for the air to ground role. The greek F-4E had a similar upgrade to the F-4F+ICE I'll say those have a fighing chance, because they are AMRRAM capable. A modern airforce against a nation using F-4s, Its common sense not ignorance. When 1 F-22 can shoot down 6 F-15, and the F-15 had no clue were the F-22 was, I say good luck to the guy flying the f-4 in any form of upgrade. If you read my previous statement I took nothing away from the aircrafts air to ground capability. If the plane was still pheasable why are we not using it as a front line fighter, instead we use it as target drone. Because we are a modern aiforce.

 

 

 

That is the most ignorant statement I have read on this site to date. And you are what expert and base this on what evidence?

 

Lets see the got the JASDF flying F-4EJ Kai's by far the most advanced F-4's in the air to date. Then you got the Turkish AF flying the F-4 2020's, which is almost a completely different bird. Yes the air forces that are flying them are still flying them for good reason. Its one of the most potent A2G platforms in the air today. Now they have been updated with modern avionics and weapon systems they are even more dangerous than before.

[MAKO69 186]

He brought up the 1980 Corvette. I could'nt resist my 01 C-5 does the job better than a C-3 corvette could ever dream of doing. That was a bad analogy.

 

 

 

P.S. Bad news news on the Vette its not a maintance pig alright its just a pig . A 1980 Corvette has more in common with a ford pinto than a modern performance car. C-5s and C-6s Are world class turners. C-3 is looks only.

 

 

[+Dave 2,322]

That Mako is a true statemnet, if the F-4 is your frontline fighter, then you might in wee bit of trouble. But the F-4 does have its place in the modern battlefield.

 

If the plane was still pheasable why are we not using it as a front line fighter, instead we use it as target drone. Because we are a modern aiforce.

 

 

It's called politcal pressure and lobbists, the same thing that turned the Navy into an all F-18 Navy. Nothing to do with the capability of the aircraft, it was about money.

[MAKO69 186]

Then we wasted a lot of money on aircraft. The F-18 thing is a whole other can of worms.

 

 

That Mako is a true statemnet, if the F-4 is your frontline fighter, then you might in wee bit of trouble. But the F-4 does have its place in the modern battlefield.

 

 

 

 

It's called politcal pressure and lobbists, the same thing that turned the Navy into an all F-18 Navy. Nothing to do with the capability of the aircraft, it was about money.

[+Dave 2,322]

Then we wasted a lot of money on aircraft. The F-18 thing is a whole other can of worms.

 

Yes we have, I got a list you want it?