Kennedy Assassination

[+Dave 2,322]

Did anyone watch the CBS evening news last night? They had a segment on there about the theories of the 4 shooters etc etc of the JFK assassination. The Discovery channel set up a test, put an exact car with people the exact height, weight, in the exact spot as those who were in it on that fateful day in 1963 when Kennedy got hit. They set up in the exact spots in Dallas to get set up data. Then used that setup data at a range using lasers as guides then did actual live firing.

 

1. The theories that the were 2 shooters ahead of the car got debunked immediately.

a. One of the snipers TDC used would have had to shoot through the windshield to get the shot. The windshield in the actual event never got touched.

b. The other sniper did not have a clear shot at all.

 

2. The grassy knoll shooter results were not consistent at all either.

a. Again a sniper was used and in this case the angle was wrong for the injuries JFK received.

 

3. Finally the shots from the book depository building.

a. The injuries sustained to the test dummy were consistent with the ones JFK received.

 

I thought this was very interesting. And by far will it put to rest the all the theories out there? No it won't, but it does go a long way in debunking alot of those conspriacy theories. I mean its hard to beat cold hard scientific facts.

[+DoctorQuest 125]

I did not get to see the actual show but it does sound like one of the most solid attempts at recreating the actual events I've ever heard of. I'm going to try to catch a re-run if it's available.

 

I get a little weary of the fuzzy photos and fuzzy logic of most of the conspiracy theorists. Makes for good talk radio but we you push them for this kind of evidence they seem to scurry away. (Or claim all the evidence was destroy/covered up/etc.)

[+wilco 11]

How a conspiracy theory works: If it gets debunked by scientific facts, it's probably another conspiracy by 'them' to cover up the 'truth'. Simple, yet convincing. Life can be so easy.

[+Dave 2,322]

How a conspiracy theory works: If it gets debunked by scientific facts, it's probably another conspiracy by 'them' to cover up the 'truth'. Simple, yet convincing. Life can be so easy.

 

Well it is hard test evidence. I will admit, even I thought there might of been more than one shooter. But when they showed the sight picture of the first 2, the evidence was right there. Either blast through the windshield which didn't happen. The other would of had to shoot through the frame of the windshield. That didn't happen either. Now I would hypothesize if JFK had been shot from those location there would of been grey matter all over the trunk and rear area of the car in mass quantities. Which there wasn't. So you can't cover that up.

[+Typhoid 231]

How a conspiracy theory works: If it gets debunked by scientific facts, it's probably another conspiracy by 'them' to cover up the 'truth'. Simple, yet convincing. Life can be so easy.

 

yep. the pathology of conspiracy theories are essentially self-fulfilling and based on mass secrecy (which is of course impossible) and circular illogic.

 

reality need not apply.

[+Jug 99]

Did anyone watch the CBS evening news last night? They had a segment on there about the theories of the 4 shooters etc etc of the JFK assassination. The Discovery channel set up a test, put an exact car with people the exact height, weight, in the exact spot as those who were in it on that fateful day in 1963 when Kennedy got hit. They set up in the exact spots in Dallas to get set up data. Then used that setup data at a range using lasers as guides then did actual live firing.

 

1. The theories that the were 2 shooters ahead of the car got debunked immediately.

a. One of the snipers TDC used would have had to shoot through the windshield to get the shot. The windshield in the actual event never got touched.

b. The other sniper did not have a clear shot at all.

 

2. The grassy knoll shooter results were not consistent at all either.

a. Again a sniper was used and in this case the angle was wrong for the injuries JFK received.

 

3. Finally the shots from the book depository building.

a. The injuries sustained to the test dummy were consistent with the ones JFK received.

 

I thought this was very interesting. And by far will it put to rest the all the theories out there? No it won't, but it does go a long way in debunking alot of those conspriacy theories. I mean its hard to beat cold hard scientific facts.

Environmentalists do it all the time. If active, evil conspiracies are what makes your life worthwhile, no amount of scientific or factual proof is going to sway you.

[+wilco 11]

Dave, my point is that in the end facts won't pose a problem to any conspiracy theory. The numerous attempts to debunk these theories usually cause the creation of new ones. You simply can't overcome a handy, yet perverted psychological mechanism that relieves people from the 'burden of reality'. A conspiracy theory helps people to cope with a reality they can't cope with; be it by eliminating contradictive/dissonant perceptions or by reducing the complexity of particular relation. It's not that they have the wrong facts; they simply believe in their theory, because it explains everything. You're lost when this mechanism becomes pathologic. Anti-semitism works exactly the same way: 'Hey, let's blame the Jews for everything we don't understand.' That can be a pain in the ass, especially when you're a teacher...

[+Dave 2,322]

Good point wilco.

[+SkippyBing 8]

If active, evil conspiracies are what makes your life worthwhile, no amount of scientific or factual proof is going to sway you.

 

You mean like the one where all the women in the world are refusing to date me? Doesn't make my life worthwhile as such...

[Wolf65 0]

Wow, that's really a professional look at debunking.

[+Dave 2,322]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27705829/

 

Here is the one I am referring too.

[Ruggbutt 45]

Just because it "could" have been done by one shooter doesn't mean that it was done by one shooter. As many people as Kennedy had pissed off the odds are that it wasn't one lone gunman.

[+Dave 2,322]

Just because it "could" have been done by one shooter doesn't mean that it was done by one shooter. As many people as Kennedy had pissed off the odds are that it wasn't one lone gunman.

 

Well the evidence points to the contrary. Could there have been other shooters? Yes, but the actual shooting based on this test proves it there was only one.

[JediMaster 451]

All it proves is that Kennedy was only hit by that one shooter, not there weren't others ready to take the shot in case he missed. Also there's no solid proof that I've ever heard that Oswald actually was that guy, unless I missed something. You know, the REAL assassin was someone else and Oswald was just the patsy setup to take the fall because he was, well, a whacko.

The Ruby-kills-him-then-dies-quickly-of-cancer-himself was awful convenient as well.

 

However, there remains one OVERWHELMING problem with the lone gunman theory that the gov't can't debunk--why are so many details of the assassination report then classified? There's no state secrets involving one nutjob with a rifle shooting from a window, so what's up with THAT?

Either A) there's more to the story than we've been told and that's kept under wraps or

B) some of the people who were remiss in their duties that "allowed" it to happen had their negligence classified to keep themselves safe. Can't go losing your job just because the President was killed, can you?

[Fubar512 1,350]

Well, a lone wacko nut-job managed to get close enough to point a loaded .45 at Gerald Ford, and another managed to shoot Reagan, and yet another managed to bring an SKS literally to the entrance of the White House, and got off 29 rounds at a group of men, one of whom the nut-job thought was Clinton. Yet, there's no conspiracy theories surrounding those three acts.

[+SkippyBing 8]

However, there remains one OVERWHELMING problem with the lone gunman theory that the gov't can't debunk--why are so many details of the assassination report then classified?

 

The one simple answer to that is that governments like classifying stuff. The US Government certainly still had troop movements from WW1 classified as recently as ten years ago for no obvious reason.

 

The rather good book 'How to Kill' has a section on the Kennedy assassination and debunks all the 'popular' conspiracy theories, there really is no evidence that anyone other than Oswald was involved. I mean the shot must have come from the schoolbook repository, how many other people due you think were hiding in there with guns just in case?

[GwynO 16]

From what I gather, Kennedy got the goat of many many many people, not least the right wing nut jobs who took a young liberal s******** in the White House as a step towards "Commienism" ^tm. I wonder, when the inevitable shots are fired against Obama, what kind of conspiracy stories will that provoke? Perhaps it is just to uncomfortable to realise that in a country where passions run so high about politics, race and so on, where almost everyone can get a gun... assassinations will inevitably result. What other options are there.. I believe there may be a spare Pope Mobile at the Vatican if he is interested, but in all fairness, I wonder why no one tried topping off Bush

[Fubar512 1,350]

I wonder why no one tried topping off Bush

 

Two, and possibly three attempts were made. Read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unite...nation_attempts

[GwynO 16]

Two, and possibly three attempts were made. Read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unite...nation_attempts

 

Very interesting reading. I wonder had those attempts been successful, would we see so many conspiracy theories pointing the finger at the "government" or some other usual suspect. My gut instinct is that one reason why the Kennedy conspiracies gained so much ground is that the segment of the American public that were shocked and dismayed that this happened to their "nice guy" gained comfort from any explanation that made this event something special, elevating it from the level of common Americans to some sinister other. Rather than accept he was killed by a fellow citizen, any other explanation no matter how implausible was a comforting alternative.

[+Jug 99]

All it proves is that Kennedy was only hit by that one shooter, not there weren't others ready to take the shot in case he missed. Also there's no solid proof that I've ever heard that Oswald actually was that guy, unless I missed something. You know, the REAL assassin was someone else and Oswald was just the patsy setup to take the fall because he was, well, a whacko.

The Ruby-kills-him-then-dies-quickly-of-cancer-himself was awful convenient as well.

 

However, there remains one OVERWHELMING problem with the lone gunman theory that the gov't can't debunk--why are so many details of the assassination report then classified? There's no state secrets involving one nutjob with a rifle shooting from a window, so what's up with THAT?

Either A) there's more to the story than we've been told and that's kept under wraps or

B) some of the people who were remiss in their duties that "allowed" it to happen had their negligence classified to keep themselves safe. Can't go losing your job just because the President was killed, can you?

Could be that the people behind the assination are the classified part. Oswald was an arrow that someone pointed. What if the part that is classified brings to light positive proof that the Russians planned, financed, trained, and, otherwise, setup Oswald. America would have demanded satisfaction and we would have had WWIII. Oswald as the lone shooter and any consipiracy theory surrounding co-conspirators/other shooters are may be just incidental to the real story.

 

Try this one. Could be that the case for Soviet involvement is what Gorbachev heard in a briefing here when he was deciding which way to go in the late 80's or early 90's. Kennedy remains a popular figure and reaction to his demise at the hands of the Godless Communists would be almost as fierce as if had been announced immediately following the assination. We just told him there could be no retribution required of an overturned government. Another cog in the wheel that brought down the evil empire.

Edited November 14, 2008 by Jug

[Syrinx 13]

Personally I'm still waiting for the invention of a time machine.

 

Someone can go back and tell us what really happened.

 

Can't have been invented though because sure as eggs if someone did go back they'd try to prevent it. Causality notwithstanding.

 

Seeing as he's still dead (in this universe:-)) I take it to mean a time machine hasn't been done now or in the future.

 

Unless they have a very good ethical policy of non-intervention.

 

Seriously though, it's one of those mysteries that will always provoke conspiracy theories.

 

Would be kind of interesting to speculate the direction of US policy had he lived.

[GwynO 16]

Would be kind of interesting to speculate the direction of US policy had he lived.

 

I believe that is exactly the reason why Oswald killed him, and had he survived, there would have been many more willing to kill him. It's also the reason I doubt that the Soviets would have had anything to do with it. Kennedy was the best thing to happen for the Soviet hawks.. he encouraged a space race that the Soviets believed they could win, he was weak and ineffectual when it came to Cuba.. Thanks to Kennedy, air support for the Bay of Pigs was not forthcoming and led to the current status quo over that island. I can't see how the Soviet military could have had any reason for topping him. Mossad, the Mob, or fundamentalists on the other hand...

[macelena 1,070]

Personally I'm still waiting for the invention of a time machine.

 

Someone can go back and tell us what really happened.

 

Can't have been invented though because sure as eggs if someone did go back they'd try to prevent it. Causality notwithstanding.

 

Seeing as he's still dead (in this universe:-)) I take it to mean a time machine hasn't been done now or in the future.

 

Unless they have a very good ethical policy of non-intervention.

 

Seriously though, it's one of those mysteries that will always provoke conspiracy theories.

 

Would be kind of interesting to speculate the direction of US policy had he lived.

 

 

Well we should see if Obama is like Kennedy or like Roosevelt

(Franklin, of course) so use it

[+SkippyBing 8]

Personally I'm still waiting for the invention of a time machine.

 

Someone can go back and tell us what really happened.

 

Can't have been invented though because sure as eggs if someone did go back they'd try to prevent it. Causality notwithstanding.

 

Seeing as he's still dead (in this universe:-)) I take it to mean a time machine hasn't been done now or in the future.

 

Unless they have a very good ethical policy of non-intervention.

 

Seriously though, it's one of those mysteries that will always provoke conspiracy theories.

 

Would be kind of interesting to speculate the direction of US policy had he lived.

 

Maybe they do invent time machines and someone went back to assassinate him because if he lives it's all too awful. If you think about it too much it gets very confusing knowing what tense to use.

Edited November 15, 2008 by SkippyBing

[Syrinx 13]

Maybe they do invent time machines and someone went back to assassinate him because if he lives it's all too awful. If you think about it too much it gets very confusing knowing what tense to use.

 

Hey you might be onto something there.

 

Time travelling assassins...