Do you fly for your own country in sims?

[toonces 4]

Hello all.

 

Gepard proposed an interesting thread in another part of the forum in which he asked if members tended to fly for a specific country in flight sims. A question like this begs a further question to me- if you don't fly for a certain country, why not?

 

So, rather than explore this question in his thread, I'll open it up here.

 

Stiglr has taken the torch with this discussion in the other thread, and it is with him at the tip of the spear that I direct my response here.

 

I posted this at another forum a while back, and I quote here:

 

 

"Hi all.

 

I'm reading book 3 in Toonces' Book Club ™: Endgame, 1945.

 

I'm about 85 pages in. The book is basically about the end of the European theater in WW2 and its immediate aftermath.

 

I read, last night, about the time towards the end of the war where, as the Russians closed on Berlin from the east, the Nazis began clearing out their concentration camps to prevent the Allies from 'finding out'; or, in many cases, the camps were overrun by the Allies.

 

The author quotes interviews with survivors, soldiers who liberated the camps, journalists, Patton, Eisenhower, and others to graphically describe the horror of the camps like Buchenwald (sp) for example.

 

None of this is exactly a surprise to me- I've read...not alot, but some on the European theater of WW2, and I'm aware of the Holocaust and the horrors of the concentration camps. I had the opportunity to visit Dachau back in 98.

 

But, this really hit me in the gut. The absolute cruelty and inhumanity of the Nazis, it defies my comprehension. I almost feel like I can't continue reading the book.

 

I put the book down last night and I sort of contemplated what I had read. And I started thinking about my gaming. I don't necessarily think one way or the other with respect to which side I game- I enjoy the intellectual challenge of playing both sides of a conflict. I don't game Europe WW2 much, I'm more of a Pacific theater guy. But, for example, I play Aces High and don't really dwell on what it means to fly a Bf-109 or drive a Panzer IV. I push counters on a board, but don't dwell on what the SS means for a particular unit.

 

I find myself questioning that decision today.

 

As wargamers, I think we can all appreciate the thought process of gaming a particular conflict from its tactical or strategic warfare perspective. We're pitting force against force. But how can I, in good conscience, game a conflict from the German side of WW2 with the goal of winning the war? How can I play a GAME that trivializes what 'really' happened to these people? By GAMING as a German, aren't I somehow, in some mental way, ....not advocating exactly, but...by winning, I'm essentially gaming a scenario that would have led to the utterly cruelty inflicted on other humans- or perhaps the extermination of an aspect of civilization.

 

It's hard to put into words exactly. I just don't know if I can continue to game from the German side in this conflict. It just doesn't feel right.

 

But then again, I'm sure this is just a visceral reaction to reading something so horrible, and that I'll get over it eventually. But today I feel kind of bad for having gamed this conflict. It's hard to articulate exactly.

 

I realize it's almost impossible to bring up something like the Holocaust without going right to R and P, but I guess I gave it a try. I'll probably start another thread in R and P that is far more controversial. I just had to get this off my chest this morning. "

 

*****************

 

Since writing that post about a year ago, I've more or less "recovered" from that feeling. I no longer have some moral objection to flying an Me-109 in Aces High, or taking up a MiG-21 in Falcon 4. My current Il-2 campaign has me flying a Japanese Ki-61.

 

But, on the same note, if my father (a Vietnam era F-4 RIO) had died or become a POW in Vietnam, I might have ALOT of problems with taking up a MiG. If half my family had been exterminated in the holocaust, I might have alot of trouble taking up a German plane today. And if my legs get blown off in Iraq, I might have trouble flying for the Arab nations in an IAF campaign.

 

Having said that, I don't have a problem with YOU flying those planes. And I don't have a problem with sims with those sides available. And...just like I don't condone stealing cars and banging hookers, I think GTA: Vice City is a hoot.

 

I have gaming lines. I'm not precisely sure where they lie. But, from a flight simming perspective, I don't really have alot of limits on who I fly for- I fly the plane I'm in the mood to fly. But, I don't join "German-only" squadrons, and I don't get TOO immersed in that side....there is a line there that I choose not to cross.

 

I DO think it's ok to bring your personal limits into video gaming and flight simming. Yes, they are games, but they simulate an experience, and it's my opinion that it is ok to find some aspects of that experience...not gamable for personal reasons.

 

Stiglr disagrees, and I look forward to his rebuttal; and the rest of your comments.

 

With respect,

Toonces

Edited December 20, 2008 by toonces

[Jeremiah Weed 0]

Having said that, I don't have a problem with YOU flying those planes. And I don't have a problem with sims with those sides available. And...just like I don't condone stealing cars and banging hookers, I think GTA: Vice City is a hoot.

 

This is the point I was making in that thread, and I think certain people might have misunderstood me. I have no problem flying for any nation, or having all sides available, but I can see why someone would not want to fly for a certain side. And for someone to say they are wrong for not wanting to fly for whatever side is just silly to me.

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

The greatest mass murder in Man's history was suffered by Native Americans, but I have no problem flying US, British, and French aircraft, or Spanish aircraft in a Spanish Civil War sim if there was one...although Charles has releaced a new SCW campaign for Thudwire sims.

 

Everybody has there own feelings and handles things in their own way. For me, flying the "enemy" as well as "friendly" is a way to explore history, and does not trivialize it, but in fact can help motivate an understanding....an understanding that is often *not* desirable from a .gov propaganda viewpoint.

 

 

When I finished my nuc mod, for a few days before uploading it, I considered deleting it all, or just keeping it for myself. But its just a computer game that can help stimulate interest in exploring history. And here it is, thousands of stories. Read them all.

 

Atomic Veterans ~> http://www.aracnet.com/~pdxavets/

[kct 5]

I do, and I don't.

 

Don't because of the relative lack of choices (still waiting for the new MiG-29A and an Su-30MKM, if ever). Do because I could simply put the TUDM roundels and finflash on a random aircraft and call it a day.

 

Also, I know one would feel bad if their own country ever did something brutal, but leave the past in the past. What has happened already happened, and we would make sure that what happened should not affect entertainment.

Edited December 20, 2008 by kct

[toonces 4]

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your replies. I'm not a "regular" combatsim.com poster.

 

I totally agree with your sentiments.

 

The Nazi regime was brutal, horrible, and I don't think any rational person can condone their actions no matter how you spin them. However, I also don't believe that being a German fighter pilot automatically made you a Nazi sympathizer. I'm a naval officer, but that doesn't mean I agree with my nation's policies 100% of the time. I do what I am ordered to do because I said I would, and I expect my Commander in Chief to give me lawful orders to be executed by my country's armed forces...but I don't have to agree with the politics/strategy/tactics behind those orders.

 

Now, moving forward from that, I will say that it is also unfair to single out one country as the "bad guys" and another as the "good guys" within reason. Surely we can all agree that the Nazi regime was horrible. But let's not be so naive to say that America is without blemish. Nobody can look upon the plight of the Native American (nor the whole slavery issue) without realizing that, yes, we Americans have warts as well.

 

No country is perfect throughout history.

 

Yet, we are faced with the history that we choose to game.

 

We cannot deny the atrocities committed by the Germans in WW2 anymore than we can deny the atrocity of slavery by the US in the 1800's. Yet, we cannot fly a flight sim based on the 1800's; we can indeed fly one based upon WW2.

 

Does flying an FW-190 exclusively make you a bad person?

 

No, I don't think so. But, I also think it is valid to NOT want to do so if you have some personal objection.

[kct 5]

Answer is pretty easy, actually. If you don't want to fly the plane because of something that happened, then don't.

[Salamander67 0]

It's a challenging question, what games one plays and how one then play them.

 

First I think it's fair to say that all are allowed to choose for themselves, I usually play for all sides in most games, just for the fun of it.

 

War is cruelty, and although it is fair to say that some regimes are more cruel than others (e.g. Nazis and Stalinist Soviet), flying for them for me does not mean I embrace their ideas.

 

However, I can imagine that I would find it rather worrying if I had a child who constantly would choose to fly for Germany or the Soviets, as it could lead to a unhealthy interest that no one knows what it would lead to. After a certain age (which is highly individual) this risk disappears (or at least diminishes), as adults knows the difference between games and history.

 

Finland is not usually included in games, but I often download some new aircrafts with the von Rosen shield in Blue and take them for a flight. In Blitzkrieg I have played the Winter War mission from the Soivet side, and I had no problem with that.

 

However, I do not usually play any FPS, because I feel that attempting to single out one person and try to kill him is over the line for me. The line is vauge, but I feel that going after an aircraft in a sim (which obviously sometimes means that the pilot & crew dies) is more acceptable, as well as letting small tanks fight it out in a RTS.

 

This is no absolute line, but I've found that for the moment it works fine for me. First and foremost it's also about the fact that in real life I'm a hunter, and owning firearms I do not want to have pictures of me shooting people in my head when I go to the range or the forest.

[FalconC45 162]

I "fly" all sides in my sims over the years. Not because the politics or nonsense like that. I "fly" all sides for the aircraft themselves and see how each side experience stuff (if modeled accurately.)

 

I play FPS' as well. I have no problem of playing as a Merc in Far Cry 2 or being an soldier in COD4 and in WW2 FPS' like Brothers in Arms games. Again for me its acting out what it was like those soldiers being in those kinds of extreme situations.

 

Falcon

 

PS. Games are fun.

[Doghouse 0]

I usually find myself flying as a third party, or a pirate or on some fictional force that never existed but wages war on both sides. My aircraft are skinned that way too, in one sim I actually flew as a pirate with a pirate's jolly roger flag, and in another with no other markings than a scorpion. I think the reason I do this is to try to piss both sides off so they'll ALL fly against me. Of course I take my share of lumps, but it's one sure fire way to impove those ACM skills in one quick hurry. The rest of the time I do fly for my country because I suppose it's patriotic to do so. Though when it comes down to it, it actually makes no difference because who's paying attention anyway. I'm certainely not.

[Rambler 1-1 9]

I always fly for the RCAF, unless it's a plane like the the F-14 or the SU-27, which has to be flown in it's native colours. However, If I get the chance I will fly a Russian or European or Israeli plane with USAF markings and loadout, mainly because I know what the american missiles' specs are, and I have no idea what the range and firing limits of a Shafir or an AA-2D or a Red Top are.

[+ST0RM 145]

If the sim allows, I will create a separate profile for another nation and fly it's aircraft using that pilot. This way, I dont get burned out on the same thing and get the build up 2 pilot's careers.

 

-Storm

[eraser_tr 29]

I look at it most like st0rm and falconCAF, it's a simulation of what it was like to be a pilot/soldier for a particular country and in flight sims, create another profile. "my" pilot I fly campaigns for the US or if its not an option, an allied nation, with the WOX comms it's certainly more natural feeling than to be flying as a french pilot and have rednecks hollering at red crown over the radio.

 

One thing I've found with games, Even when you're playing as a "bad guy" of a game, they almost always do something to offset the feeling of doing wrong. Like with operation flashpoint, a russian campaign has you switching over to help the resistance.

 

Few games let you really be despicable, and most moral choice in games tend to be too simple with one as an obvious good and another obviously bad. Bioshock, KOTOR and the fallout series throw some complex stuff at you.

[kct 5]

True, games like KOTOR tend to blur the line between the good guys and the bad guys, so that you would think that being the good guy 100% of the time is not exactly a good thing.

[Gunnar88 0]

people... what do you think of that...

we had a war about 17 years ago... many people died for nothing...

and there was 1 city that stopped the enemies main attack force...

Now, when people wish to make a game (Like CoD2) just to remember those soldiers and people...

they say (the .gov) that it is inappropriate... i SAY:

WHY THE HELL NOT!!! if the soldier who fought there said them self's that it is a good idea , why shouldn't we make such a game... so that we can, if not experience then, just to see what they were doing... the battle itself is fascinating...

1800 brothers in arms on our side, and 80.000+ soldiers, 600+ tanks and numerous aircraft and artillery units on the enemy side...

The battle lasted for 3 months... our people started to call it "Croatian Stalingrad"

On 1 of our artillery grenade, the enemy returned with 1.000 grenades... so it was a big and tough battle... And it will be an honor for those who defended it, to make an "game" to show their sacrifice... "BUT NOOOOOO" says the government... F*** such a government....

[eraser_tr 29]

17 years for a real conflict might be a bit too soon to do tastefully.

 

We've yet to have vietnam or korea done well in a game(at least outside of flight sims), and the wounds are still there from the war. Some have tried vietnam, but only the MP battlefield iteration was of any quality.

 

But in europe they're alot more strict about violence in media too.

[+Gepard 11,289]

The question is who is the "bad guy"? I think on all side of the frontline the soldiers think, that they are the good guys and the others are the bad ones.

[JediMaster 451]

I don't know, I think Vietcong was a great FPS. It gave you the feeling of being there better than any game before or since (BFV was fun, but had little atmosphere) without demonizing the VC or praising the US. It was a well-balanced portrayal, perhaps because the developers were Eastern European and had little in the way of personal feelings about it themselves?

[eraser_tr 29]

Hrm, when I was looking at it, all the reviews were fairly mediocre.

[+Dave 2,322]

I usually fly for the US or Britain (and our allies but mostly US). I just natually choose the US basically because I am an American. I prefer to fly for my country. I would suspect that if I was German, I would do the same for them and so on and so forth. Make sense? At the end of the day it is a game.

[JediMaster 451]

I'm not saying VC didn't have flaws, but mostly it was victim of when it came out. I think 6 months earlier and it would've been seen better. It wasn't anything to see visually or technically, but after the first couple of levels, if you toughed it out, you really got drawn in. Booby traps, tunnels, arty, grenades, wading waist-deep thru rivers at night, actually having a squad you could give orders too that had personalities and roles...

 

Oh, a major reason I fly for other countries is because I dislike going fantasy by flying things like US-flagged Flankers or Me-262s. I want to fly plane X, and if it was only flown by country Z, then that's who I'll fly for. Flying a 262 against He-111s is just wrong, like flying a P-51 against B-17s.

[+Brain32 265]

Personally I think anybody mixing up politics with freakin' PC game needs professional help.

I mean it's completely understandable that people prefer to fly/play for their country, it simply easier to immerse into such scenario then flying for the past/present/potential enemy.

But if reasons go beyond immersion I suggest starting extreme nacionalist political party(oh where did I hear about that one before? lol)

I also understand that it can be hard or atleast a bit controversial to play for the enemy if the conflict modelled is still "fresh", but when a mid-late 20's asshole like me that was born 40 freakin years after ww2 refuses to fly for Luftwaffe because it's "morally wrong"....I don't know what to say, that's just...distastesteful IMO

 

Just to sum it up you don't want to fly Luftwaffe because:

1. You can't immerse into it - Cool,OK

 

2. You don't like the hardware(planes) - OK

 

3. It's morally wrong - tuuuuuuuuuuu, tuuuuuuuuuuuuuu retard siren is warning us - retard presence imminent!

 

I can tell you this, in modern games I have strong preference to fly/play NATO(USAF & modern Luftwaffe especially), but in WW2 scenarios(I'm hard core IL2 player) there's nothing better than blowing to F' up that pesky Spitfire with my trusty 4-cannon FW190

Edited December 23, 2008 by Brain32

[column5 63]

3. It's morally wrong - tuuuuuuuuuuu, tuuuuuuuuuuuuuu retard siren is warning us - retard presence imminent!

 

On the one hand, its a computer game, but on the other hand if I were Jewish I might find it morally repugnant to fight for the Nazis even in a sim.

[Silverbolt 104]

On the one hand, its a computer game, but on the other hand if I were Jewish I might find it morally repugnant to fight for the Nazis even in a sim.

 

I Do

[+Brain32 265]

On the one hand, its a computer game, but on the other hand if I were Jewish I might find it morally repugnant to fight for the Nazis even in a sim.

 

OK you do have a point here, but I can tell you through years of expirience with online play of il2 series, I flew with Israeli squads a lot, equally - on BOTH sides. Most of them were around my age and just like me they didn't see it like revenge for Nazi crimes(which I still think is quite silly) but simply as competition and having fun, we flew axis together many times, those guys on average are pretty good virtual pilots I must add :)

I have a good buddy from Israeli flight sim community, he or any of them did prefer to fly allied but wouldn't blink an eye before hopping into virtual FockeWulfs or Messerschmits...

Anyway I think it's pretty interesting they were so open minded, while in the same time over the years I met some people(of NON jewish heritage) that indirectly called all that even considered flying Axis(in a freakin game ww2) a piece of human trash not to mention how many times was I called a neonazi!!!

 

That's why maybe my post sounded harsh...

[Salamander67 0]

I have a good buddy from Israeli flight sim community, he or any of them did prefer to fly allied but wouldn't blink an eye before hopping into virtual FockeWulfs or Messerschmits...

Anyway I think it's pretty interesting they were so open minded, while in the same time over the years I met some people(of NON jewish heritage) that indirectly called all that even considered flying Axis(in a freakin game ww2) a piece of human trash not to mention how many times was I called a neonazi!!!

 

Well, I'm certainly with you on the part about the fact that one should be able to choose freely about what to play. If one likes the Bf 109 or Fw 190, then let them fly for the Luftwaffe!

 

However, as well as being allowed to do that without being called a neonazi, one should also be free to choose not to play for Lw (or any other force), without being yelled at.

 

We all see these things differently, and I think that is the way it should be.