We are all a bunch of sycophants!

[kct 5]

I would actually say that SF and Wo* is like Ace Combat (but with better game play etc.) for PC. In the sense that there's enough variety and something for everyone.

[+Dave 2,319]

I would actually say that SF and Wo* is like Ace Combat (but with better game play etc.) for PC. In the sense that there's enough variety and something for everyone.

 

I would never compare it to Ace Combat. Ace Combat is an arcade game, with no fidelity to real life at all. My son plays Ace Combat 6 all the time and I can't stand it. Now that is just a game. But I do understand you comparison to the variety it offers.

[column5 62]

Awww, they deleted my s**t-cannon picture.

[+whiteknight06604 932]

Awww, they deleted my s**t-cannon picture.

 

Good it was making me crave caramel pudding.

[kct 5]

I would never compare it to Ace Combat. Ace Combat is an arcade game, with no fidelity to real life at all. My son plays Ace Combat 6 all the time and I can't stand it. Now that is just a game. But I do understand you comparison to the variety it offers.

 

And to be honest I would never play any single Ace Combat game at all. Due to the fact that I don't own (and won't own) a console, plus having WoE around in a laptop is more fun as long as I can find a space to plug the power somewhere.

 

Plus it irks me if people were using AC as their source of information for planes.

Edited January 28, 2009 by kct

[column5 62]

Good it was making me crave caramel pudding.

 

u r a nasty-man....

[Fubar512 1,350]

Awww, they deleted my s**t-cannon picture.

 

Well, you can always find an appropriate video to post, and then claim that it's a clip of Stiglr performing the dance of the flaming asshole.

[+EricJ 3,994]

I would actually say that SF and Wo* is like Ace Combat (but with better game play etc.) for PC. In the sense that there's enough variety and something for everyone.

 

Ace Combat is perhaps as stated a limited game in a different scale and purpose. WOX series... I can't say it's the greatest, by far not LOMAC, however the amount of aircraft available and the ability to add them is a feature, and as Dave pointed out in the Frugal's topic, it's all on the modder, not just the sim itself. Yes of course there's always things that can be improved, but being deployed... I felt it was better to get WOI rather than LOMAC. I'll always be a fan of LOMAC, but with a hardcoded everything (okay not everything) it's fairly limiting to only skins. Sure I can't 3d model, but to me it's fun to create a retarded GBU-12 than waiting on a non-existant SDK, while TK throws us the bone and says "go play". Besides the community here is pretty cool so I'll stick with the WOX series for awhile.

[+Gunrunner 313]

"und mein Führer ist Dave" just wouldn't sound right...

Edited January 28, 2009 by Gunrunner

[+Dave 2,319]

"und mein Führer ist Dave" just wouldn't sound right...

 

OMG That's funny as hell.

[Lt. James Cater 62]

Well, I had a read and I must say this fellow is the exact sort of gamer (yes gamer, they are games) that has nearly killed flight siming. They set the standards and bars so high that attempts by newcomers that have real lives and aren't willing to devote their nights to memorizing the exact operating procedures for a specific system will fall short for obvious reasons of disinterest. It also breeds a sort of elitism that is so vile I can't even utter the name Falcon 4 without making is sound like a curse word.

 

In comparison we have the community here. We have all types of gamers and fans here. Veterans, active duty, kids with aspirations, grown up kids, normal gamers. And I have never seen anyone on her has vapid and horrid as that Stiglr fellow. We promote the sim, we make it better, we make it bigger, we increase the accuracy, we dream with it, and we're accepting to newcomers. Its like night and day compared to those serious "simulation" communities. And I wouldn't rather be anywhere else.

 

Thats why i so love TW games.

 

I get to do what i've been reading about since i was a kid. Anyone who has been around at the dawn of PC flight sims knows that these games were nothing more than the wildest fantasies back then. To be able to do all this without having to memorize dozens of key combos and sequences is a massive relief.

 

Take armor sims for example... as any ex-Tanker can tell you, there is a whole lot of things have have to be done in perfect step by all four crewman just to put a single round downrange. Anyone want to have to do it all by yourself in a sim? Can you imagine how many buttons and mouse clicks you would have to do?

 

Would you have a satisfying time? I doubt it!

 

Lite sim hell! TW games are simply minimal overelaboration.

[TX3RN0BILL 3]

StigIR... heck, I only remember his name from clashing with him in this forum somewhere... well, hope he's gotten the full "Eel, LazerCats & Co " treatment - ending up in him being put in the fishtank perspective... Good riddance I say! And... Dave's Sycophants, HOAH!

Edited January 28, 2009 by TX3RN0BILL

[column5 62]

Lite sim hell! TW games are simply minimal overelaboration.

 

That's a good point. TW sims strip out all the frantic masturbation and get right to the happy ending.

[+Dave 2,319]

Oh I see Stiglr posting, I got to see this.... I need to head to the CP but it can wait a few. This should be good.

[column5 62]

Oh I see Stiglr posting, I got to see this.... I need to head to the CP but it can wait a few. This should be good.

 

LOL put national security on hold to see what Stiggy has to say!

[+Dave 2,319]

LOL put national security on hold to see what Stiggy has to say!

 

Its good to be in the Reserves, seems we aren't in as much as of a hurry as the active duty folks.

[Guest Stiglr]

 

Touched a NERVE, I'd say.

 

I can address 90% of the posts above with this statement:

 

The personal attacks, attempts at psychoanalysis and testosterone-laden rants from most of you just prove my point: you fanboi guys are incapable of looking at yourselves truthfully, or your sim. Most of you don't say a word about the points I bring up, just go straight to the attacks (which of course, the moderators allow; if I were to sink to that level, they'd leap on that excuse to wield the ban stick, like they do on SimHQ); but sorry, I'm not gonna go there. I can skewer you all without foul language, graphics or schoolyard-level invective.

 

If you guys would lend as much effort into the flight models and the production of pits as you put into creating sarcastic graphics and little avatar sig slogans, you might actually improve this system!

 

===============================================

To those who do actually stick to point:

 

Many of you refer to that misguided "It's either Falcon 4 and a 500-page manual or it's sim lite" line of thought and attribute it to me. I'll repeat: I'm not the rivet counter you might think I am. One can create a "survey sim" level of thoroughness and completeness without reverting to Falcon's 'rivet-counting' level of detail. You can have, for example, [more] complex engine management without having to faithfully recreate the startup sequence of each engine with keyboard commands.

 

I notice none of you answered my charge that the modders in this community were starting projects like F-15s and such without even checking to see if the code could support that aircraft's avionics. Proof positive that the modus operandi here is putting the cart before the horse, and that accuracy is simply not respected or strived for, let alone understood. Making a plane look like that plane is simply the beginning of "getting it right".

 

As I've already said, there's a lot of gray between those extremes. Having and expecting at least a dedicated pit for an aircraft type (and not necessarily a separate one for each mark or variant) is not too much to ask or expect, just in terms of doing a job right. Pits can and have been imported into your system, so you know it can be done. It's simply cutting corners to routinely turn out scads of "new aircraft" and not do a complete job in the interest of "just having another plane to point to."

 

To those of you who go to the "so, how many of these planes have YOU flown" red herring argument... level that one at TK, too, and see how stupid it is. Few of us have flown ANY of these planes in real life. But the data to give us more than a "WAG" does exist, as do detailed flight tests and accounts from those who DID fly them. The point is, a lot of the work to get even that level of accuracy isn't done here: once any difficulty is encountered in the effort to get it right, it's "shrug, say sim-lite, and it's all forgiven."

 

I know most of you can't debate any of these points intelligently or with any semblance of maturity; you'll all post what you post and I'll ignore you as the absolute proof of fanboi-ism that you are. To those of you who do want to carry on a discussion, feel free.

[+Dave 2,319]

If you guys would lend as much effort into the flight models and the production of pits as you put into creating sarcastic graphics and little avatar sig slogans, you might actually improve this system!

 

See I told you he wasn't paying attention.

 

[+suhsjake 11]

If hes not happy with thirdwire stuff, why doesn't he try to learn to improve it like the rest of us are?

 

@Dave, LOL.

[+Typhoid 231]

stiglr,

 

permit me, as one who HAS flown some of these for real, to point out that there are quite a few real pilots and flight officers who enjoy this sim. Its fun. Its a commercial success. It has a following and a community here who actually do

 

"lend as much effort into the flight models and the production of pits "

 

and make this a pretty fun and enjoyable hoby. If I want precision and realism down to complete mission planning, pre-flight, exact replication, post-flight, etc. - then I'll go to work.

 

That you do not is fine, your choice.

 

If you don't like this sim or this group - fine. Go someplace else. Its a free-market and (still) a free country and world.

 

but don't go play sour grapes on some other forum and bad-mouth a group who are doing just fine without you. If you like something else - go off and do that. You do not need to wage warfare on us.

 

just go away and be silent. You are irrelevant.

 

good by

[+Dave 2,319]

Now on a serious note. I am not going to even answer any of your crap because Stiglr, you don't f***ing get it. You never have and you never will. Its been explained to you over and over and over and over again but you still don't get it. And instead of saying ah ok I see your side of it, you insist that we have it all wrong and you are the superior one. You don't even fly the sim, instead you go on this tirades in front of your computer and jerk yourself off because of the negative attention you are getting. You love it. Did your momma and papa not give you enough attention growing up? Or did you spent too much time a gym locker in high school? You are a basket case and very very disturbed. You need to seek help from a mental health technician for your ADD and your lack of, no grasp of concepts that are not in agreement of your own. No one want to reply to your "charges" because you refuse to see any middle ground. We have fun with our hobby and it pisses you off to no end. We understand, you don't like it, do go away and play with your Targetware. We don't go over there and mess with you, I think you can extend us the same courtesy.

[+Gunrunner 313]

As if the Mirage Factory wasn't sitting on dozens of planes because they don't reach release standard or the engine doesn't allow for some functions yet...

 

As if the aerodynamics were not the only one out there (for a combat sim) with zero scripting and only minimal cheats for AI planes...

 

As if there weren't dozens of pits, carefully researched, including for soviet fighters...

 

You, sir, are talking out of your ass...

 

Usually you research first, then open your mouth... by forgetting the first step you only expose yourself to ridicule.

Edited January 28, 2009 by Gunrunner

[+SkippyBing 8]

I notice none of you answered my charge that the modders in this community were starting projects like F-15s and such without even checking to see if the code could support that aircraft's avionics.

 

Err.. actually they are supported, although I notice people are developing mods for Targetware that they must know aren't supported by the code.

 

The point is, a lot of the work to get even that level of accuracy isn't done here:

 

Ignoring the cockpit red herring which you keep throwing around, give us some concrete examples of aircraft whose flight model is woefully lacking in accuracy. It is after all a flight sim, so if the aircraft doesn't fly like the one it's supposed to that's a downer, the cockpit I can live with as I know from experience what a bitch they can be to make. And incidentaly the aircraft I tried in Targetware didn't have the greatest cockpits, sure they may have been for the aircraft depicted, but it'd be nice if the instruments were more than static bitmaps.

 

But the data to give us more than a "WAG" does exist, as do detailed flight tests and accounts from those who DID fly them.

 

Seriously you read other peoples posts or just spout your default rant every time you log on, a number of aircraft available here have been tested by people who DID fly them and they've found them satisfactory. Here's an idea, install the latest patch, download some of the better add-ons and stop basing your opinions on three year old versions of the sim, I'd recommend anything from the Mirage Factory for starters.

[Caesar 305]

Stiglr, tell me presicely the F-14A, B and D's max performance turn, in degrees/sec and G, at 5000 feet at 55,800lbs with 4 AIM-9 and 4 AIM-7 loaded. I'm willing to bet you don't know the answer. I do, and I do because I have the same manuals that are used to create the FMs, which are official Navy tables used by their pilots. (01-F14AAA(P)-1 and -1-1, respectively). But even those don't cover the aircraft's full envelope, or abilities exploited by legendary pilots like "Snort," "Heater," "Hoser."

 

And if you think that any of the games you play other than the TW series (LOMAC, F4) are "sims" you are wrong. They are GAMES, all of them are because none can adequately simulate the aircraft that are in them to be considered actual simulations. They can't cover everything a real simulator can, also, because a lot of modern systems are still classified either Secret or Top Secret. So to be honest, even in LOMAC and F4, you're just flying something that LOOKS like an F-15, -16, or MiG-29, but isn't really a good representation.

 

You look for a degree of accuracy that you assume are in other GAMES that can only be had by flying the real aircraft. The fact that modding groups like TMF for ThirdWire actually use -1 manuals to get a good representation of flight characteristics is proof that you are wrong. They are the same manuals used to make FMs for other sims, because they are the official (unclass) documents. Why don't you start bitching and moaning about those games? They sure as s*it don't have fully accurate FM's, avionics, jamming, etc.

[+Dave 2,319]

The problem with that Skippy is he wont but say he will and he will find something negative to say about them even if he actually did. In his eyes, no matter how you slice it, we are wrong. He's been going on like this for 6 freakin' years. All will be fine for a period of time, then he shows up, causes turmoil then disappears for another period of time, and laughs about all the attention he is getting. He is a sociopath and of the worst kind, the internet kind. Where he can sit in safety at his computer at home knowing there isn't a whole lot we can do about it. He thrives off this kind of attention. Its his fix, and he is getting it right now.