DM: just right after 1.28?

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Since Phase 3 is wrapping up, and it is unlikely that there will be any further substantial changes to BHaH, I thought I would ask a question to get some feedback from players about the damage model for Phase 4 or whatever version of OFF the good people at OBD choose to come up with. Here is the question: What do you think about the damage model after patch 1.28? Is it just right, too easy, or too hard? I lean towards thinking the DM is just about right, or maybe slightly too easy (but not much). What do you think? If you could improve the DM, what would you do?

 

Note to Winder, Pol, OvS, and others at OBD: It is not my intention to criticize BHaH or any of the massive number of improvements you have made to OFF, including changes to the DM. Just thought it would be interesting to do a quasi-scientific poll on player attitudes towards the DM. If you feel this poll is inappropriate in any way, it will not hurt my feelings one bit if you ask me to delete it.

Edited March 15, 2009 by Herr Prop-Wasche

[Creaghorn 10]

hi,

IMHO too easy.

[+Winder 32]

hi,

IMHO too easy.

 

1.28a will be uploaded soon and it addresses a few tweaks in the claims confirmations - in addition there will be a few options packs going up:

 

1) Lower res maps to help players with lower end GPUs.

 

2) Hardcore DM pack (as mentioned before on SOH) and of course a DM pack that is as i.e 1.28 so that you guys can swap as you see fit.

 

3) No there will not be a setting in workshops to swap DM - it will be an optional install and yes you can swap between the two (1.28 and Hardcore) via install software.

 

Oh and yep that is the wrap on features for P3 as mentioned elsewhere - we will continue with database and I guess planning for the future!

 

Cheers

 

HTH

 

WM

[tn_prvteye 36]

I voted much too easy...but I feel sorry for Pol/Winder/et.al...I mean, damn...we're a picky bunch! "It's TOO hard....waaaaaah!!!" "Now it's TOO easy...waaaaaaahhh!"

 

I must admit that I've gone back to 1.25. I like the DM the best in that version...my personal opinion only. Might not be the most realistic, but I have the most fun with it.

 

Ohhh...just read Winder's post...YIPPEEE!!!

 

That rocks...I can now truly say I'm "hardcore".... :)

Edited March 15, 2009 by tn_prvteye

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Thanks, Winder. Love the sim, love the developers! Well, maybe love is too strong a word. More like, I am quite fond of the developers?? :blush2:

Edited March 15, 2009 by Herr Prop-Wasche

[Cpt.Kremmen 0]

Too easy in my opinion too. If it were possible to make enemy plane's "target areas " smaller DM would be ok.

Otherwise this is the best sim I've ever flown.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Ha, ha. Yes, my mother was always going on about how picky I am! Guess where I got it from? Her, of course.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Yeah, the DM for Big Ben does stink! This sim sucks!!! :cray: :cray:

[Wels 2]

Hello Winder,

 

this is a good option. I have to say i did not vote here, because the question is somehow not to the point - there are different planes which have (or so i think) different damage models, so it is not so easy to vote.

 

I think the current dm is quite realistic, if a bit too hard for the Eindecker, not much experience with other planes yet. But following a two seater one shot in the engine is enough, engine coughing, and down you go. As well a few shots in the wings and the plane instantly becomes soo hard to fly - but there was seldomly a cable, or a lever/link damaged, most shots just went through the fabric and that was it.

 

To the DID and "realistic" folks: I do not think that a sim should be unnecessarily or unrealistic hard, to make it look right for some people - it should be as close to reality as it really was, not how simmers feel it should be - hope s.o. understands what i mean lol. If it WAS easy to get a kill with an SE5a, or a Camel, or a certain plane compared to its prey, it should be modelled that way in the sim - "simple" as that.

I am certainly aware that this is not "simple" at all, since none of us ever flew such a craft in reality, let alone in combat - this is all written stories and hearsay, together with the raw data of the planes' capabilities regarding service ceiling, climbing abilities a.s.o., and trying to put all this into an electronic simulation. So i take it Winder's proposal will most probably be the best of both worlds -

 

Thanks and greetings,

Catfish

[Creaghorn 10]

sorry, winder, for many of us beeing such crybabies, me including.

i want it to be as the nearest to the average real life a pilot had, as possible. and IMHO if i have 20 kills in 18h, for me something is wrong. if it would be that easy, every pilot who survived the war, must have been an ace with 100+ kills. i am just trying for me to get a kill as hard as i can. if i hit an aircraft in the first pass, and hit something important, the plane should instantly go down. that's fine. but if i don't hit important parts, just canvas, then i should waste all my ammo without the plane going down.

i like the idea of swapping the DM files. your support is awesome, as always. when i am using the "hard" dm, will the great effects still be there (spinning down, exploding engines, torn off wings)? only after more hits taken? or will it reduce the effect immensly, like it was prior to the newest patch?

[Hellshade 110]

I think the ability to swap DMs is fantastic, that way BHaH has something to appeal to everyone interested in a WWI flight sim. Personally, I enjoy the fact that it's easy to shoot down planes, especially when I know my plane is just as easy to get shot down. It means I have to pay attention constantly to make sure nobody gets on my 6 or stays there long. Combat is fast and furious and I never feel like I can just relax. As long as there is even one enemy craft in the sky, I know I am at risk of being shot down so I can't take anything for granted.

 

I know some people say the current DM makes the game too easy, but I wonder if they have the "Radar" up so they can always see who is around them. Without the radar, you could be shot down before you even saw the enemy aircraft dive down behind you. Isn't that how it really was? True, my cables seem to get hit 100% of the time when I am shot, reducing my manueverability and that seems a bit too harsh but I just use it to make myself try harder to never, ever get hit. I seem to recall one of the patches was supposed to "strengthen cables". They seem weaker, to be honest. But whatever. It's by far the greatest flight sim I've ever played and even one of the greatest games along with Oblivion, Neverwinter Nights and World of Warcraft. There is enough here to keep me interested for years!

 

Not that I expect you to tip your hand, but I hope the sudden stop in patches is because you guys landed a deal with a big developer to get to work on creating something even better. No doubt you all have the talent, persistance, passion and skill that it takes to make a world class flight sim, so I wouldn't be suprised if somebody took notice of your work and made you all a great offer. Regardless, I wish you all the best!

 

Hellshade

[+Polovski 457]

This is the problem everyone has an opinion but may have wildly varying settings, PCs, skills.

 

Also there are two problems that clash. Realistic Damage/Kills versus Realistic Number of Kills

 

As has been said many times, we have all many 1000's of virtual hours flying. The poor guy in WW1 with maybe 10 /12 hours flying in another type then being told to go fly over the lines in a Camel the one that's killed as many in training as in combat.

 

With 1 life, you would not engaged mostly certainly not prolonged as we do. So many many variables.

 

If the DM was absolutely perfect and matched real conditions absolutely exactly, you would still get the wrong kill tally as you are too skilled, and have infinite virtual lives to play with reducing your fear and forces interfering with that process by a vast amount.

 

In game with no labels, no warp, and no radar etc, you will not last long enough to get 100 kills that's the point as you will as we all do switch off looking around whilst struggling to stay in formation, or checking your map or whatever.

 

Don't fly with Warp if you want to get the odd realistic surprise from above ;)

[Rick Rawlings 136]

This is the problem everyone has an opinion but may have wildly varying settings, PCs, skills.

 

With no labels radar etc, you will not last long enough to get 100 kills that's the point. Also as has been said many times, we ahave all many 1000's of virtual hours flying. The poor guy in WW1 with maybe 10 /12 hours flying in another type then being told to go fly over the lines. With 1 life, you would not engaged mostly certainly not prolonged as we do. Many many variables. If the DM was absolutely perfect and match real conditions exactly, you would still get the wrong kill tally as you are too skilled, and have infinite virtual lives to play with reducing your fear.

 

 

With this in mind, I'd say it's just about right, perhaps just a touch too easy. I don't even open fire until I am right behind them and dumping rounds right into the cockpit. Now with a good 5 second burst and a hit percentage in the mid 30%s, they go down. Before 1.26, I would have to do this several times to drop a scout. Snap shots still need several bursts to do anything.

 

Here's for OFF 4 and maybe a catchier title, like Ninja Death Gods of Skull-Crushing War, or something :)

 

RR

[Hellshade 110]

In game with no labels, no warp, and no radar etc, you will not last long enough to get 100 kills that's the point as you will as we all do switch off looking around whilst struggling to stay in formation, or checking your map or whatever.

 

Don't fly with Warp if you want to get the odd realistic surprise from above ;)

 

A valid point Pol. I just started flying with no radar and my new favorite phrases seem to be "Where the F--- did he go?!?" and "Where the F--- did he come from?!?" I doubt very seriously many of us would get more than 17 hours flight time with true "Dead is Dead" settings, especially if it was our first time flying in combat. No auto mixture, no auto rudder, no warp, no radar, hard settings for all guns, etc. Seriously, if I need to make the game any more realistic at this point I'll put a huge high speed box fan on my desk, turn the temperature in my house down to 0 degrees and have my wife shoot me with a pellet gun every time my pilot gets hit. I'm good. And with no disrespect ment to any other WWI flight sim developers out there, I don't see anything better currently on the market or hitting the shelves anytime soon. Thanks for a fantastic WWI flight sim. I hope you sell a million copies.

 

Hellshade

[Rooster89 0]

I voted "just right". I couldn't agree more with Pol and some of you others. There is just way too many variables to get it absolutely as it was in WW1. We are all virtual aces from playing combat flight sims for a decade or more. It would be hard to make the game so hard so that its like we were all greenhorns at the front. However if you let someone play the game that is new to a combat flight sim its exactly this way, I let my friend play whose never flown a flight sim before and he got shot down in flames in an SE5a by a Fok. E.III.

Eh...Im rambling

 

In short OFF is as real as it gets....unless you have a time machine.

 

-Rooster

[aust3298 0]

Thanks Winder, good idea for the optional DM. Here's to the future and to the past and all the fun provided by OBD.

[Rooster89 0]

That's the problem today, if you make it easy . . the DID crowd complains. If you make it tough . . we cheaters complain, you can't win

So do as you think is right, as long as the Mrs. doesn't complain of a headache, anything OBD does, will be soon forgotten

 

PS . . Made a copy of Preview #5 . . . The Morane Saultier . . exists somewhere

 

 

Just watched it. I forgot about that! So they have been hiding a Bristol Bullet in the back hangers eh?

 

-Rooster

[Pips 5]

and have my wife shoot me with a pellet gun every time my pilot gets hit. I'm good. Hellshade

 

I just broke up when I read that Hellshade!! I can just see now all the wives and girlfriends lining up by the doorway taking aim. Man, we'd end up looking like swisscheese. :yes:

[catch 81]

PS . . Made a copy of Preview #5 . . . The Morane Saultier . . exists somewhere

 

Probably not Unc. But I'm sure the Morane Saulnier does .... it may be a mere twinkle in Pol's eyes at the moment but I'm sure consumation will take place at the appropriate moment. He just needs some privacy

 

Back to topic. I only loaded 1.28 over the weekend straight over 1.25 ..... missed out on 1.26 and hotfix and whatever else there was. Put it down to real life disruptions . Change is really rapid around here. I dips me lid to those OBD boys. Truly remarkable.

 

1.28 looks very good to me so far. However, I've only flown 2 campaign missions to date so too early to pass comment. And that was primarily to add a few scenes to my "Railyard Attack" video (most of which was done in 1.25) so I wasn't really analysing anything except to get some nice clips. In any event, OFF BH&H as it stands now surely is the best flight sim experience (of any era) anyone can have .... with or without trousers.

 

Hmmm did I actually say that out loud ?

[Fortiesboy 3]

I think the ability to swap DMs is fantastic, that way BHaH has something to appeal to everyone interested in a WWI flight sim. Personally, I enjoy the fact that it's easy to shoot down planes, especially when I know my plane is just as easy to get shot down. It means I have to pay attention constantly to make sure nobody gets on my 6 or stays there long. Combat is fast and furious and I never feel like I can just relax. As long as there is even one enemy craft in the sky, I know I am at risk of being shot down so I can't take anything for granted.

 

I know some people say the current DM makes the game too easy, but I wonder if they have the "Radar" up so they can always see who is around them. Without the radar, you could be shot down before you even saw the enemy aircraft dive down behind you. Isn't that how it really was?

 

I agree wholeheartedly with the first part -thanks Winder.

 

And I agree with the second paragraph. If you pump many bullets into a plane something will give.

They all will not go thru the canvas. If you have to have virtually invincible enemies in order to determine your ability to get to 17 hours, then that isn't realistic, IMHO.

And my experience is that with no labels, no TAC, no HUD, no padlock- but flying with full cockpit, then this isn't an easy sim.

Those that say it is must be "ubermen"

[Todt Von Oben 0]

It's been said: "Don't fly with Warp if you want to get the odd realistic surprise from above ;)"

 

Yup. Just warped into a furball in my 10th campaign mission and that was all she wrote.

 

Back to the Topic: I'm happy with the game as it is after the 1.28 patch. I think Workshops gives you the option to set difficulty and damage where you like.

 

It's not too predictable, though. The AI can be fiendishly unexpected: like what just happened on my tenth (and last) mission.

 

Some times I score a quick shot to the pilot and down he goes. Or I might shoot the plane to pieces with good bursts in the right places. But some times it's still a lot of bullets through canvas without much effect, and I'd expect all of those situations would occasionally be the case in reality. So I think it's about right.

 

Great Game, Guys!

 

Prost!

 

TvO

Edited March 16, 2009 by Todt Von Oben

[themightysrc 5]

I haven't voted yet, because the last campaign was in an EIII (difficult to fly, doubt I hit very much and he snuffed it anyway it a freak knitting accident) and the current one is in a BE2c (spend most of my time looking for EIIIs, then I run away as quickly as possible).

 

Once I'm through this masochistic streak, I'll try a sensible aircraft and see what all this dogfighting mularkey's all about. Probably.

[Gous 0]

I voted for a little too easy but then I changed my mind and now I want to vote for "just right" LOL

I recently read Winged Warfare by Billy Bishop 72-kill ace. According to him, when he was shooting under 60 yards, the enemy never needed more than 40 rounds to get down out of control spinning, wings ripped etc. etc. So the DM is just right IMHO.

 

The only objection I have against the patch that changed the DM is this:

Before changing the DM, the aircraft were very tough. Very very tough. And they could withstand immense amount of damage. This caused the big dogfights (with 8 aircraft and above), to last even 20 minutes. Now, with the newer DM, the models cant withstand much damage, and the dogfights now last 5 minutes tops for me... I dont know if its possible for the dogfights, with the current DM, to last more than 15 minutes...It would be nice to see that. But can it be done?

 

Anyway I think that the DM is just right now, but the "hardcore" DM option is pretty nice. Cheers

Edited March 16, 2009 by Gous

[CaptSopwith 23]

1.28a will be uploaded soon and it addresses a few tweaks in the claims confirmations - in addition there will be a few options packs going up:

 

1) Lower res maps to help players with lower end GPUs.

 

2) Hardcore DM pack (as mentioned before on SOH) and of course a DM pack that is as i.e 1.28 so that you guys can swap as you see fit.

 

3) No there will not be a setting in workshops to swap DM - it will be an optional install and yes you can swap between the two (1.28 and Hardcore) via install software.

 

Oh and yep that is the wrap on features for P3 as mentioned elsewhere - we will continue with database and I guess planning for the future!

 

Cheers

 

HTH

 

WM

 

Winder,

 

I just wanted to say thanks for all of the hard work. I personally love the DM as of the 1.26 patch. I have yet to fly 1.28. Like a certain OvS back in the day, you guys are releasing patches and fixes faster than I can play them! That said, I think the idea of having a choice between a hardcore DM and the new varient is a fantastic idea - I know I certainly appreciate it.

 

Just wanted to say that I have never seen a group of developers offer so many options to their sim, nor release so many updates as quickly as you have for a product that essentially worked out of the box. Usually a team releases this many fixes because something is horribly wrong - not because they are perfecting and adding features!

 

Thank you, you have all done a fantastic job, IMHO.

 

As we used to say back in the RBII days: Salute!