P3 Current Status and the future of OFF

[+Winder 32]

Hey thanks guys - rest assured we are not leaving or anything - we are just announcing the fact that P3 is drawing to a close now and we have not formulated any firm rollout plans for P4 and or addon packs.

 

We will announce in due course as we proceed!

 

Best

 

 

WM

[Wels 2]

Hello,

 

first thanks for the update. The points you made to be included in the next patch are 100 percent spot-on. You really listen to your customers !

OFF is the most accurate WW1 sim flying around, and it will even get better with more planes filling up some squadrons with the appropriate planes at the right times. I am certainly aware that there is some more work to do than designing a plane - lots of skins, changing with the time along with moving frontlines and shifting aerodromes .. but it would be great to have some more plane types.

 

Hmm so no fireworks sales-wise ? Well since you even said it is more a work of historical interest and fascination (i can only agree 100 percent here) maybe the marketing aspect has been neglected a bit. Only some rough ideas ..

Offering secure downloads (via Paypal paying) will probably win some more people.

Malking the game accessible via direct buying from real shops also would boost the sales, however i do not know what has to be legally done to make this possible.

Then advertising ! Advertising and again advertising. Make the sim known, to universities with interest in history as well as to the flight simming communtity. Talk abot the flight models and how accurate they are. Ask real pilots what they think of OFF. Maybe produce a book (or pdf?) that explain the planes in OFF, maybe with historical context, and sell this separately.

 

I still think the main backdraw is

a) it is necessary to have the MS CFS3 disk (cannot be changed without big further effort i know)

b) You have to wait relatively long to get the sim, and the CFS3 disk - this online business is so "indirect" - no direct grabbing, paying, playing.

c) The sim is still not well-known, ok some sim community websites have a short report, but there are still people around who love WW1 flight sims but never heard from OFF - spread the word - did i say advertising ..

 

Make known, state and tell people other reasons why it is a good idea to buy the sim: support - care - development etc. etc. And be friendly even to the "worst demands" - stay friendly and keep calm. I know you have every right to be unnerved by impossible demands and the strangest accusations - but still keep calm and friendly. Reagading real issues or impossible features: Communicate WHY some features are not possible, or not at this moment.

 

I will also try to spread the word, but it is clear i do not reach too much people. I wish you and us luck with the development, and the sim moving forward :yes:

 

Thanks and greetings,

Catfish

[tttiger 0]

Winder,

 

(Long message follows, go get some tea):

 

First of all, you guys have created a fantastic sim/game. I will happily buy any add-ons you offer.

 

My criticism in some other threads (realism percentages, etc.) are really in the nature of nit-picking. The product itself stands with any commercial sim (and I've flown many over the past 15 years or so).

 

It's a product you guys deserve to be very proud of.

 

But (there it is!)....

 

There's a reason there aren't (and haven't been) many WWI sims out there. It's a very small, niche market. Flight sims, overall, are in decline.

 

So don't take the lack of sales as an indicator. Especially since you lack a major publisher to help promote it. And you don't appear to have the "working capital" a MUST in any business of any size to buy advertising or do any real marketing.

 

Publishers have avoided WWI because there just aren't that many customers out there.

 

Problem is, because you offer only off line play, you are shooting for a niche within an already small niche.

 

There also seems to be an interesting "split" in the WWI flight sim community between OFF and ROF. Some of us support both and will fly both but for many it's an either- or- choice.

 

The difference, as I see it, is off line single player versus on line multiplayer.

 

OFF seems to be most attractive to former CFS3 and RB3D pilots (the community you developers came from).

 

On the ROF forums, I see many names I know from the old Dawn of Aces and IL2.

 

Dawn of Aces was a totally on line MMP WWI sim with great flight models and crappy scenery with some VERY good pilots who used to kill me quite regularly. I see the names of several old DoA pals in the ROF forums. Knowing them the way I do, they would not even consider a sim without a strong online component.

 

The same also is true of former IL2 pilots. IL2 had a single player campaign but it was crap (although their marketing studies showed more poeple flew IL2 off line than on line).

 

IL2 had a large on line community and you can fly in Coops (my favorite) either single mission or campaign or dogfight arenas.

 

I don't know what it's like today but a few years ago on HyperLobby on weekends at any given moment there were 1,000 IL2 players on HyperLobby with more waiting to get in (1,000 was their limit). That's a whole source of potential customers who look at OFF, say, "Oh, OFF means off line only," and pass it by.

 

I can tell you from long experience (I gave up on IL2 about two years ago after playing it since its beginning) that the IL2 community looks on CFS3 with complete disdain. Everything about CFS3 was and is considered inferior (and rightfully so, in my opinion as well).

 

I had to swallow hard to get past that prejudice myself. I couldn't believe I was ordering CFS3 to play OFF.

 

But I love WWI aviation and yours was the only game in town.

 

So, with that long windy prologue, here are my suggestions:

 

1. Include a copy of CFS3 with every copy of OFF you sell (and I wouldn't raise the current price to do that).

 

It's very clumsy for a new customer to have to go to one source for OFF and a totally different source for CFS3. In fact, it's VERY poor marketing. Sell them both as a package deal.

 

And if folks like me have to overcome an anti-CFS3 pejudice to buy OFF, many simply won't buy CFS3. So, give it to them. Free (or wrap the cost into your price).

 

2. If you don't build an on-line component to OFF, you're going to lose all those on-line WWI aviation fans to ROF. OFF has a really good campaign. In fact, that's its greatest strength. The on-line part of OFF is very lame (that's Microsoft, not you guys).

 

But those who want to dog fight on line (Quake in a Camel) or who want to fly Coops on line are already waiting in line at ROF and simply won't play OFF because it is really only a single-player game.

 

So, you need servers (either your own or members who will host on line play) and probably a connection with HyperLobby and OFF has to be tweaked to be more reliable on line.

 

Just my thoughts (free and worth what you paid for them: Nothing).

 

You have a brilliant product but it is tied to a dead horse (CFS3) and it really lacks an on line component that would attract a whole different crowd of customers.

 

You need to get past those two things to increase sales.

 

S!

 

Tony

Edited April 21, 2009 by tttiger

[sitting_duck 3]

I dying to see an off4, like most of us.

 

And, like most of us, want to see the devs get compensated for their efforts.

 

So take advantage of the loyalty out there, and let us pilots do whatever we can to make an off4 happen.

 

and dont take these suggestions as "off the wall", I think they are really quite good

 

First would be a BHAH calander. Anyone wishing could submit a screenshot(s), and we could vote on 13 (12 plus a coverpage). In addition,,,all you historical fanatics out there could come up with noteworthy historical tidbits of information (ie...Feb 18...such and such German Ace shot down). Take advance prepaid orders (so you dont end up with 100 calanders in someones garage),, sell it for a nice proftit, and now you have something that will genereat income every year.

 

second would be BHAH teeshirts.....ditto on the advcance prepaid orders...

 

just make sure you make xxxl available,,cause ive gained a ton of weight since i started playing this game..

[Winston DoRight 3]

Only people who have found their way here to this community are able to buy OFF. It needs to be available on Amazon.com, Go Gamer or other major software retailers. You haven't yet been exposed enough for the big sales. Advertising is key. No one will buy anything if they don't know about it. Try and make contact with the companies that will expose your product in a big way. It's better to sell 1000 copies for $39 than $100 copies for $59

 

For the record, I'd definately buy a "planes pak" if it includes the ones missing from the squad selection options in the game now.

[Rick Rawlings 130]

Jeez, will you people stop waking up so early? I thought in another thread it was mentioned that the Germans got to sleep late!??!?! Nothing left for me to add but "Here! Here!" I guess that does save me on typing, I pay for my internet connection by the keystroke... ... ...

 

Oh, and I do hope that the tracers mod is going to be added in the new patch as mentioned!

 

"Here! Here!"

 

RR

[griphos 0]

I'm with everyone else with respect to my gratitude for this labor of love, which is an almost unbelievably good simulation of WWI air combat. I continue to be surprised and pleased by aspects of this sim.

 

And I'm totally with Dej and Red-dog in terms of some sort of development subscription. Not that I'm in any hurry for a P4, 'cause it's hard to see how to improve this, but just because I would like to see this outstanding work be fully and fairly compensated.

 

I'm sorry that some of the issues (CFS3) and timing (ROF) may be working against that. Couldn't have been forseen when all this started years ago.

[steve58 0]

Have to admit, I balked at the initial $59 cost+shipping. I jumped all over the Easter sale price though (we all have our breaking point ), and I'd buy additional plane/zep packs and/or OFF P4.

 

More word of mouth/internet advertising would be good. Anyway to come up with a signature generator like Gametz has (see below)? I'm sure lots of BHaH owners post on other forums/sites and would be willing to add it to their posts eh? Maybe tie Siggi's DiD scoreboard to it?

Edited April 21, 2009 by steve58

[conrad 0]

Yep, I would definately buy more planes etc when/if they became available. Thanks to Winder and the Dev team. I have enjoyed thie sim since P1 and love it now even more.

Happy Days,

Conrad.

[Bullethead 12]

And so to the future:

 

I'll certainly buy whatever you all put out there, regardless of price.

 

As a fellow developer of niche-market games, I feel your pain. It's hard when you make the best Laphroaig in the world, but most people are afraid to try anything tastier than the much easier-to-find Glenfiddich.

[Hellshade 110]

Excellent work on this latest patch Winder. BHaH really is a top notch, polished to perfection product. Please make some more money off me by creating some add on plane packages (especially the Gothas, etc). I'd buy into a subscription as well. I'm sorry that sales aren't what you deserve. I'll just repeat a couple of points I've seen posted above that I agree with.

 

1. Find a way to bundle CFS3 with OFF BHaH for the same price.

2. If at all possible, take Olhams suggestion and see if Microsoft is willing to partner with you on this. They have been known to buy small, highly talented companies like Gas Powered Games and finance them making great products.

 

You guys rock and your game is the best WWI sim on the market. Thanks for all your support and dedication.

 

/salute

Hellshade

Edited April 21, 2009 by Hellshade

[HomeBoy 1]

Winder,

Thank you and the OFF team for a very professionally done and excellent product! The support is first rate too! I am with others who say they would buy anything you release, regardless of price!

 

As a recent convert (I studied this game for at least six months before I took off my shoes and rolled up my pants legs), may I share what took me so long to decide:

 

1. Microsoft CFS3! I REALLY didn't like the idea of an add-on to a game that I never liked. I bought CFS1 or 2 (can't remember which) and really despised it. I especially hated the interface, particularly the game controller configuration. I must admit that CFS3CONFIG is not pleasant and the controller interface reminds me why I deleted CFS from my computer and moved on. I don't have many bad things at all to say about OFF but CFS3CONFIG and that horrible control setup thing that you can only get to from an aircraft on the ground is a mouth full! Sorry about that. Just being honest.

 

2. I was afraid OFF would be a little on the arcade side the way I always felt CFS was. That's probably a little unfair. All the hacking of CFS (P51s with F-16 engines in them, etc.) just made me run in the opposite direction. Let me tell you, OFF is nothing like I expected there. This game is top quality in all respects that would ever bring the word "arcade" into the same paragraph. There is absolutely nothing arcade about OFF! That was a very pleasant surprise. Course, from all that I had read, I didn't think it was by the time I prepared to purchase.

 

3. After I realized how serious the OFF team was, I then began to be concerned that, in order to not be criticized for having "lame flight-models", the OFF team would make the flight models so hard that the game would not be fun. Well, again, very pleasantly surprised there. I think there is a wonderful compromise between "fun" and "realism" with the flight models of these ole crates. Thank you so much for that!

 

Although #1 is a pain, #2 and #3 so far outweigh it that it really is no problem for me. The CFS3 stigma was what kept me away from this game for so long though. Now, I tell all my friends (that always rolled their eyes when I told them they'll never be another RB3D) that if you're waiting for a WW1 game to sink your teeth into, OFF is prime steak!

 

Please put me on the team that does whatever they can to help make this project a success!

 

Thank you again!

-mark

[Dej 17]

I'll certainly buy whatever you all put out there, regardless of price.

 

As a fellow developer of niche-market games, I feel your pain. It's hard when you make the best Laphroaig in the world, but most people are afraid to try anything tastier than the much easier-to-find Glenfiddich.

 

Aha! Your man BH speaks fluent Scotch. I'll see your Laphroaig with my Talisker Sir, and raise you a Lagavullin. Slàinte mhòr agad!

[cptroyce 0]

Devs- I am taking off my WW1 hat..my WW1 flight sim hat..my ordinary flight sim hat..and my hobby hat..and putting on my business hat.

 

tttiger just gave you IMHO, an accurate, excellent marketing analysis of why sales and profits may be lacking.

OFF is a labor of love and so perhaps the profit side is secondary; I don't know.

 

I am "happy as a clam" with OFF as an enthusiast..but if I had investment capital as risk here I wouldn't be so at all.

 

So I don't know, what the driver is here..hobby/love..sales profit..or some combination of both.

 

It is unfortunate that OFF is so good, but that it's market is limited..perhaps MMP enhancement would be something to think about to open up the customer base ?

 

Just my 2 cents..I love OFF in any event!

 

Regards,

Royce

[Bullethead 12]

I'll see your Laphroaig with my Talisker Sir, and raise you a Lagavullin. Slàinte mhòr agad!

 

It's to be an Islay duel, eh? Geez, this is getting expensive. Nothing is nearer and dearer to my heart than 16-year Lagavulin. God Himself makes it, and the ruined castle on the premises once housed my ancestors. I know that saying this, instead of favoring such traditional Southern drinks as Jack Daniels or the local "Confederate Popskull" moonshine, will earn me a few years in Purgatory, but I'm not worried--I have to get out of Hell first

 

So, I'll call your Lagvulin with some of my own, and raise you a bunny-hoppin' Bunnahabhain and a Bowmore. And "yaki da" back at you, or however the Welsh spell it (iechyd da or some such). I'm multi-lingual when it comes to drinking.

[Macklroy 2]

Wanted to add my Cheers to the list. The OFF team has done an outstanding job on this sim. First and only real wwi flight sim ive ever played. Have to say i almost feel sorry for any game that's trying to compete with BH&H. Probably the BIGEST drawback of the game is that it's piggy-backing on an otherwise subpar flight sim in cfs3.

 

I can only immagine the wonders that would come out of a sim created from the ground up by you guys. Keep up the excellent work, you've got me as a believer now.

[catch 81]

As some have surmised, the CFS3 stigma is indeed an unfortunate one. Hard to combat that perception. In fact it's probably impossible. The only option is to port P3 onto a stand alone engine and rid itself of the link to CFS3. But this relies on very good sales so I doubt it will happen. And even if it did some would continue to say "isn't this an old cfs3 game" and continue to diss it. Perceptions die very hard. It's a sad state of affairs and I feel for the OFF devs. Love affairs are never easy.

 

Anyway what I've got now in my hard drive is simply brilliant and if it were all to stop right here right now I'd still be completely content and forever in debt to the OFF devs.

[Burning Beard 14]

One of the best ideas I saw in there was offering a copy of CFS3 with a copy of OFF, makes it more no fuss no muss.

 

I too would purchase additional aircraft etc....

 

And, it would be better if it could be made online friendly.

 

 

Beard

[Canvas Wings 1]

There's nothing more I can add that wouldn't just echo the many comments here already, guys. I only discovered OFF a month ago, but I'm now a dedicated fan. Phase 4? I'd buy it in minute. Any add on packs you come up with, ditto. Pass the hat? I'll kick in. *Make* a hat and I'll buy six. (Cuz I always lose hats.) This is the best Combat Flight Sim I've ever experienced, CFS3 not withstanding. Your support has been nothing short of phenominal. Do what ya gotta do.... but many thanks for what you have given us. Like I said on another flight sim somewhere... you have produced a classic. Kudos.

[Typhoon 5]

Mr Winder and the rest of the Devs:

OFF BHaH is simply a phenomenal sim. Words cannot accurately describe it. It has to be experienced to be fully appreciated. I subscribe to various FS magazines and to date I have not seen any mention of OFF in any of them. I'm sure that copies were sent to them for review and given the lead time required these reviews should be forthcoming. This should pique the interest of the FS community and hopefully generate more sales.

In any case you fellows have done an outstanding job of making a silk purse out of a sows ear (CFS3).

If an add-on is developed I will be first in line for it.

 

Thanks again for all your effort!!

Tony

[PD-1 3]

cfs-3 is more than a stigma Catch,

the online aspect of O.F.F. IS DEAD because of it.

phase-3 for some reason was and is an online disaster. i have produced

some missions for onliner's but no longer will fly it myself.

no need to go into it any further but the online disapointment has killed it

for me.

this sim would rule for ages to come with a proper engine for what was accomplished

over the years was an awsome job indeed. the writeing was on the wall befor the first

disk was pressed.

PD

[Test Pilot 0]

I think the best idea of increasing sales may lie simply with including CFS3. Maybe even including the required files from CFS then in the installer itself so that CFS never needs to be installed. CFS3 would certainly ship with the game so as to fulfill legal reasons of copyright and the like, but for someone just using OFF, CFS isnt really part of the install process at all. Even market the OFF DVD as including "the classic WWII combat sim". Itd be like getting a bonus sim and the casual buyer probably would hardly notice the CFS requirement for OFF. Now would MS go for that???

[catch 81]

I'm sorry to hear that PD. It's obviously very disappointing for you. My point was that (along with MP guys) many potential SP customers would be turned off purchasing P3 by the mere mention of CFS3 such is its bad rep amongst the flight sim world. It's just such a shame. A champion effort strangled by a perception.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Some very constructive comment.... tttiger's particularly so.

 

I agree with him, that ROF is waiting in line for online... and if there is anything the team can do to push the multiplayer side of the sim, they should.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

BTW.. when I just googled "WW1 Flight Simulator I got this

 

http://www.simshack.net/product_info.php?products_id=170