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Erwin_Hans

F-22J?

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Lockheed is proposing sales to Japan since US stopped buying already.

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Lockheed is proposing sales to Japan since US stopped buying already.

 

Japan's made no secret that they want to buy the F-22 and that they believe it will fulfill their future requirements more than any other aircraft currently on the market. Although it's been stated by several sources that Japan is examining the F/A-18E/F and the Rafale, they've stated that anything less than the F-22 would most probably not meet their future AF criteria and there have been a couple of Japanese agencies that stated that the Eurofighter Typhoon won't be considered as the Japanese government doesn't have faith in having to deal 4 countries and the associated bureaucracy.

 

Only problem this stance is that they've been denied every time by the US State Department(?) as exports on the aircraft and it's systems are banned and currently enshrined by law. Currently, there is no JASDF F-22, but if LM develops an export version with non-classified systems or one sufficiently capable but not too similar to the USAF, or if the US overturns the export ban, we may see one in JASDF colours real soon. Maybe Israeli colours too. They're very keen, just not about the $200+ price tag. For that matter, not too many people are...

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Here is one of the articles on it:

 

---------------------------------------

 

Yomiuri Shimbun (Japan)

June 19, 2009

 

U.S. Move To Keep F-22 May See End Of Export Ban

 

By Satoshi Ogawa, Yomiuri Shimbun Correspondent

 

WASHINGTON -- The U.S. Congress has begun discussing the possibility of lifting the embargo it imposed on sales of its F-22 military jet, a move that could pave the way for Japan to buy the state-of-the-art stealth fighter as its next mainstay combat plane, sources said Wednesday.

 

The U.S. Senate and House of Representatives have agreed to amend the supplementary budget for fiscal 2009 to incorporate an additional 45 million dollars in expenses related to the F-22 Raptor jet--including research and development costs.

 

Although revising the budget does not necessarily mean lifting the embargo on F-22 sales, observers say it may result in Japan being able to purchase the supersonic combat plane.

 

The F-22 is capable of flying faster than the speed of sound for long periods, is difficult to detect by radar and is an extremely capable air-to-air combat jet. Together with the F-35 stealth fighter, the F-22 is listed as a cutting-edge fifth-generation jet fighter. The F-22 topped a Defense Ministry list of the six candidate jets to be Japan's next-generation mainstay fighter.

 

According to sources, the initial supplementary budget for fiscal 2009 submitted by the administration of U.S. President Barack Obama did not include expenses related to F-22.

 

However, a joint committee of both House and Senate amended the supplementary budget on June 11 to add funds to cover research expenses for the development of the F-22, and cash to maintain the factory line for the jet fighter, which was proposed by Sen. Daniel Inoue, D-Hawaii, who is well-versed in Japanese affairs.

 

The amendment bill was approved by the lower house's plenary session Tuesday, and the Senate is expected to approve the bill by the end of the week at the earliest.

 

In April, the Obama administration decided to end procurement of F-22 stealth fighters.

 

The administration recommended Japan purchase F-35 stealth fighters, which were developed by countries including the United States and Britain, instead of the F-22 due to reasons including the embargo imposed by Congress.

 

However, some members of Congress and the air force have been demanding the U.S. administration maintain production of the F-22 to bolster national security and safeguard jobs. Security analysts also have begun voicing their support for the export of F-22s to Japan due to North Korea's nuclear weapons and long-range missile development programs.

 

Dennis Wilder, former senior director for East Asian affairs on the U.S.

National Security Council, said the time had come to discuss exporting the stealth fighter to Japan.

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Australlia was interested as well but the purchased the stop gap superbug while the F-35 is still under development.

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I just find it amusing that over 30 years after the F-15 and F-16 entered service they're still in production, but then these newer planes like the B-2 and F-22 they end production just as the plane enters service!!

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Well, yeah, but the F-15 and -16 don't even approach the unit cost of the F-22 or B-2 per plane, and are proven platforms; no reason to cut the production lines.

 

EDIT: But I do agree, it is kind of amusing to think about that fact.

Edited by Caesar

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I just find it amusing that over 30 years after the F-15 and F-16 entered service they're still in production, but then these newer planes like the B-2 and F-22 they end production just as the plane enters service!!

 

amusing is not quite the term I'd use...................

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What the hell are we too poor to fly our own jets that we have to sell them now like Russia?

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We've been selling our planes for over 60 years now, including ones like the F-5 that were never really used by the US!

 

The problem is that while things like effectiveness and reliability have improved over the decades, you still have a minimum number necessary for continuous ops at a high rate. I think we barely have enough F-22s for that right now. Give it 10 years and regular attrition means we will likely fall below that number. Early F-35s will definitely be more expensive than the F-22 is right now, taking I think at least 3 years before they become cheaper, so just how cost effective is cancellation anyway? We already spent the money to make the thing, now it's just parts and labor for any more.

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Obama has now threatened to veto the spending package because of the extended F-22 production and other things he has proclaimed unnecessary. I guess those worn out F-15s will have to soldier on.

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I heard about that on the news yesterday. I guess some politicians think the F-22 is obsolete?

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Obama has now threatened to veto the spending package because of the extended F-22 production and other things he has proclaimed unnecessary. I guess those worn out F-15s will have to soldier on.

 

:blink: Where'd you here this? I only found tidbits about selling to Japan.

 

Look on the bright side, kim jong il is just about over the deep end trying to start a fight, and with another korean war, we'll have to purchase even more than they are trying to now.

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:blink: Where'd you here this? I only found tidbits about selling to Japan.

 

There was an AP story about it this morning. The twelve additional F-22s and the alternate engine program for the F-35 are the two major programs they mentioned as being against Obama's military sensibilities.

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hm thats a bad idea, you'd think for the jobs alone they'd keep going. Though from his position, this and everything else is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" decision.

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hm thats a bad idea, you'd think for the jobs alone they'd keep going. Though from his position, this and everything else is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" decision.

 

We need to retain the jobs, we need the fighters, and we could really use the Japanese business. And from his perspective I don't see why adding another few billion to the deficit really makes a difference.

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I just find it amusing that over 30 years after the F-15 and F-16 entered service they're still in production, but then these newer planes like the B-2 and F-22 they end production just as the plane enters service!!

 

Just a shot in the dark but would'nt that partially have to do with the economic situation coupled with the cost factor of each Raptor or B-2 ? Besides if the Raptor is as good as they say then the USAF does not need 500+ of them to deal with majority of the worlds airforces right ? Its supposedly untouchable (cue MC Hammers "Cant touch this" :biggrin: )

Edited by Atreides

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Besides I'm sure the Raptors if sold to the Japanese (they should actually go shopping somewhere else just like the Indians have decided to broaden their fighter horizons, so that it would serve as a wake up call for those who take any client for granted. The Japanese should go the Western European route) would be sanitized version woopee we got Raptor Banz...oh wait they're nowhere near as capable of the version the USAF is fielding :rolleyes:

Edited by Atreides

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That's just it, though, the B-2s and F-22s aren't as expensive as claimed. If you add in the R&D costs then each plane costs that much more, but the more planes you make the cheaper they are.

 

The other thing is in a limited war you DON'T need a lot of F-22s or B-2s, but what about extended ops like we're facing now? When you need to have X number of planes on station 24/7 for YEARS you wind up running into maintenance issues as you don't have enough to rotate home for enough time to overhaul them. The only way we have enough F-22s for that is if ALL F-22s are devoted to that one conflict leaving none in CONUS for defense or ops anywhere.

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Besides I'm sure the Raptors if sold to the Japanese (they should actually go shopping somewhere else just like the Indians have decided to broaden their fighter horizons, so that it would serve as a wake up call for those who take any client for granted. The Japanese should go the Western European route) would be sanitized version woopee we got Raptor Banz...oh wait they're nowhere near as capable of the version the USAF is fielding :rolleyes:

 

Not to mention this thing I've read somewhere:

"The estimate for non-recurring development and manufacturing cost is $2.3 billion," the letter continues. "The actual cost to produce forty aircraft is approximately $9.3 billion, bringing the total to $11.6 billion. Spreading that cost over an estimated forty aircraft leads to an average aircraft cost of $290 million."

 

290 milion $ PER PLANE!!! It's afterburners should create gold out of s**t whenever lit up for this to pay off, you can get 3 EF-2000's for that or about 4 Gripens or Raphales

If USA want's to export something I say roll on the F-15 SilentEagle.

I mean honestly what's the point of buying the Raptor?

a) If you are already buying modern weapons from US that means you are an allied country, so what exactly needs to be countered here?

b) You can get 3-4 more than capable warplanes for the price of one Raptor, not to mention that those 3-4 will probably have greater mission variety

c) Quite honestly I don't believe Raptor is as untouchable as the makers claim, the best? Sure! Untouchable? Naaah...

Edited by Brain32

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