RIP F-22

[+EricJ 4,244]

Well look at it this way:

 

Currently, capatibilities of F-22 are not really needed, other aircrafts in the USAF/USN inventory can carry out any tasks required from them as history backs up even MORE than satisfactory I think we can all agree on that.

 

As somebody who required air support for a year, I can't agree more. Realistically the loss of the Raptor... isn't a loss because F-15s, A-10s, and various other assortment of aircraft we depended on to just drop bombs. Stealth isn't needed to provide Close Air Support and never saw a Raptor in-theatre anyways, and it sucks but from my personal opinion the world will still turn and bombas are needed more than a plane that hasn't done much, yet.

 

A couple years for PAK-FA is a bit optomistic anyways, sopposedly five to six.. but whatever they say

[TheStig 39]

It's better to have the silverbullet for the werewolf that hasn't come yet.

 

I still hope more F-22s are in the agenda soon...

[ezlead 42]

It all boils down to MONEY.

I just hope we don't end up with our backs to the wall screaming "We need more F-22's".

The F-35 program needs a good boot in the a@@ to get it back up to speed.

Unfortunately,history has shown that when Congress trys to save money it always costs us in the longrun.

OK 'Nuff said. My 2 cents.

[dsawan 624]

Well, we still have 187 of them. If there was a major conflict with a power, we still have the specs and can start production again. Not a total loss, just a small setback. The F-35 VSTOL will be key as the F-22 does not operate from carriers as far as I know.

[fallenphoenix1986 603]

As much as I think the 22 may be overkill, very impressive but overkill nontheless, Ihave to wonder if anyone in DC stopped to think that the F-15's wont last forever with the Youngest F-15C pushing 30?

 

187 airframes, how many are going to be lost in accidents and how many are going to be reserved for conversion training?

Then theres the fact that with only 187 they WILL go through their airframelife much faster due to the fact that they are so limited in number and the crews still require flight time in peacetime, theyre going to wear out faster than intended and the 15's will be past it. 35's can't really hold the fort since theyre taking over from the 16's, so whats left?

 

Craig

[Hawk MMS 0]

, so whats left?

 

The fall of Rome...

[column5 63]

As much as I think the 22 may be overkill, very impressive but overkill nontheless, Ihave to wonder if anyone in DC stopped to think that the F-15's wont last forever with the Youngest F-15C pushing 30?

 

187 airframes

 

 

Its a good question...what happens when the force dwindles down and we only have 400-500 tactical aircraft in the inventory, and an equally small number of pilots who don't get to fly very much because we have to ration the airframe hours?

[eraser_tr 29]

Sorry, EVERY gov't lies when it speaks. It doesn't matter what letter follows their name, they're lying.

 

I would be happy if all 535 members of Congress, every high court judge, and the executive branch were replaced tomorrow by random people taken from the population. I guarantee things would get better, maybe a LOT better.

Oh, and the bureaucracy must be thrown out. I don't care what forms you THINK are needed, they aren't. All your rules justify YOUR existence.

 

The US gov't is as effective as Tylenol against ebola.

 

I'm sure 99% of the population would agree with doing that.

 

I doubt programs like the PAK-FA and J-12 get anything done soon. They are basically where the F-22 was in the 80s and early 90s, and look where we are with the F-22 still. I wouldn't worry about China's airpower yet, their best domestic aircraft (J-10) I read was only up to the capabilities of the F-16A. There's still the J-11, but that's a first gen flanker that shouldn't be too great a threat. Meanwhile chinese manufacturing is about as s***ty as it comes, so the chances of any of it performing well to begin with is low.

Edited July 22, 2009 by eraser_tr

[Erwin_Hans 6]

I'm sure 99% of the population would agree with doing that.

 

I doubt programs like the PAK-FA and J-12 get anything done soon. They are basically where the F-22 was in the 80s and early 90s, and look where we are with the F-22 still. I wouldn't worry about China's airpower yet, their best domestic aircraft (J-10) I read was only up to the capabilities of the F-16A. There's still the J-11, but that's a first gen flanker that shouldn't be too great a threat. Meanwhile chinese manufacturing is about as s***ty as it comes, so the chances of any of it performing well to begin with is low.

 

Hmmmm.......

 

I agree with you"I wouldn't worry about China's airpower yet"

 

Some mistakes..

 

about J-11, not so ealier gen...it is something like MLUed, as good as F-15C,but PL-12 is not as good as AIM-120s

 

and J-12,that won't be called J-12,that must be J-13/14,15 or 13 is carrier based project,maybe.

 

The J-14,very early desigh....I know some about this...can't fly before 2015..if it is not PAK-FA.

 

And I read some about PAK-FA,very soon,maybe in 2-6 weeks[not TW game time.]

[JediMaster 451]

Remember the F-117s were retired early because the F-22 was proclaimed able to take over its mission, because the one thing people keep forgetting is stealth is NOT about "protection against enemy fighters" it's about "not being shot down by SAMs".

We have 20 B-2s, which isn't a lot at all, but they're not useful against mobile point targets. For the tac role we had F-117s, now we have to use F-22s.

If we don't, we have to send an F-15E or F-16 or some other plane that looms very LARGE on radar screens and risks being shot down, as they have in every conflict since Desert Storm.

[MAKO69 186]

I am fully confident that the remaining F-22s, F-15s, F-16s, F-18s,F-18 supers can all do the job well, I am not a Dem or a Rep. 1 F-22 can do the job of 6 of the other aircraft. The threat from our enemies has changed since the inception of the F-22 and the stealth family. Yes it sucks but, its politics. Early reports show 30 hrs maint. per 1 flight hour, probably teething issues with the maint crews taking it slow on purpouse (probably not) to make sure things are done right. Remember the F-35 is coming soon, not to mention the new F-15s which we should be conidering also.

Edited July 22, 2009 by MAKO69

[rotarycrazy 4]

If we had the f-15 in vietnan how many flight crews live would have being safe? now we have that avantage and we are stoping production?

 

187 is not enough, if comflict comes ( and I do think is a couple of years off) nearly half of them would be tied up in trainig and maintanance

 

what happengs if china is testing the PAK-FA in secret? and production starts this year?

 

what happengs if we have to go up against really good aircraft like the SU-30 and 35, would it be another vietnan 1 to 1 kill ratio?

 

what happengs if we have to ground the F-15c's again or they start falling in the midle of combat? it is an old aircraft

 

What if we have a 2 front war? russia invades georgia or something and india invades pakistan, and china attacks taiwan

 

I love the F-15 but we are pushing it thinking that it can fly forever, the next big comflic will come from the china, india region, they keep upgrading and buying new aircraft constandly, I have a lot of reservations on the F-35

 

 

sorry for the long rant

Edited July 22, 2009 by rotarycrazy

[+EricJ 4,244]

Plus another way to look at how Congress may be looking at:

 

What has it really done to prove it's cost? Fly in airshows? Alot of good arguments but seriously, the Raptor hasn't proven the "bang for the buck" that other airframes have, or systems. I think more C-17s do more for the GWOT and improved targeting systems for aircraft, along with UAVs and other highfalutin stuff that is proven to work, rather than fly around.

 

So why would we need to spend more money on a capability that hasn't been matched? PAK-FA? Whatever, it's an ambitious program, but hardly able to surpass the Raptor even if upgraded. The Raptor really can't be matched yet. So if we somehow have to fight Talibans flying PAK-FAs, I think we can stay with what we've got, and shift to what we need. Air superiority isnt' needed if there's no threat of it.

[MAKO69 186]

What if this what if that , What if an asteroid wacked the earth. You can speculate and what ifs all you want.

 

 

I'm not worried about China, no US buying goods there is no China. Not worried about N. Korea either, Japan has a very capable self defense force, and they will self defend N. Korea into the stone age. I think the world really sees how dependent they are on the US econemy doing well.

Edited July 22, 2009 by MAKO69

[Mike Dora 171]

If we had the f-15 in vietnan how many flight crews live would have being safe? now we have that avantage and we are stoping production?

 

187 is not enough, if comflict comes ( and I do think is a couple of years off) nearly half of them would be tied up in trainig and maintanance

 

what happengs if china is testing the PAK-FA in secret? and production starts this year?

 

what happengs if we have to go up against really good aircraft like the SU-30 and 35, would it be another vietnan 1 to 1 kill ratio?

 

what happengs if we have to ground the F-15c's again or they start falling in the midle of combat? it is an old aircraft

 

What if we have a 2 front war? russia invades georgia or something and india invades pakistan, and china attacks taiwan

 

I love the F-15 but we are pushing it thinking that it can fly forever, the next big comflic will come from the china, india region, they keep upgrading and buying new aircraft constandly, I have a lot of reservations on the F-35

 

 

sorry for the long rant

 

 

Simple. Buy Typhoons. I'm sure BAE will give the USAF a good price for the RAF model..

[rotarycrazy 4]

Plus another way to look at how Congress may be looking at:

 

What has it really done to prove it's cost? Fly in airshows? Alot of good arguments but seriously, the Raptor hasn't proven the "bang for the buck" that other airframes have, or systems. I think more C-17s do more for the GWOT and improved targeting systems for aircraft, along with UAVs and other highfalutin stuff that is proven to work, rather than fly around.

 

So why would we need to spend more money on a capability that hasn't been matched? PAK-FA? Whatever, it's an ambitious program, but hardly able to surpass the Raptor even if upgraded. The Raptor really can't be matched yet. So if we somehow have to fight Talibans flying PAK-FAs, I think we can stay with what we've got, and shift to what we need. Air superiority isnt' needed if there's no threat of it.

 

Remember the f-15? how long did it fly before it saw war?

 

if we use this argument, we would have not built the f-15 and f-14, because what the soviets had was the mig-23 and mig-21, we would have only neeeded the f-16 and f-18

 

it would not be smart to limit your capavilitys to the enemy's capabilitys, I think what we are doing today is wrong, using and f-16 or an f-15e to kill a truck or 3 talibans in a road is not smart, this can be done by a super tucano or an ov-10 or a UAV

 

I think what is needed is 400 f-22, a few more a-10 , 200 super tucanos or OV-10, more UAV and retire the old aircraft

[MAKO69 186]

Simple. Buy Typhoons. I'm sure BAE will give the USAF a good price for the RAF model..

 

I'll buy that for a dollar.

[MAKO69 186]

The way I see it?

 

America is fast losing its position as No1 great power!

 

If that happens, we will soon see China up there making new rules to the game.

 

And its gonna be a whole different ball game for the free world.

 

 

Where have you been we havn't been number 1 for a while.

 

What if this what if that , What if an asteroid wacked the earth. You can speculate and what ifs all you want.

 

 

I'm not worried about China, no US buying goods there is no China. Not worried about N. Korea either, Japan has a very capable self defense force, and they will self defend N. Korea into the stone age. I think the world really sees how dependent they are on the US econemy doing well.

 

 

Forgot to add this China has most of our debt.

[rotarycrazy 4]

What if this what if that , What if an asteroid wacked the earth. You can speculate and what ifs all you want.

 

 

I'm not worried about China, no US buying goods there is no China. Not worried about N. Korea either, Japan has a very capable self defense force, and they will self defend N. Korea into the stone age. I think the world really sees how dependent they are on the US econemy doing well.

 

I think you just made my point, the job of the armed forces is to be prepared for the most probable "what if" , and about the asteroid I think we should have being prepared a long time ago or at least as prepared as we can

 

If the US stops buying goods from the chinesse a lot of companys are going to close, more job loss, just what the economy needs right now, not to mention the fact that everytime we need a loan we go to them

 

the problem is that we cant just pull the plug and stop buying from the chinesse, most of the products that the US buys from other countrys use chinesse raw materials so those countrys would have to stop buying from china and I dont really see that happening

[MAKO69 186]

I think you just made my point, the job of the armed forces is to be prepared for the most probable "what if" , and about the asteroid I think we should have being prepared a long time ago or at least as prepared as we can

 

If the US stops buying goods from the chinesse a lot of companys are going to close, more job loss, just what the economy needs right now, not to mention the fact that everytime we need a loan we go to them

 

the problem is that we cant just pull the plug and stop buying from the chinesse, most of the products that the US buys from other countrys use chinesse raw materials so those countrys would have to stop buying from china and I dont really see that happening

 

 

You thought wrong.

[rotarycrazy 4]

You thought wrong.

 

 

JAJAJAJAJA! Maybe

[Erwin_Hans 6]

I think you just made my point, the job of the armed forces is to be prepared for the most probable "what if" , and about the asteroid I think we should have being prepared a long time ago or at least as prepared as we can

 

If the US stops buying goods from the chinesse a lot of companys are going to close, more job loss, just what the economy needs right now, not to mention the fact that everytime we need a loan we go to them

 

the problem is that we cant just pull the plug and stop buying from the chinesse, most of the products that the US buys from other countrys use chinesse raw materials so those countrys would have to stop buying from china and I dont really see that happening

 

 

Hmmmmmm....you should try this first.

[Erwin_Hans 6]

What if this what if that , What if an asteroid wacked the earth. You can speculate and what ifs all you want.

 

 

I'm not worried about China, no US buying goods there is no China. Not worried about N. Korea either, Japan has a very capable self defense force, and they will self defend N. Korea into the stone age. I think the world really sees how dependent they are on the US econemy doing well.

 

 

True,we are not enmey.

[MAKO69 186]

True,we are not enmey.

 

10-4 that Erwin_Hans my friend.

[+Brain32 265]

what happengs if china is testing the PAK-FA in secret? and production starts this year?

 

PAK-FA is a joint venture of Russia and India

 

what happengs if we have to go up against really good aircraft like the SU-30 and 35, would it be another vietnan 1 to 1 kill ratio?

 

Depend who is fielding them and in what numbers! I'd put my money on 8x late F-4E's with trained pilots and all the logisitcs and support(AWACS) against 4xF-15 with poorly trained pilots with no logistics and support anytime, not to mention if planes are of equal strenght like in your example.

 

what happengs if we have to ground the F-15c's again or they start falling in the midle of combat? it is an old aircraft

Do you know how many 1970's MiG-21's are still operational? And I'm talking only MiG-21's, not other derivations..

 

What if we have a 2 front war? russia invades georgia or something and india invades pakistan, and china attacks taiwan

Seriously why should you do anything in those cases? I mean Russia invades Georgia..so fu'in what?

 

India invades Pakistan? Arent Talibans from Pakistan? It's a win-win situation.

 

Also I don't see China invading anybody, all of the surrounding contires and territories can't provide them with anything they don't already have, so why wasting money on some kind of wars and international complications, it's silly and they aren't. They were one of the very few that finished last year on a positive side financial wise, it's simply not in their intrest to start any kind of wars...

 

If any conflicts should arise anytime soon(relatively speaking) I can only see North Korea or, IMO less likely Iran.

 

Why?

 

First Russia vs. USA even if such a horrifying thing would happen Raptors will have apsolutely 0, yes Z-E-R-O use in such a war. Russia and USA together have over 7000 active nuclear weapons and over 20 freakin 000 nuclear weapons in total. Who would the Raptors shoot at in such a war???

 

I already explained why I don't see China starting wars, and as for India and Pakistan I really can't help to say - so F'in what? I must admit I strongly prefer Indians in such a scenario so I would just let them sweep the floor with the Pakistanis as they always did, also both of theese countries own nuclear weapons which serve as a really good war deterrent. The only problem is that some extremistic factions in Pakistan might actually be insane enough to simply not care - that part is scary...