Killed flight members stay alive?

[vonOben 55]

Hi

 

I’m new to OFF-BhaH and I’ve noticed in several occasions that members of my flight have been shot down by flak or enemy aircraft. After I’ve ended the mission the de-briefing doesn’t say that any of my flight members have been killed or haven’t returned from the flight.

 

When I check the duty room the pilots that were shot down are still there and in service. None of those pilots were aces.

 

Am I imagining things or does it work like that in OFF-BhaH?

 

Cheers

 

vonOben

 

 

[sandbagger 1]

Hi Per,

Normally you'd expect to get notification of pilot losses after the mission. I'm sure 'Winder' or 'Polovski' will provide an answer on this, if they're not beaten to it by other forum members.

Good to see you here - FAW is looking great

[MikeDixonUK 5]

Welcome, vonOben.

 

At the moment I don't think the OFF Game manager tracks if your wingmen are killed in the game - rather it generates people being wounded/killed on its own - so you could lose all your wingmen and find that none of them were killed - or you could fly a mission and have all your wingmen return to base with you, then find that one of them is dead.

 

I'm not sure if it's by design or just an engine limitation - some say that if they were all tracked correctly it would lead to overly large losses, though - as the AI often fight to the death.

[vonOben 55]

Hi guys

 

Thanks for the friendly welcome and for the information.

 

 

At the moment I don't think the OFF Game manager tracks if your wingmen are killed in the game - rather it generates people being wounded/killed on its own - so you could lose all your wingmen and find that none of them were killed - or you could fly a mission and have all your wingmen return to base with you, then find that one of them is dead.

 

I'm not sure if it's by design or just an engine limitation - some say that if they were all tracked correctly it would lead to overly large losses, though - as the AI often fight to the death.

 

That’s a bit of a disappointment and an immersion killer for me.

Seems rather pointless to help and try to bring the members of your flight safe back to base when the outcome is not counted for.

 

Cheers

vonOben

 

 

 

[Ryan H 0]

That’s a bit of a disappointment and an immersion killer for me.

Seems rather pointless to help and try to bring the members of your flight safe back to base when the outcome is not counted for.

 

 

I agree. This has always been a minor sticking point for me with OFF. Not enough to really effect the way I feel about the game but it would be nice if they could fix it.

[rabu 9]

Yes, I've seen this mentioned before, in fact, a discussion over on the Riseofflight.com forum about OFF brought it up recently, but... "An Immersion Killer?" with all that's going on in OFF I'm surprised that one thing would be an "immersion killer." And that's strange that would be enough to see you drop OFF, VonOpen, but I guess each player has criteria that are the most important to them. We all welcome you here and would hate to see you go over this one, small "disappointment." To me, and most everyone else who has tried OFF, having a dynamic campaign far outweighs this small glitch in wing mate accountability, when the only other alternative matching OFF, in some ways, is Rise Of Flight, and it has no dynamic campaign at all?

 

Pat Wilson has been working on a scripted campaign for ROF, and that's a big improvement, but it's a far cry from the historically accurate weather, moving front lines, troop campaigns, planes, airfields, etc., etc., And each time you go out flying in OFF you never know what is likely to happen, or where, because it isn't scripted. Plus you've got so many planes to fly and see along with thousands of plane skins, etc. all historically accurate in time and place.. that's what I call IMMERSION.

 

And, though it probably isn't a priority with the devs, I'm sure they will figure out a way to fix this down the line, just as they have with so many other problem decedents from CFS3 that have been fixed over the last couple of years.

Edited May 23, 2010 by rabu

[Bullethead 12]

The thing is, OFF combat is apparently rather more lethal than the real thing was. In real life, there was a lot of running away after failing to come to conclusive grips, or bugging out after taking a few hits. In OFF OTOH, most dogfights only end with the annihilation of 1 side or the other, several times a day, every day for as long as you live.

 

It IS possible to tweak your pilot files to reflect the friendly losses you see happen during a fight. Just go into the OBDSoftware\CFSWW1 Over Flanders Fields\campaigns\CampaignData\Pilots folder and find the "PilotXDossier.txt" file for the pilot in question (X being the number of the pilot). Near the bottom of this file is a list of all your non-ace AI squad members, 1 guy per line. The last item in each pilot's line is his status. If you think somebody shouldn't be around anymore, you can change this from "In Service" to "Missing" or even "KIA". If you do "Missing", there's a SMALL chance he'll turn up alive in a few days, but mostly he'll end up being "KIA".

 

I've experimented with this several times. Just be warned, however, that the applied loss rate GREATLY exceeds the replacement rate, so your squadron quickly dwindles to 3-4 guys, 2 of whom are always on leave. This isn't a lot of fun when it's just you and 1 wingman facing entire enemy squadrons. So, I think it's best to just take the results the game gives you, which are more realistic to the actual loss rates for your time and place, even if they don't match what you see happen.

[Creaghorn 10]

The thing is, OFF combat is apparently rather more lethal than the real thing was. In real life, there was a lot of running away after failing to come to conclusive grips, or bugging out after taking a few hits. In OFF OTOH, most dogfights only end with the annihilation of 1 side or the other, several times a day, every day for as long as you live.

 

It IS possible to tweak your pilot files to reflect the friendly losses you see happen during a fight. Just go into the OBDSoftware\CFSWW1 Over Flanders Fields\campaigns\CampaignData\Pilots folder and find the "PilotXDossier.txt" file for the pilot in question (X being the number of the pilot). Near the bottom of this file is a list of all your non-ace AI squad members, 1 guy per line. The last item in each pilot's line is his status. If you think somebody shouldn't be around anymore, you can change this from "In Service" to "Missing" or even "KIA". If you do "Missing", there's a SMALL chance he'll turn up alive in a few days, but mostly he'll end up being "KIA".

 

I've experimented with this several times. Just be warned, however, that the applied loss rate GREATLY exceeds the replacement rate, so your squadron quickly dwindles to 3-4 guys, 2 of whom are always on leave. This isn't a lot of fun when it's just you and 1 wingman facing entire enemy squadrons. So, I think it's best to just take the results the game gives you, which are more realistic to the actual loss rates for your time and place, even if they don't match what you see happen.

 

exactly. a correct tracking of the insim outcome would only make sense if the devs find a way for the dogfights to last about 3 minutes and with lot more running away etc. as long as it isn't like that, it's better to have it like it is now.

[+Winder 32]

exactly. a correct tracking of the insim outcome would only make sense if the devs find a way for the dogfights to last about 3 minutes and with lot more running away etc. as long as it isn't like that, it's better to have it like it is now.

 

Yes quite right and we are very much aware of this which is why we are not tracking actual in sim losses.

 

P3 is more about personal survival than saving your squadies .... but watch this space....

 

 

WM

[Creaghorn 10]

Yes quite right and we are very much aware of this which is why we are not tracking actual in sim losses.

 

P3 is more about personal survival than saving your squadies .... but watch this space....

 

 

WM

 

 

WOHOOOOOO

[Hasse Wind 46]

Like I posted in the most recent P4 thread, I'm sure we'd all like to see a squadron management system comparable to what RB3D had. But such a system would be very unrealistic, in fact almost crazy, with the number of casualties we currently see in combat. You'd lose the whole squadron in a couple of days, and at least for me, that would be much more of an immersion killer than the current system.

 

It all comes down to improving the AI behaviour. If this can be done in P4, then there will be no need to stick to the current system. Until that day comes, I'm satisfied what we have now. OFF is far from perfect, but compared to any other WW1 sim out there, it really is the best sim for single player campaigns.

Edited May 23, 2010 by Hasse Wind

[rabu 9]

Yes quite right and we are very much aware of this which is why we are not tracking actual in sim losses.

 

P3 is more about personal survival than saving your squadies .... but watch this space....

 

WM

 

See... I told you guys..

[cptroyce 0]

 

>> ..but watch this space <<

 

Well, that one line you don't have to read between!

[Bullethead 12]

P3 is more about personal survival than saving your squadies .... but watch this space....

 

An enhancement beyond my expectations (which are high, given what OBD has already done ). Bravo! I eagerly look forward to seeing more inconclusive fights

[rabu 9]

Unless of course it's the balloon mission, as there the members of your flight, must serve as your witness

 

This Game as they call it, revolves around the life of the pilot, not the flight members

 

Something MUST serve as a pivot point, if not the pilot . . .Who ?

 

Very good point, but I think WM has some ideas on improvements, and that would be welcome by many.

[Barkhorn1x 14]

I continue to be amazed at the results OBD has achieved with what was released as pretty much a flawed engine that was barely patched to begin with.

 

Did anyone actually fly the original CFS3? I did for about two days – and soon realized that it was a sad joke. “As real as it gets”? Sure, sure. When the actions of a pilot effect the outcome of a world war?

 

So, the good news was that the sim code was very open to adding a/c and objects – the CFS series only real claim to fame. But the bad news was that the code sucked – much like its predecessors CFS1 & 2.

 

Now, the great news is that OBD has transformed this base into something really special that keeps pushing the boundaries. I d/l’d OFF Phase 2 and did not really like it as the manager was too kludgy for me to enjoy. Phase 3 fixed that and really improved the experience to the point that there is little comparison between the two. I am pretty sure that Phase 4 will prove to be another quantum leap and I cannot wait to see what OBD comes up with.

[vonOben 55]

"An Immersion Killer?" with all that's going on in OFF I'm surprised that one thing would be an "immersion killer." And that's strange that would be enough to see you drop OFF, VonOpen, but I guess each player has criteria that are the most important to them. We all welcome you here and would hate to see you go over this one, small "disappointment."

 

 

Hi rabu

 

Immersion killer was perhaps a bit harsh, and it it's not my intention to drop OFF because of that.

But I was quite astonished over the fact that what happened to other flight members during missions was totally unimportant and when your flight members are killed they come back and flies again the next mission. Zombie flyers perhaps?

 

So any improvements in this area would be highly appreciated.

 

Cheers

 

vonOben

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[12oclockhigh 0]

And each time you go out flying in OFF you never know what is likely to happen, or where, because it isn't scripted. Plus you've got so many planes to fly and see along with thousands of plane skins, etc. all historically accurate in time and place.. that's what I call IMMERSION.

 

I have to respectfully disagree here, Rabu, OFF is certainly scripted. Its done well enough that there is the appearance of randomness but when you play long enough the same patterns emerge. For instance several times I've run across a flight of three Albatrosses that seem intent on attacking one of my air fields. I can follow them down on their straffing run and shoot them up big time. Only when they are done the scripted portion of their mission do they react to me.

[Duce Lewis 3]

And each time you go out flying in OFF you never know what is likely to happen, or where, because it isn't scripted. Plus you've got so many planes to fly and see along with thousands of plane skins, etc. all historically accurate in time and place.. that's what I call IMMERSION.

 

I have to respectfully disagree here, Rabu, OFF is certainly scripted. Its done well enough that there is the appearance of randomness but when you play long enough the same patterns emerge. For instance several times I've run across a flight of three Albatrosses that seem intent on attacking one of my air fields. I can follow them down on their straffing run and shoot them up big time. Only when they are done the scripted portion of their mission do they react to me.

12'O, I'm not sure if that's scripted play rather than an AI issue

Attack AI has always been more problematic in OFF

Click "A" to send yor wingies to attack a ground target and they'll all fly off then return 2 min later in pairs

In cfs3, flights are either programmed as Fighter or Bomber and, in game, each will behave very differently

Bombers AI was designed around WWII heavies flying in formation and slugging it out ...like your Albs did

Bullethead addressed this issue a while back when his Fee wingies were flying bomber like

Setting them as Fighter Bombers helped quite a bit IIRC

Cracking the cfs3 code is fairly new, started in P3

Maybe the Devs will have some better Bomber AI for P4

[+Winder 32]

There is no 'scripting' in OFF campaign/missions.

 

One thing I would like to remind everyone is that the duty roster is updated based on a day's activities and of course the following can apply:

 

1) Pilots that crash in sim may not be dead and may return at end of day...

 

2) Pilots that return with the player may succumb in other sorties that the player is not involved in during the course of that day.

 

 

Finally yes P3 is about you the pilot....

 

 

WM

[12oclockhigh 0]

There is no 'scripting' in OFF campaign/missions.

 

One thing I would like to remind everyone is that the duty roster is updated based on a day's activities and of course the following can apply:

 

1) Pilots that crash in sim may not be dead and may return at end of day...

 

2) Pilots that return with the player may succumb in other sorties that the player is not involved in during the course of that day.

 

 

Finally yes P3 is about you the pilot....

 

 

WM

[12oclockhigh 0]

Hi Winder. Maybe we're talking two different things here but to me 'scripting' is not just the various languages but also the placing of preset instructions for non human controlled objects in a game. If I refly a mission in OFF but fly it the same way I flew the first mission I will be booted out of warp and encounter the same enemy aircraft at almost the exact same location at almost precisely the same time, to within a few seconds and they will execute the exact same manuvers. That last bit is not surprising because every condition is the same as the first mission and all things being equal the AI should react the same. But my point here is isn't this whole event up to where (I think, anyway) the AI and human react 'scripted' with paths and setpoints?

[+Polovski 460]

You also have to allow for the flights that you are not part of. Maybe another flight took off after yours, and you were not in that flight, and someone was killed. Maybe the guy that got shot down was Ok and returned etc. So many reasons that what we have is still valid just add some fog of war and you'll be ok :). The sim only shows when you are in a flight of course, but use some imagination and it's not so bad :).

[+Winder 32]

Hi Winder. Maybe we're talking two different things here but to me 'scripting' is not just the various languages but also the placing of preset instructions for non human controlled objects in a game. If I refly a mission in OFF but fly it the same way I flew the first mission I will be booted out of warp and encounter the same enemy aircraft at almost the exact same location at almost precisely the same time, to within a few seconds and they will execute the exact same manuvers. That last bit is not surprising because every condition is the same as the first mission and all things being equal the AI should react the same. But my point here is isn't this whole event up to where (I think, anyway) the AI and human react 'scripted' with paths and setpoints?

 

 

You are talking replayability of the same mission (mission replay) - I am talking about how each mission is setup and the chances of any two missions being the same - so yes different things.

 

I guess you should try it but remember you will have to execute the same maneuvers on time everytime, to see the Ai react the same everytime....and even then the AI can have options of maneuvers to exectute so not as predictable as you would think.

 

HTH

 

WM