SF2 Series DACT Reports And Related A2A Discussions (Game only)

[exhausted 55]

Let's see you do the opposite! That's why I wan't MP - to show you guys that you're a better pilot if you can take a Yak and shoot down the F-14 against another human!

[Caesar 305]

Well, that's just the thing isn't it? Because the series doesn't have MP, we're stuck with the AI. As it stands, if you look back through here, you'll see several occasions where we take an otherwise outmatched airframe and come out on top, some that come to mind include A-4 vs. F-14 and F-16, or F-14A vs. F-16C, F/A-18E and MiG-29, F-4EJ vs. Super Mysterie at Visual, EricJ's fights in the Bug/Super Bug against concept aircraft, or 1/2 v many situations to even the playing field, we've done that, but always against AI. I'd gladly take a Scooter up against a human opponent in a 4th Gen fighter or my Tomcat against a human Fulcrum, Flanker, Super Bug or otherwise, but with the way SF2 is, I don't have that option, nor does EricJ or anyone else who posts in the DACT forums. Really is unfortunate, but that's what we've got.

[+EricJ 3,994]

And other than the WIP Krizis Yak-38, it's not flyable yet so I'm not worried about it honestly.

[+EricJ 3,994]

This wasn't an intended mission but I had wanted to go over this one regarding heat seekers and friendly fire, or how to avoid such a thing... The main thing to understand is symbology, depending on the aircraft. The more modern the HUD the more easier it gets since the IFF checkbox doesn't work and the missile cannot differentiate between friendly and enemy, it sees a heat source and goes for it. F/A-18, F-16, F-15, and other aircraft all have a "pipper" showing the position of the sensor of the missile. In this scenario I was attacking the Kiev ship and it had sortied two Forgers. After my missile strike disabled the ship and shot down one with an AMRAAM the remaining Forger was going after my two EA-6Bs (TAMPA flight). Before this I had locked the Forger with my radar, therefore I knew which aircraft was which. After that it was just accelerating to engage the Forger and prevent him from engaging my escort jammers. He merged with the contacts and therefore since I had only 9Xs left (weapon type doesn't matter, as long as it's an IR homer), so I had to make my shot count. The seeker within its detection cone “bounces” around as it scans the area. Using the radar to cue the target makes sure (as well as using the overhead map if you use it) sure you’re locked onto the proper aircraft and it removes all doubt that you’re on the right target. The seeker will bounce on friendly and also enemy jets, so you have to cycle between the two to get the right shot. Once the circle (this case of course F/A-18) stays on the enemy target that you locked up with radar (second picture) I took the shot and winged him. Since he now flew past my escort jammers through his and my maneuvering he’s ready for a better kill.

[+daddyairplanes 9,226]

if there ever is MP in SF2, you guys could sell tickets to an EricJ v Ceasar match up. start each in their favorite bird(18F v 14A+) then Super Hornet v same and wrap up with Tomcat v Tomcat. get JonathanRL to record and provide commentary! still this thread is a virtual KB of dogfighting cause of you two.

[macelena 1,070]

I tried a few dogfights in a fictional 1980 exercises IAF vs USN using mainly stock aircraft, (along with some antiship attacks with Israeli A-4Ns against US warships) and results are rather interesting. F-15s own the sky against anything, outmatching the F-14 in BVR effectiveness and outmaneuvering the F-16 by powerplant. F-14s are surprisingly agile, even against F-16s, whose numbers are cut shorter before merging. While the F-16s are the most agile of all, they are rather less capable against other 4th gen fighters.

 

Skyhawks, both IDFAF´s N and USMC´s M, lack power to dogfight properly, but their agility help them to keep up. The opposite can be said of the Kfir. Despite that, the lack of specific radar make A-A gunfire quite hard, even while i prefer manually aiming for that matter.

 

Now, the ultimate Phantom vs Phantom showdown. F-4S Vs F-4E Kurnass (78). Well, while the IAF plane gains with a cannon, i would say there is a bit less agile than the Navy plane, but i could be wrong. F-4S is also slightly superior in terms of BVR with stats about accuracy.

 

About IRMs, I would say the Python is better than the Sidewinder. Despite that, i find non all aspect missiles (like Aim-9J, H, N, P) to be quite more resistant to flares than all-aspect missiles.

[+EricJ 3,994]

I agree macelena, as I use 9Ps occasionally and nine times out of ten I hit with them all the time and quite honestly have a place in my weapons choice to use them when I feel like it. I also like the older ones (L,M) and they haven't been that bad either.

 

Surprisingly the most maneuverable are the "slower" ones as a higher powered aircraft tends to overshoot more and therefore allows the opposing aircraft to have a slight advantage (not much) compared to a faster jet. Now don't get me wrong it's all on the aircraft design that determines a lot as well as skill.

 

From what I've seen the Python (later versions) are very capable but not sure about maneuverability but that's another area I guess to go into sometime.

 

@daddyairplanes: I'll probably skip the Tomcat version due to just pure inexperience... I've flown the Su-33 quite a bit and that'll probably be my choice as I have that aircraft down pretty well.

 

Me: F-22A with 2 x AIM-9X and 6 x AIM-120

Opposition: F/A-18C with 2 x Sidewinder and 2 x Sparrow (I think, didn't really check this time)

 

Since Julhelm released his new cockpit it was time to see if everything was okay, and yes it's a well done cockpit that is just nice. But this is another lesson I was thinking about and that is patience for the shot. The Hornet (Legacy and Super) are both christened with great maneuverability and even against the F-22A its still a match that requires you to think and outmatch the Legacy. Since i stuck with the Legacy bird this is a good demonstration of a wily opponent that you need to wait until the "perfect" shot happens. Started off neutral and the aircraft put me in various energy circles that I tried to get out of and around five minutes or so managed to work him into (or he put himself into it) a good firing position. My first 9X went stoopid, but after looking at it, the case was operator error and the missile went into the ground. Waiting for a few more seconds until he leveled out (which is always the prime shot) I fired my remaining 9X, killing him.

 

The takeaway here is not so much weapon capability but maneuvering. The more the target aircraft "moves around" when in padlock the worse your shot will be. Perpendicular and depending on aspect makes a difference between a good shot and a wasted shot. The more you can "stabilize" the enemy aircraft in either your HUD or in padlock view means you have a better shot which still applies to off boresight missiles. This is regardless if they can turn on a dime or not, they still have to obey the laws of motion and physics, and energy. Also, if you can "Stabilize" things and all you have left are radar guided missiles you set yourself up for success as while you wasted maybe a few missiles, you have another option, and if my 9X missed I could have gone to my AMRAAMs just in case.

[+EricJ 3,994]

Me: Rafale C Beta 1.2 version, gun, 2 x MICA IR and 4 x MICA EM

Opposition: MiG-21bis with gun, 4 x Atoll

 

As a beta the Rafale C isn't very bad, just a few more tweaks here and there and it'll be much better looking as some cockpit symbology needs some cleaning up. Other than that the major problem you will have is the ability in SF2NA at least is blacking out a lot. The suggestion is to take it easy on the stick but pull firmly, not hard on it to get around. The engines give it a lot of thrust and that's a problem as you'll expend more energy trying to maneuver the plane around. And out of sheer luck I managed to avoid pancaking on the ground. But don't take this as a defect, more than likely it's more "realistic" due to the engine power. When I managed to get into a good firing position my first MICA IR went real stoopid (or flares distracted it) and after a little maneuvering the second one connected, downing the MiG.

 

As a beta it's a good plane and that's what you should take away from this report. It's not bad, still needs to be tweaked but otherwise the main emphasis is not to turn and burn too much or you'll A) Overshoot B) And when you pull hard you'll black out. The old adage "Lose sight, lose the fight" applies to this aircraft as such but is a nifty little jet and still worth the download. And after some HUD tweaking it'll be better. So I can't really say it's bad but after some more tweaks and fixes it'll be a good plane.

[+Heberth 159]

Me: Rafale C Beta 1.2 version, gun, 2 x MICA IR and 4 x MICA EM

Opposition: MiG-21bis with gun, 4 x Atoll

 

As a beta the Rafale C isn't very bad, just a few more tweaks here and there and it'll be much better looking as some cockpit symbology needs some cleaning up. Other than that the major problem you will have is the ability in SF2NA at least is blacking out a lot. The suggestion is to take it easy on the stick but pull firmly, not hard on it to get around. The engines give it a lot of thrust and that's a problem as you'll expend more energy trying to maneuver the plane around. And out of sheer luck I managed to avoid pancaking on the ground. But don't take this as a defect, more than likely it's more "realistic" due to the engine power. When I managed to get into a good firing position my first MICA IR went real stoopid (or flares distracted it) and after a little maneuvering the second one connected, downing the MiG.

 

As a beta it's a good plane and that's what you should take away from this report. It's not bad, still needs to be tweaked but otherwise the main emphasis is not to turn and burn too much or you'll A) Overshoot B) And when you pull hard you'll black out. The old adage "Lose sight, lose the fight" applies to this aircraft as such but is a nifty little jet and still worth the download. And after some HUD tweaking it'll be better. So I can't really say it's bad but after some more tweaks and fixes it'll be a good plane.

 

Thanks EricJ!

about the FM making you black-out a lot:

it's because i'm trying to make it a 9G fighter, but due to game-engine limitation, it's hard to get the FM realistic , so, sometimes it don't pass the 8g , you change a unique number in the data.ini and you hit 12 g in the same speed/altitude! this was making me crazy

about the HUD, i think WhiteboySamurai fixed it, and IMHO it's a SF2NA-only problem, because i don't had it in my SF2I.

Well, was you said, still a Beta, and i hope to fix everything to make this a good mod.

 

PS: now, what about a F/A 18E versus Rafale?

 

 

 

 

[+EricJ 3,994]

Thanks EricJ!

about the FM making you black-out a lot:

it's because i'm trying to make it a 9G fighter, but due to game-engine limitation, it's hard to get the FM realistic , so, sometimes it don't pass the 8g , you change a unique number in the data.ini and you hit 12 g in the same speed/altitude! this was making me crazy

about the HUD, i think WhiteboySamurai fixed it, and IMHO it's a SF2NA-only problem, because i don't had it in my SF2I.

Well, was you said, still a Beta, and i hope to fix everything to make this a good mod.

 

PS: now, what about a F/A 18E versus Rafale?

 

Well

 

Me: F/A-18E with 4 x AIM-9X and 6 x AIM-120, tank, gun

Opposition: Rafale C with 2 x MICA IR and 4 x MICA AR, gun

 

Started off neutral and then engaged in what was turning into what I thought was a losing battle. It first got me into a turning fight and it wasn't easily defeated by going vertical. The Beta Rafale C as flown by the AI took advantage of the power and ran around in circles. I managed to get nose on with him, firing one 9X too late as he sped past me, almost gunning me. Then he managed to get on my six and try and gun me down and missed with that. He leveled off and I did what I knew wasn't the right thing, I turned into him to try and get a quick shot, but he gave me two MICA IRs instead, both shredding my left stabilizer and then maybe an engine hit, but still functional, just no radar weapons now and still felt the same as far as maneuverability and handling. Pretty soon he leveled off and I fed him another 9X, that one defeated by flares. By this time he was flying steady so I fired another 9X, again defeated by flares. Fired the last one and it connected and shot him down.

 

Takeaways. The Rafale is a wily plane and worse than the Hornet when it comes to maneuverability and energy, i.e. it'll outturn the slower jets easily, maybe Caesar can figure out a way in the Tomcat but to the inexperienced I'd work your way up to the point where you can use your aircraft effectively. The AI uses it better than I did and it showed some rust on me in my shots but you gotta try anyway. I was able to limp back to the nearby airfield and live another day.

 

Next: F/A-18F EPE vs. Rafale C

Edited April 17, 2012 by EricJ

[+Heberth 159]

That was awesome!

i have a problem with the RafaleData.ini, as one guy said in Portuguese to me: " the rafale don't lose energy in turns because it's a good jet or it's a problem?"( and i think you noticed this too)

I hope to get the right Drag on it, but only by watching videos of airshows... its really hard. Anyway, great DACT!

[Caesar 305]

Caesar did figure out a way in the Tomcat

 

Just did this one, though I want to bring the bird up again, since this was not my finest performance. Prior to the fight, I reviewed my fight against the EF-2000, since these planes are both delta-winged, twin-engined, canard using maneuverable 4.5 gen fighters, I figured the Rafale C would handle similarly to the Eurofighter. I figured the same things that applied to the EF-2000 would apply to the Rafale - compared to the F-14B, it probably has better instantaneous turning, probably inferior sustained turning at slow speeds (looses vortex lift at some point), and is probably going to be a general pain to fight. For this fight, I used the F-14B 96, and took some shots with the debug on for G/speed purposes, though in the report, they are a bit out of context and probably not worth much.

 

Loadouts:

F-14B - 4x AIM-9M, 2x AIM-7P, gun, 75% fuel, no tanks

Rafale C - 4x MICA EM, 2x MICA IR gun, 100% fuel, no tanks (EDIT - I did have the MICA IR missiles installed, they look a lot like the EM's, so I thought I hadn't installed them right - indeed they are and were on the Rafale when I fought it!).

 

As with the EF-2000 I started with a one-circle towards the Rafale at about 9g, to try to threaten the enemy as quickly as he would threaten me. To my surprise, the Rafale was not pulling as hard as I expected, and I was headed for his tail. I let off on the "g" to 5.9 expecting to be able to capitalize on my position by allowing a slight energy build, then pulling hard for a slight off-boresight heater shot. As I got past the Rafale's 3/9 line, however, the AI decided it did not want me on its tail and began pulling harder into me. I immediately rolled and put the Tomcat on its back, pulling something of a half loop to try to keep a position of advantage, since my initial pull had brought my energy down.

 

 

This, of course, allowed the Rafale to dive down on me as I pulled up into him. He was off-boresight, and I re-rolled and pulled low again, this time to chase him. What ensued was a descending energy circle (reminiscent of my early fights with the F-16) until we were on the deck. Knowing this was a stalemate position, I reversed to generate a two-circle fight, but my sloppy energy management left me at about 290 KIAS, too fast for flaps, too slow for a good turn radius/rate. The Rafale fired a MICA at me just as I passed his nose. We were so close I knew there was no way for the missile to hit my Turkey, so I simply continued my turn, the Rafale doing the same. I reversed, dropped flaps, and pulled hard into the Rafale.

 

 

 

This time, I was getting on the Rafale's tail, but rather than commit to a Scissors, the Rafale reversed to preserve the one-circle fight. I followed him for a bit, anticipating that my flaps would allow me to curl inside his turn. Unfortunately for me, having the flaps down limited my energy enough, and allowed the Rafale to build enough, that we were stalemating again, so I reversed the fight again. This time I get nose on first, quickly enough that I roll into the Rafale's plane of turn and get tone, but just below optimal heater envelope. Knowing how easily heaters are fooled now, I opt not to shoot, but the Rafale is building energy quickly and begins to pull away! Reverse again.

 

 

Now I'm getting frustrated - the AI is actually using good advantages against me to stalemate the fight effectively. I know, however, it doesn't like being shot at. As I curl into the Rafale this time, I loose a heater in his direction, having achieved nose-on first again. He pops flares, straightens for but a moment, then continues his turn, roll, pull, FOX 2 again! Same thing. He's holding his turn, and yet again, building energy just fast enough to force yet another reversal. This time, I fire an AIM-9 at the Rafale just as I get nose-on as he is closing on my Turkey, rather than perpendicular, or at lag. Although this one misses, I quickly roll the Tomcat with combined rudder/spoiler before the Rafale passes me and pull into him. This puts my nose in front of the Rafale as he passes, and I unload, firing my last heater just as my opponent tries to start pulling away. I'm nearly dead six, unloading, building energy and anticipating closing for guns when the fourth Sidewinder impacts and destroys the Rafale off the nose.

 

 

 

 

Total fight time 5 minutes, 52 seconds.

 

Takeaways: The Rafale C usually didn't drop below 400 KIAS throughout the fight, while I was hoping to beat him down on energy, I wound up beating myself down and prolonging the fight. The Tomcat's flaps are a powerful tool when used right, but also generate a LOT of drag, and I'd probably have been better off keeping the jet between 350 and 400 KIAS, with some room to maneuver in the vertical. As it stands, the Rafale did not corner as well as the Tomcat when I had flaps down, but did out-instantaneously turn it with flaps up in the low 300-high 200 KIAS region as I expected. If the Rafale did have its MICA IR, I don't know how much of a difference it would have made, since the one shot it did get on me was at such a high closure rate, the seeker may not have even seen me, and every point of the fight therefrom, I was inside its circle - that said, I won't know until I fix the MICA IR on my install.

 

EDIT: Update - I actually did have the MICA IR installed, the Rafale was carrying it in the fight, and that is the missile the Rafale shot at me (had no RWR warnings when he shot at me). It must have happened as I thought, I was way too close for it to pick me up.

 

Generally the AI seems to handle the Rafale well defensively. It forced ME to do the reversals, and continuously tried to force a one-turn energy circle that would have stalemated the fight indefinitely. I've been impressed with what I've seen in this fight - will have to take it up again.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Caesar

[+EricJ 3,994]

It may help...

 

Me: F/A-18F EPE with 4 x AIM-9X, 6 x AIM-120, tank

Opposition: Rafale C with 2 MICA IR, 4 MICA EM

 

Started off the same neutral and this time I did a half loop. I probably could have taken a shot but had to see if the extra boost would help. It did after an 11 minute battle of energy. Even with the extra thrust the Rafale C and EPE are evenly matched in my book (I think JAT did the FM) and he managed to try and stick me with a MICA and it missed. I would go into more but getting out of the energy circle is sometimes hard and most tricks in the book never worked. It was a long hard drawn out fight and I finally dropped my tank to lessen the weight. I fired early again and it went stoopid, and then at about the 11 minute or so mark it leveled out and I fired and it connected.

 

Fact is that maybe the FM needs adjustment or the Rafale is just a nasty dogfighter,

[+JonathanRL 973]

JAS 39C Gripen

vs

Rafale C

 

 

Rules:

Best of 3

No guided weapons; Guns only.

ECM / RADAR Allowed

 

Challenger is defensive first round and offensive the second. Tiebreaker round is head to head.

 

Presenting the Challenger; the Flagship of the Air Forces of Sweden, South Africa and Thailand, the SAAB 39 Gripen have issued challenge to the Dassault Rafale, The Twin Engine monster of France, recently purchased by India.

 

It is time to settle once and for all who is deserving of the Brazilian contract..

[+EricJ 3,994]

Me: Rafale C BETA with 4 x Matra R.550, gun

Opposition: Fulcrum-C with 4 x R-73 and 2 x R-27

 

I will probably go against the Super Hornet sometime but I'll start out with the Fulcrum. One thing I learned to keep from blacking out (may be game settings, waaaay too easy to black out) was to pop the airbrakes and maneuver, this helps keep your speed manageable and also works to get your nose on a target much easier. I managed to get into position for firing and it was a little close and the Matra didn't track. Second one a perfect six shot and it misses. The Fulcrum levels out and I pop him with a third. Overall the Rafale needs some work as a beta FM-wise or its just SF2:NA that's the issue or its just me that's the problem but once those problems are solved

 

Takeaways. I think honestly the modeling for French missiles is horrendous. The MICA IR missiles are pretty bad and easily are decoyed by flares. A previous (and unsuccessful) attempt with only four out of four shots missing, easy rear shots too, or maybe they... who knows, but I know that the Matra R.550s are good solid performers in the IRM arena and maybe some reworking of the stats needs to be done in order to get them on par with newer types. But as far as performance using the airbrakes (used burner sparingly this time) and the amount of energy produced by the BETA of course, is tremendous and using airbrakes makes flight more manageable and you can use that to bring your nose onto the target easier.

[busdriver 35]

I tried a few dogfights in a fictional 1980 exercises IAF vs USN using mainly stock aircraft, (along with some antiship attacks with Israeli A-4Ns against US warships) and results are rather interesting. F-15s own the sky against anything, outmatching the F-14 in BVR effectiveness and outmaneuvering the F-16 by powerplant.

The Eagle truly is King Kong WRT having a powerful radar. They could lock my little F-16A before I could generally paint them on my little biddy radar. Advantage Eagle. However...I felt pretty darn confident I could get to the merge if I was at low altitude (due to the V sub C notch in their radar). At medium to high altitude...defeating a face shot was problematic (was ACMI in your favor or not that day) did you "worm" effectively that day. Clear advantage to the Eagle, Tomcat & Hornet.

 

F-14s are surprisingly agile, even against F-16s, whose numbers are cut shorter before merging. While the F-16s are the most agile of all, they are rather less capable against other 4th gen fighters.

LOL...I never met another viper pilot that felt inferior to a guy in another jet. The F-18A gave me the biggest trouble...but they had shorter legs than us, so if they were hauling a CL tank that day, and I saw that at the merge...boy my fangs were out. If they were clean...I'd probably die in the phone booth, groveling in a nose high slow speed rolling scissors. BFM against the Hornet was like BFM against another Viper. But then they'd bingo out and go home. Regarding the F-16 vs F-14...the Tomcat is the world's largest airspeed indicator. Meaning you knew his energy state immediately. In the F-16 our BFM problem was defined by a simple flow chart. 1) Am I inside his turn circle? If Yes...go kill him. If No, get inside his turn circle and kill him. That's not hubris or ego, that is simply the way we trained. Once AIM-9Ls & Ms became more plentiful our options improved. Again I am speaking strictly as a former A model (Blk 10 & Blk 15) guy. You had good days and you had bad days, and some days you got luckier. The F-16 would still be my choice to go to war.

[+Heberth 159]

Me: Rafale C BETA with 4 x Matra R.550, gun

Opposition: Fulcrum-C with 4 x R-73 and 2 x R-27

 

I will probably go against the Super Hornet sometime but I'll start out with the Fulcrum. One thing I learned to keep from blacking out (may be game settings, waaaay too easy to black out) was to pop the airbrakes and maneuver, this helps keep your speed manageable and also works to get your nose on a target much easier. I managed to get into position for firing and it was a little close and the Matra didn't track. Second one a perfect six shot and it misses. The Fulcrum levels out and I pop him with a third. Overall the Rafale needs some work as a beta FM-wise or its just SF2:NA that's the issue or its just me that's the problem but once those problems are solved

 

Takeaways. I think honestly the modeling for French missiles is horrendous. The MICA IR missiles are pretty bad and easily are decoyed by flares. A previous (and unsuccessful) attempt with only four out of four shots missing, easy rear shots too, or maybe they... who knows, but I know that the Matra R.550s are good solid performers in the IRM arena and maybe some reworking of the stats needs to be done in order to get them on par with newer types. But as far as performance using the airbrakes (used burner sparingly this time) and the amount of energy produced by the BETA of course, is tremendous and using airbrakes makes flight more manageable and you can use that to bring your nose onto the target easier.

 

Great DACT as always! i agree, the French Mica need some work too, and about the Data.ini, use this one: not finished, but make you black out less and have a little bit more drag= less energy( the only problem is arround 800 km/h, the drag go to almost zero! wth is wrong?!)

 

RafaleC_DATA.rar

[+EricJ 3,994]

Lemme finish this one, could be something wrong with the whole Data.ini... maybe?

 

Me: 6 x Matra R.550 with gun

Opposition: F/A-18E with 2 x AIM-9x and 8 x AIM-120

 

Compared to the Fulcrum one above, the more you play with the beta the more "feel" for it you get. Sooo... I initially was on burner but after throttling down after a turn I popped the airbrakes and left the throttle at 44% (HUD shot shows it) and by that time I managed to get on the perch above the Super Bug and shoot him down with a Matra right in the engines. It should be noted that previously I was able to keep my nose on the Super steadily, as getting used to the Rafale after flying a heavier jet it requires some retraining to get a feel for how it handles.

 

Takeaways. It may be where the countermeasures are actually ejecting from that makes a big difference (and the fact the Super Hornet driver leveled out with me on a high six shot, perfect if you ask me) that affects of course missile tracking but... Where the Super Hornet pilot ended up shows maybe a visual arc restriction (which would be real) and I took advantage of it.

 

I think we should wait until an FM guru looks over it to fix the issues, if it stalls at 800km/h there is an issue...

[Slartibartfast 153]

Great reading guys... all of it nice to see a different perspective and a wonderful testing of a new beta model...

[turkeydriver 4]

The Eagle truly is King Kong WRT having a powerful radar. They could lock my little F-16A before I could generally paint them on my little biddy radar. Advantage Eagle. However...I felt pretty darn confident I could get to the merge if I was at low altitude (due to the V sub C notch in their radar). At medium to high altitude...defeating a face shot was problematic (was ACMI in your favor or not that day) did you "worm" effectively that day. Clear advantage to the Eagle, Tomcat & Hornet.

 

 

LOL...I never met another viper pilot that felt inferior to a guy in another jet. The F-18A gave me the biggest trouble...but they had shorter legs than us, so if they were hauling a CL tank that day, and I saw that at the merge...boy my fangs were out. If they were clean...I'd probably die in the phone booth, groveling in a nose high slow speed rolling scissors. BFM against the Hornet was like BFM against another Viper. But then they'd bingo out and go home. Regarding the F-16 vs F-14...the Tomcat is the world's largest airspeed indicator. Meaning you knew his energy state immediately. In the F-16 our BFM problem was defined by a simple flow chart. 1) Am I inside his turn circle? If Yes...go kill him. If No, get inside his turn circle and kill him. That's not hubris or ego, that is simply the way we trained. Once AIM-9Ls & Ms became more plentiful our options improved. Again I am speaking strictly as a former A model (Blk 10 & Blk 15) guy. You had good days and you had bad days, and some days you got luckier. The F-16 would still be my choice to go to war.

 

Hah you just lost your first fight with any F-14 nugget outta VF-101. First thing to get under your skin is to MANUALLY keep the wings swept past the merge at idle (wings swept you have insane pitch and a real life wing loading of 45-50 lbs/sqft-crunch those numbers!) then put it into ZONE 5 or or ZONE 3(F110 motors) and pull inside and outpitch your attacker for an easy AIM-9 or guns kill. It works great to unerve the other pilot who relies on judging the wing sweep. If you use sound BFM and manage your energy instead of relying on some 9g garbage to win the fight you should do well. Don't go high speed with a tomcat and don't go low speed unless you're a hornet. As long as you keep the fight above 400 kts and below Mach .95, you can make the F-14 work hard for a kill.

As far as the inside his turn circle-you must mean a clean F-16 with maybe a belly tank. Only at low altitude where your little wings work well with your high thrust and low weight. VF-32 vs Israeli F-16s did give many F-16 victories BUT ONLY when the JOs who would benefit most from the training were driving the jets. Thats one big thing that many people don't understand-in the navy, when prepping for a deployment, you spend the majority of your training on the new guys and just get your veterans requalled. So most exercises are with the JOs flying to get the benefit-this isn't an excuse, but a reality. The veteran good stick O-4s and aboves had no problem fighting them to an empty fuel state and keeping the fight neutral or winning. Too much internet space has been wasted on armchair pilots who clown on the F-14 in the BFM arena. There are many variables and yes the F-16 enters the fight with an advantage, but the F-16Ns cracked up and retired after 6 years due to F-14s making them work for it. Mind you the F-16N was the most powerful and maneuverable F-16 ever built.

 

All the above comments are for an IRL F-14 fight-I'm not sure how well the TW and TMF turkeys match up to the real thing. I just know the TW tomcats need a LOT more roll authority. The F-14 was no A-4 when it comes to rolling, but it does 220 degrees a second as long as you're not super slow.

Edited April 24, 2012 by turkeydriver

[+SupGen 78]

turkeydriver, we would like more, slower and in depth, please.

[macelena 1,070]

The Eagle truly is King Kong WRT having a powerful radar. They could lock my little F-16A before I could generally paint them on my little biddy radar. Advantage Eagle. However...I felt pretty darn confident I could get to the merge if I was at low altitude (due to the V sub C notch in their radar). At medium to high altitude...defeating a face shot was problematic (was ACMI in your favor or not that day) did you "worm" effectively that day. Clear advantage to the Eagle, Tomcat & Hornet.

 

Indeed, low altitude is the way to go. I tried with F-104Gs against all the formers, and while the Starfighter is a bit overrated in the game, it is capable of knocking them out (provided that their winders are reliable, i mean J,N and Ps instead of Limas, wich seem prone to be fooled by flares ingame) the fact is the f-15 owns the sky anytime.

 

LOL...I never met another viper pilot that felt inferior to a guy in another jet. The F-18A gave me the biggest trouble...but they had shorter legs than us, so if they were hauling a CL tank that day, and I saw that at the merge...boy my fangs were out. If they were clean...I'd probably die in the phone booth, groveling in a nose high slow speed rolling scissors. BFM against the Hornet was like BFM against another Viper. But then they'd bingo out and go home. Regarding the F-16 vs F-14...the Tomcat is the world's largest airspeed indicator. Meaning you knew his energy state immediately. In the F-16 our BFM problem was defined by a simple flow chart. 1) Am I inside his turn circle? If Yes...go kill him. If No, get inside his turn circle and kill him. That's not hubris or ego, that is simply the way we trained. Once AIM-9Ls & Ms became more plentiful our options improved. Again I am speaking strictly as a former A model (Blk 10 & Blk 15) guy. You had good days and you had bad days, and some days you got luckier. The F-16 would still be my choice to go to war.

 

Never meant that, F-16 is the best in the game and my favourite for any situation (except trying to knock down Backfires before they loose a missile miles away), hands down, but when it´s a single viper against two or four tomcats, it is hard to get into a good firing position without being painted by any of their wingmen. Indeed, the flying low till merge with the F-104G tactics only failed, and proved almost impossible to do, against the F-16. In example, the best red fighter in stock installs is the Flogger-K, wich can ruin your day even against an Eagle, but are piece of cake on a Viper. I really love that plane.

[Caesar 305]

In game, I haven't had much problem killing the F-16 or multiple F-16's at the same time at visual range in the F-14B.

 

http://combatace.com/topic/62762-sf2-series-dact-reports/page__st__260

 

The thing is, when we say "the F-14" there's a bit of a distinction between F-14A and F-14B/D. That same Tomcat driver who revealed the "wings in, vanes out at 250 KIAS" trick to screw with his F-16 adversaries also opined that the trick would only work once if the F-16 guy had a brain in his head, and that with equal pilots, the F-16 should beat the F-14A every time at visual range. Against a B or D, his opinion was that the Viper made a "nice lunch" right after the merge. In terms of slow-speed, one F-14B driver recounted that he had no idea how much harder he could have pressed against an IAF F-16 (that he defeated by running it out of gas) until the debriefing. He got the fight slow (100-120 KIAS) but thought the Viper had more nose pointing authority than it had (it was pegged) and so didn't press his advantages as hard for fear of giving the Viper a snap-shot, when it was he who could have pushed and got the solution.

 

Of course, as we all know, it is the pilot/aircrew who wins the fight, and in spite of the "A" Tomcat's disadvantages, there were plenty of its crews that beat the F-16 at visual, and it is certain that the B/D did not win every time against the Viper!

[+EricJ 3,994]

Me: F-16C Block 50 with 6 x AIM-9M, gun, centerline tank

Opposition: Four F-14A(82)s with 4 x AIM-9L and 4 x AIM-7M (I think) each, guns

 

Started off neutral and how I turn into the attackers (since I start "neutral", with their backs towards me all the time) and when I tried it to the left, I eventually got shot down. Did the normal turn to the right, heard the high growl (lock) of the missile, fired, and killed the first one. I think at that point I targeted a second one and eventually made a shot (don't remember it all) and killed the second one. Then the third one tried to spike me with a 9L and managed to miss along with some flare dumping, but the more I think about it was probably luck, my first bout had one fly right past my nose... I target him when I eventually come around on him and eventually we get nose on and I try and reflex fire and still miss, two more 'winders left... Eventually I maneuver onto him and fire my fourth 9M at him and kill him. Number four sorta just tried to get me into an energy circle and probably lost energy and I slowed down slightly as he tried to force an overshoot, and despite being on afterburner I managed to stay behind him and eventually killed him with a Mike 'winder in the tailpipe.

 

Takeaways. As said before you have to be aware of what's going on with you. As you'll see below an overhead map showing the two remaining Tomcats. What I can think of when I was doing the engagement macelena was to just worry about reducing as many fighters as possible at the merge. Since I was at the "merge" I placed faith in the 9M and in the first few seconds I got a kill. Of course I get the benefit of a more nimbler jet but even the TW Turkey isn't something to just sit there and take lightly. As turkeydriver mentioned and demonstrated by Ceasar the Tom isn't a joke. But I digress, the key points is to worry about these things at one time:

 

1) Reducing numbers

2) Working for the shot on a closer bird

 

Number 2 against multiple MF birds isn't recommended sometimes as they like to stay around the periphery and snipe at you, at least that's my read on the engagement from the previous to this one. Two will engage while two will circle like vultures. Blind fire... only when you know you have a shot, as there's a graphics bug at the beginning with the mode in AA mode. Know your weapon systems and you will be better at your game, because part of maneuvering is to simply give your weapon the best parameters for a good shot. Most of my kills with the 9X are HUD shots while in the rare cases I'll do a HOBS shot. The 9X is a great weapon but that's my thinking on the matter anyway.

 

3) Speed management

 

The thing with the Viper is that it's a rocket with wings that's guided by you. It has a tendency to overshoot therefore setting you up for a kill by them. And also your turn radius will be higher due to that speed, don't "turn and burn" all the time, as said keep it fast but also "turnable" speed as well to keep you in the fight. Brakes, no burner, etc. help in getting your nose on target, hard turns due to SF2:NA's over-g problem is manageable with stick usage, etc.

 

4) Keep your eyes on the threats. If it seems like you got a second, take it by looking at the overhead map, it'll refocus your energies in planning the next move.

 

By the way that's what was going on my head when I was doing the engagement. Unfortunately there isn't an ACMI program that works with Strike Fighters 2 for people to nitpick but sometimes if it works and doesn't get you killed, but kills the bad guy, works in my book. And maybe hit ALT+D to remove your bottom left information if you don't already. Even with it on I don't look there during ACM due to habit. And a good reason why multiple bird engagements make these DACT engagements "disjointed" when I get down and type, it's that much information going through your mind that causes you to not remember much.

[Caesar 305]

Ok, gang, and here we have the flip side of the coin. Guns only dogfight, 1 F-14A_82 vs. 4 F-16 Block 50's, all "clean."

 

Fight started neutral (at the merge), I plugged in the blower, pulled into the F-16's, which had split into two groups. As best I can distinguish it was a "bait" group and a "kill group" since I ran down the first F-16, who was flying relatively straight, as his buddies pulled towards my tail. They were a bit late, since the first guy was predictable. Splash one, and I see -2 "bait" listing towards me. Again, easy set up, Splash 2.

 

Splash 1

 

Splash 2

 

Now is where it gets interesting. The "kill" group is on my tails, but I've built up so much smack, they are trying to catch up. One has gone high, in an effort to come down on my Tomcat, while the other has stayed about co-altitude. Pull about 8g to port to try to get the first Viper neutral to my 3/9 line. Because I'm burning more energy than him, my turn rate is increasing, and I am successfully getting him to neutral, then slightly inside his turn, but way outside of guns range, and not in a distance that I can capitalize on the position. Because I know that killer #2 was above me, I check to see where he is, and WHAT HO! Homeboy is ahead of my Tomcat, turning left, behind killer #1! (I'm guessing he had a LOT of energy from the chase, came downstairs, and massively overshot, since he was still turning left, adjusting his altitude) I check killer #1 and note that he is still a ways away, and with more than 180 degrees of turn to threaten me - I can kill this guy if I do it quick!

 

 

 

Close on -3, noting -4's position. -3 starts turning into me, so I follow, then notice I have a little bit too much Vc, so I pull the engines from burner as I'm turning into him. Let off on the stick a bit, get good lead and zzzip! Kill #3 - at this point, the Hawkeye clears me, but there is still an F-16 out there. Fuel state is around 10,000 pounds. Ok, so that set up probably put the last Viper on or near my tail. Check for him and yep, he's back there, but fortunately, not in position yet, so I go vertical, hoping to start a scissors, where I can use my flaps to out curl the F-16. Unfortunately, this doesn't work - As I pirouette the Tomcat above the F-16, I burn too much energy, and the fight flattens as a low-altitude energy circle.

 

Splash 3

 

Energy Circle

 

This goes on for about 6 minutes, with me trying a couple things to break the energy circle. I'm not super confident I can reverse and pull into the F-16, because I'm not in an F-14B and don't have the "push" the GE engines give, but after about the first two and a half minutes of this garbage, I try it anyhow. Flaps at full, rudder roll and reverse into the F-16. We get nose-on each other at nearly the same time, and I'm in a bigger jet - not smart for guns. After we pass, I try to roll high and onto the F-16's tail, but my rate is too slow, and we are back in a one-circle energy circle.

 

Trying to Break the Energy Circle

 

I try to drag the circle low - nope, I try to let off the stick to gain energy, then pull hard - nope, I try to let off the stick, gain energy and attempt a vertical press - get behind and again, nope. The fight has stalemated. However, something happens; the F-16, reverses, levels off and begins to run! Hit the "debug" he's outta gas! I complete my circle, get on his tail and run him down. The AI will still fight if it's out of fuel and you are on its six, so the F-16 begins a vertical pull. I have a lot of closure, so I pop the breaks, cut the throttles and follow him. I nearly overshoot, perform a high yo-yo, and stand on the rudder to keep the nose threatening. As the yo-yo is complete, I'm in good firing position, get the pipper on the F-16 and loose a set of Vulcan rounds his way. These damage the F-16 and light it up. A second burst seals the deal, and the wreckage crashes into the desert floor.

 

Outta' Gas!

 

Splash 4

 

 

 

Fight time: 13 minutes 11 seconds.

 

Takeaways: The bait and kill tactic really doesn't work if you're in a gun fight - two of my kills were practically free, while the third was a matter of trying to maintain SA, and checking at just the right moment. The last kill, which took the longest, probably would have been a lot easier in the F-14B - that reversal with the powerful GE engines helped me inside of the Rafale, and probably would have helped me inside the F-16 by sustaining higher rate in a smaller circle. As it stands, I was able to run the last F-16 out of gas, run him down, and stick with him long enough to definitively kill him.

 

The kicker, here, is that it was a gunfight. If I had recklessly chased down the first group of F-16's with missiles, they'd have shot me in the ass the first chance they'd get. That would have been more of a "thin their numbers" scenario, hopefully bag 2, then work the 2v1 like I had before, but with less powerful engines. Rather, I'd prefer sort and shoot them at long range, even if I got them down to 1, it would be a hell of a lot easier than trying to start at the merge with, say, 4 Phoenix (useless at that range), 2 Sparrow (more useful) and 2 Sidewinder (nearly useless against flares at current patch levels, though EricJ seems to have used them to good effect).

 

In that regard, I'd say the game mimics reality; generally speaking in an F-14A, unless you are a damn fine stick, you don't want to be driving around at visual against the F-16. In the B/D, it is a bit of a different story, and you can more easily press your advantages and fight a good fight, with better sustained turning performance, acceleration, etc.