Russian soldiers/pilots in Vietnam?

[MAKO69 186]

There is a youtube link that confirms Russian soldiers fought along w/NVA troops.

 

 

article from yahoo questions

Edited May 31, 2012 by MAKO69

[jeanba 1,920]

According to "Clash", a Russian isntructor was shot down with his trainee by a Phantom onboard a 2 seater Mig21

[+Gepard 11,356]

Yeah, that is the "strange" kind of kills which american fighter pilots often use.

The real story is, that the MiG-21U was heading home after a training mission when it was attacked by F-4. THe soviet instructor pilot took over the control and evaded all missiles which the Phantoms shot on the MiG. When the MiG runs out of fuel he gave the oder to eject and left the plane with his vietnamese comrade. When the plane went down without pilots and engine power it was shooten down by the Phantoms. Only american rules count such incidents as a "Kill".

 

And by the way, your source is not reliable. Why? The writer stated that he had interviewed a former VietCong, who said ..... bla bla etc. VietCong was in South Vietnam in North Vietnam it was NVA. MiG's does not operated in the south till spring 1975.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Gepard

[MAKO69 186]

Yeah, that is the "strange" kind of kills which american fighter pilots often use.

The real story is, that the MiG-21U was heading home after a training mission when it was attacked by F-4. THe soviet instructor pilot took over the control and evaded all missiles which the Phantoms shot on the MiG. When the MiG runs out of fuel he gave the oder to eject and left the plane with his vietnamese comrade. When the plane went down without pilots and engine power it was shooten down by the Phantoms. Only american rules count such incidents as a "Kill".

 

And by the way, your source is not reliable. Why? The writer stated that he had interviewed a former VietCong, who said ..... bla bla etc. VietCong was in South Vietnam in North Vietnam it was NVA. MiG's does not operated in the south till spring 1975.

 

A little bitter Gepard? You are right about VietCong and NVA but, to most Americans at that time in our history they were seen to be the same and to many still are commies, the enemy, the bad guys, allies to the Soviet Union. I am not saying that myself that was just the belief of most US citizens especially at the start of the conflict. I feel the Vietnam conflict was a wast of money, resources, and most of all Humane life on all sides. Talking to many vets from that era at the local VFW Hall some, not all are remorseful for what happened it was a political puppet war w/Russia. This was a topic I started to get people thinking about the Cold War and how hot it really was. We all know that the Russians had pilots flying in N. Korea during that war, and during the War of Attrition, five Soviet-piloted Egyptian MiG-21s were downed by Israeli Mirage III and F-4 Phantoms.

 

More thought provoking stuff:

 

" An F-105 Thud pilot, Jack Broughton, was the author of the book Thud Ridge, where he saw a VPAF F-6 (Chinese MiG-19 Farmer clone) flown by a Soviet pilot. He looked up close and personal with the pilot and saw his blond hair and blue eyes. It was obvious that he was a Soviet."

 

"No one really knows who "Colonel Tomb" or "Toon" was. He certainly did not have 13 AA kills as was originally believed. Nguyen Van Coc is the VNAF's highest scoring ace, with 9 claimed, and 7 U.S. confirmed AA victories. Van Coc did survive the war.there were NO VPAF pilots ranked Colonel in 1972 "Tomb" nor "Toon" does NOT exist in the Vietnamese language. The closest name that comes close to resemblance is "Tuan"

Either Steve Ritchie or Randy Cunningham who publicly stated "I don't believe every pilot we faced in Vietnam had tan skin, slanted brown eyes, and black hair..."

 

 

When a pilot out flies his advasary forcing him to prang the ground and crash because he got behind on his S.A. Shoot him down with a missle or pepper his plane with bullets till he bails out or blows up, or even running him out of gas so he has to leave the plane,............You can call me a strange American but, all are kills in my book.

Or shame on the strange American F-4 crew for attacking an enemy plane that was on a training mission.

Edited May 31, 2012 by MAKO69

[fallenphoenix1986 603]

Don't see how that wouldn't be a "kill", the F-4 forced the MiG into using up its reserves and was therefor unable to get home so crashed... ergo the actions of the F-4 pilot led directly to the NVAF being down one MiG.

 

 

Craig

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

Only american rules count such incidents as a "Kill".

 

Not just Americans. An Israeli RF-4E crew were awarded a kill when an interceptor (I think it was either Iraqi or Syrian) crashed due to target fixation.

 

 

The US has known about Russians operating with VPAF, NVA et al, for a long time. Col. Vadim Petrovich Shchbakov has been recognised as a Soviet Ace who flew Mig-21s for the VPAF as a pilot instructor against US forces in Vietnam.

Edited May 31, 2012 by SayWhatt

[+Gepard 11,356]

I dont say, that the soviets wasnt there. In contrary. During my military time, i heared some stories about it.

 

But a lot of statements are simply rubbish. Take this:

 

" An F-105 Thud pilot, Jack Broughton, was the author of the book Thud Ridge, where he saw a VPAF F-6 (Chinese MiG-19 Farmer clone) flown by a Soviet pilot. He looked up close and personal with the pilot and saw his blond hair and blue eyes. It was obvious that he was a Soviet."

 

He saw his blonde hair! Wow? And i stupid boy always thought that the pilots had helmets on their heads. He saw his bule eyes! Again WOW!!!! And i stupid boy always thought that pilots had their pilot goggles.

Maybe american eyes are better than the rest of the world and they can see trough plastics and leather helmets to realize which color the hair of an other pilot has. And perhaps they also see through a pilots goggle to realize the color of the eyes of an other pilot. Maybe ... I cant do it.

If you ask me which color have the eyes of someone who is 20 meters away, then i have my problems to realize it. At 50 meters i'm happy if i can realize the white in the eye of on other, but ro realize the color of the pupille ... No way, this i cant do.

 

The story of Col Tomb was always an american story. It came up when pictures of a MiG-21 were seen with 13 (?) litte red stars. But the western observers mixed the western credit system with the vietnamese system. While in west the pilot was credited with a kill, the vietnamese credited the plane. The 13 kill marks does not mean, that one single pilot had 13 kills, but that the plane was flown in 13 successfull combats.

 

Mako. You ask wheter i'm a little bit bitter. You are right. When i grew up i was sick to get to much "red light" nonesense, but i'm also sick to hear "back, blue or whatever light" nonesense.

I'm not bitter about the fact, that is said, that the soviets were in vietnam, its the kind how it is said and how true and false informations were mixed and all on the level of the yellow press.

 

By the way SayWhatt, the guy you mention was a SAM operator (hope that it is the correct english term), not a pilot. But it is true, that soviet SAM operators fired missiles during Vietnam war and shot down american planes. And it is also true, that the vietnamese SAM crews were trained by east german standard procedures and timeframes (only difference, they needed up to 3 times more personal to do the same job like a east german crew, and they had pure women SAM crews which we had not had)

[MAKO69 186]

I dont say, that the soviets wasnt there. In contrary. During my military time, i heared some stories about it.

 

But a lot of statements are simply rubbish. Take this:

 

" An F-105 Thud pilot, Jack Broughton, was the author of the book Thud Ridge, where he saw a VPAF F-6 (Chinese MiG-19 Farmer clone) flown by a Soviet pilot. He looked up close and personal with the pilot and saw his blond hair and blue eyes. It was obvious that he was a Soviet."

 

He saw his blonde hair! Wow? And i stupid boy always thought that the pilots had helmets on their heads. He saw his bule eyes! Again WOW!!!! And i stupid boy always thought that pilots had their pilot goggles.

Maybe american eyes are better than the rest of the world and they can see trough plastics and leather helmets to realize which color the hair of an other pilot has. And perhaps they also see through a pilots goggle to realize the color of the eyes of an other pilot. Maybe ... I cant do it.

If you ask me which color have the eyes of someone who is 20 meters away, then i have my problems to realize it. At 50 meters i'm happy if i can realize the white in the eye of on other, but ro realize the color of the pupille ... No way, this i cant do.

 

The story of Col Tomb was always an american story. It came up when pictures of a MiG-21 were seen with 13 (?) litte red stars. But the western observers mixed the western credit system with the vietnamese system. While in west the pilot was credited with a kill, the vietnamese credited the plane. The 13 kill marks does not mean, that one single pilot had 13 kills, but that the plane was flown in 13 successfull combats.

 

Mako. You ask wheter i'm a little bit bitter. You are right. When i grew up i was sick to get to much "red light" nonesense, but i'm also sick to hear "back, blue or whatever light" nonesense.

I'm not bitter about the fact, that is said, that the soviets were in vietnam, its the kind how it is said and how true and false informations were mixed and all on the level of the yellow press.

 

By the way SayWhatt, the guy you mention was a SAM operator (hope that it is the correct english term), not a pilot. But it is true, that soviet SAM operators fired missiles during Vietnam war and shot down american planes. And it is also true, that the vietnamese SAM crews were trained by east german standard procedures and timeframes (only difference, they needed up to 3 times more personal to do the same job like a east german crew, and they had pure women SAM crews which we had not had)

 

 

The thread is tittled sodliers/pilots meaning both ground support and air "both", I posted those statements to provoke thoughts not to piss you off buddy. What side of the wall did you grow up on?(I think its obvious) You come off proud of the fact that the Russian's and East Germans assisted in shooting down American planes.

Why you hatin', just started a thread to stir up frienly conversations, why you so defensive the Cold War is over, the wall was torn down, Isn't this one happy community here? I am sorry you think America is "strange" in its ways. After all Beers and Migs are made for pounding

 

P.S. Anyways how many feet is 20 meters?

Edited May 31, 2012 by MAKO69

[+ST0RM 145]

Manuever kills are still credited. Look through reports from WWII, on both sides.

 

An EF-111 crew was credited with a manuever kill against an Iraqi Mirage F1 during ODS. Cesar Rodriguez did the same against a MiG-29. It crashed evading his missiles. KILL!

[+hgbn 91]

 

 

P.S. Anyways how many feet is 20 meters?

 

65,5

[macelena 1,070]

It´s a kill, not as shiny as a head on gun burst thru the windglass, but a kill.

 

It is clear that the communist countries, at least before the sino-russian split, worked together against any western country, wether Korea, Vietnam or the Middle East. Despite the outcome, it didn´t work that bad. The VPAF made an epic job against the most powerful assembly of air forces in decades, with the help of Soviets, Koreans and Chinese. The Air Defense network set up by the communists in Syria and Egypt had the best tactical air force ever in serious trouble since the War of Attrition until the Lebanon War. Who knows the bloodshed avoided by the Camp David agreements.

 

In the end, the massive and coordinated "strategic" oriented firepower of the US in Vietnam and the shocking blows of the IDFAF made them win (technically, the US won the war over Vietnam with Linebacker I&II)

Edited May 31, 2012 by macelena

[MAKO69 186]

65,5

 

 

Thnx hgbn I know, I was just being an ignorant American

[+Gepard 11,356]

With "strange" (I set the word in " " with good reasons) i mean the kind how the american count their kills. In the most cases it is the perfect way of self cheating. And this is dangerous, because you get the tendecy to underestimate the enemy.

This tendency of wrong counting kills is very old. Already in WW1 the Entente pilots counted a shot down german plane twice if two pilots fired on it or tripple if it was a 3vs1 dogfight. Its very good for statistics, but in reality the opposing forces are stronger then they should be. During WW2 the concept of shared kills was introduced but in reality it was often very different.

I think i have told the story often enough here in this forum, but i will do it again to explain what i mean.

The uncle of my mother was fighter pilot in the Reichsluftverteidigung. He had flown the Me-410 and Me-110. During one intercept mission he was attacked by 4 american fighters (his wingman had to fight the other 4 Mustangs). Both german planes were shooten down, both crews escaped by parachute, one american pilot tried to shoot on the men on the parachutes, but missed.

At this day only 2 german planes were lost, but 8 american fighter pilots were credited with one kill. What means, that on the paper 6 planes were shooten down more as in reality.

Same procedure in Korea. A MiG-15 was counted as shooten down if the gun camera showed 6 hits. Problem. Often the MiG-15 came home with 50 and more holes in the body, the record was over 250. And after a short repair the birds were in the air again.

On the other side the american counting reduced the number of shot down own planes artificaly. So they got the fantastic 14:1 kill ratio. In the reality it was 1:1 against soviet flown MiG-15 and 6:1 against chinese MiG-15 units.

 

If you ask on which side of the wall i grew up. I think it is obviesly, it was the eastern part. Thatswhy i know soviet technic by first hand, know their strenght and weaknesses. And after the change i had the chance to get hands on western technic.

And so i can say, that both sides have their strenght and weaknesses. But to overestimate the own strenght and underestimate the enemies strenght can become deadly.

Look to Iraq. During operation Iraqi Freedom in 2003 the US forces lost no single M1 Abrams. During occupation time, when the iraqis started the fighting, the US lost per week a M1, because they underestimated the enemy.

Now im on the other side on the wall (and this is good so), but i dont want that we underestimate our opponents. Thatswhy im very critical with "shining reports".

[+hgbn 91]

I think all sides is doing this during wartime, regardless of color of their side. A good kill / loss ratio on paper boost morale of your own troops. A good example is Korea where communist forces claimed over 1000 kills for a very low loss ratio to their own accounts, I think no matter who is giving the numbers that those can't be trusted as totally accurate. The first casualty in any war is the truth.

[Toryu 156]

You come off proud of the fact that the Russian's and East Germans assisted in shooting down American planes.

 

I don't think he's any more "proud" than Americans being proud of shooting down VPAF-airplanes.

 

Anyway, a sense of pride in killing somebody is pretty much out of place as far as I'm concerned.

 

 

 

@Gepard:

 

Over-claiming kills (kills doesn'r neccessarily mean "Abschuss" - non-german countries have been somewhat more liberal in awarding "kills") has ever been an issue in any war and on any side.

Allied planes having shot down more fighters than the Luftwaffe had on total strenght in one day has frequently been reported.

 

It's nothing to lose any sleep over.

One has to realize that some people (especially pilots) will never let facts get in the way of a good story.

Hence the report about "blond, low-tanned" vietnamese fighter-pilots that allegedly flew naked/ no helmet, etc.

 

 

@Topic:

 

There have been soviet advisers in Vietnam for quite some time (much like their american counterparts).

If they actually flew combat-missions is somewhat less researched.

Given the fact that VPAF interceptors concentrated in high-speed intercepts rather than long-lasting dogfights, it's very hard to establish any facs.

Then again - who says that the soviet advisers had to be any better than the Vietnamese?

The soviet performance during the war of attrition was nothing to write home about anyway...

[+Dave 2,322]

Same procedure in Korea. A MiG-15 was counted as shooten down if the gun camera showed 6 hits. Problem. Often the MiG-15 came home with 50 and more holes in the body, the record was over 250. And after a short repair the birds were in the air again.

On the other side the american counting reduced the number of shot down own planes artificaly. So they got the fantastic 14:1 kill ratio. In the reality it was 1:1 against soviet flown MiG-15 and 6:1 against chinese MiG-15 units.

 

Where did you get that information? No where I have ever found anywhere and even in the USAF Museum archives does it say 6 hits = a kill. As far as the 14:1 kills ratio, its was more like 11:1. But 1:1 and 6:1 is pure BS. MIg Alley was owned by the USAF and thats a historical fact. The problem with you being on the Eastern side Gepard is you wall were spoon fed ton of bullshit on a regular basis. Dare I say brain washed? No not that extreme but Soviet and the Warsaw Pack were masters of dis-inforamtion, even to its own forces. Does the US do that? Yes to a varying degree, look at Vietnam....but no where as near the magnitude the Soviet Blocs did.

[+whiteknight06604 935]

Also in Vietnam we hamstrung ourselves with idiotic rules of engagement that let the enemy get advantages that in a general war never would have happened. The NVA knew where we would not strike for political reasons and staged SAMS and suppies there. had we bombed in a millitary way rather than a political way it would have been extreamly one sided. linbacker 2 is a perfect example. Dropped more bombs on the north in a week or 2 than did every combatant combined durring all of WW2.sent the north straight to the peace table. had we done that from the begining the North would have crumbled and the millions in the south murdered in the comunist takeover would most likely be alive.

[Toryu 156]

F-86 vs MiG-15 kill ratio acc Wiki:

 

By the end of hostilities, F-86 pilots were credited with shooting down 792 MiGs for a loss of only 78 Sabres, a victory ratio of 10:1.[31] More recent research by Dorr, Lake and Thompson has claimed the actual ratio is closer to 2:1.[32] The Soviets claimed to have downed over 600 Sabres,[33] together with the Chinese claims, although these are thought by some to be an overcount as they cannot be reconciled with the 78 Sabres recorded as lost by the US.[34] A recent RAND report[35] made reference to "recent scholarship" of F-86 v MiG-15 combat over Korea and concluded that the actual kill:loss ratio for the F-86 was 1.8:1 overall, and likely closer to 1.3:1 against MiGs flown by Soviet pilots. Of the 41 American pilots who earned the designation of ace during the Korean war, all but one flew the F-86 Sabre, the exception being a Navy Vought F4U Corsair night fighter pilot.

 

Sources:

 

32: Dorr, Robert F., Jon Lake and Warren E. Thompson. Korean War Aces. London: Osprey Publishing, 2005.

 

35: Stillion, John and Scott Perdue. "Air Combat Past, Present and Future." Project Air Force, Rand, August 2008. Retrieved: 11 March 2009.

 

 

Research during the Cold War has been almost impossible due to the archives being inaccessible to outsiders.

After the end of the CW, research done my multiple historians has indicated that the initial overclaimin on both sides had no factual basis.

[+Gepard 11,356]

Some data to the soviets in Korea:

The 324.IAD (Fighterdivision)

6738 missions

claimed to have shot down 215 planes

lost 26 planes (written off) and 9 pilots (killed in combat)

top scorer Yevgenij Pepeljayev with 109 mission, 38 dogfights and 19 shot down planes (15 kills are confirmed by american sources)

 

303. IAD

unknown number of missions

claimed to have shot down 302 enemy planes

lost between 34 and 50 planes (written off) [there are various sources with different lost figures. Some state, that only 30 MiG-15 were lost, but two of the 3 fighter regiments (523.IAP + 18.GwIAP) lost 34 planes (16+18)]

18 pilots were killed in combat

top scorer Nikolay Sutyagin with 21 kills (13 can confirmed by american sources)

 

 

This 2 divisons operated in 1951 till January (?) 1952 in Korea. They were equipped with WW2 veterans, which already had fought against Nazi Germany and Japan. The later divisions which replaced the veterans were mostly "green" and had fewer pilots with combat experience. The results thatswhy became disappointing. The american system of constant replacement of pilots with an included learning by doing phase was much superior to the soviet system of replacing entire units. So the know how of the veterans could be learned much more effective by the rookies, then by the soviets.

The Koljas learned this lesson very slowly. But in early 1953 the pilots of the elite divisions became trainers of the next soviet fighter divisions which were to deploy to Korea in late 1953 with MiG-17. In the memoires of Pepeljajew it sound like this course was a soviet style "Top Gun school" (By the way, the USSR had such a school, if i remember correctly in Turkmenistan) The caesefire of Panmunjon stopped this activities.

 

Were are the informations from? This are mostly from the memoires of Pepeljajew. You must not forget, that the soviets denied till the end of the USSR that soviet pilots had fought in Korea. There were never kill : loss ratios published. In contrary to the western press it was in no soviet book to read what happend in Korea. In the books i could get in the GDR , you could read between the lines (i hope this is the correct english term) that there must have been something, but never a figure or a ratio. [Ergo nix brainwashing during commy times was all top secret]

All data which were published after the break down of the USSR came from former internal soviet reports. This reports were "top secret" in the Cold war time. And it is doubtfull, that the soviet military had cheaten itself by extreme overclaiming.

But there is also the word of Pepeljajew who said: "Not all was is called a kill was really a kill."

 

Dave, the source of the "6hits are 1 kill" rule i will try to find in my archive. Could be a little bit timeconsuming.

 

 

EDIT:

 

one source i have found very quickly, but there are more which i'm still looking for:

 

Jörg Friedrich "Yalu"

Propylaeen Verlag published 2007

ISBN 978-3-549-07338-4

 

Page 414

 

"Ein Volltreffer wurde offiziell gewertet, wenn die "gun-camera" sieben Einschüsse oder drei Brände registrierte."

translated

" A kill was officially counted if the "gun-camera" registered 7 hits or 3 burns."

Edited June 1, 2012 by Gepard

[JediMaster 451]

Hole =! hit. One bullet hit can cause multiple holes from ricochets, debris, entry/exit hole, etc. So I can imagine 6 bullets causing say 30 holes.

[Toryu 156]

True so, Jedi, but you'll have to admit that at the speeds and ranges fought, the 50 cal round sufferes performance-wise.

Even with APIT-ammo, the propabilityof bringing-down another fighter is pretty low. It takes a lot of hits or fewer but very decisive ones to bring-down even a fighter-sized target at those speeds and ranges.

That's due to the 50 cal's reliance on kinetic energy other than larger caliber's chemical energy (read: HE on larger calibers actually means that something explodes!).

 

 

Apparently, many israeli F-4 pilots with previous Mirage III-experience found the M61 (20mm) to be inadequate for A-A gunnery.

They preferred the twin Aden 30mm machine-cannons of the Mirage.

[MAKO69 186]

Where did you get that information? No where I have ever found anywhere and even in the USAF Museum archives does it say 6 hits = a kill. As far as the 14:1 kills ratio, its was more like 11:1. But 1:1 and 6:1 is pure BS. MIg Alley was owned by the USAF and thats a historical fact. The problem with you being on the Eastern side Gepard is you wall were spoon fed ton of bulls**t on a regular basis. Dare I say brain washed? No not that extreme but Soviet and the Warsaw Pack were masters of dis-inforamtion, even to its own forces. Does the US do that? Yes to a varying degree, look at Vietnam....but no where as near the magnitude the Soviet Blocs did.

 

 

Also in Vietnam we hamstrung ourselves with idiotic rules of engagement that let the enemy get advantages that in a general war never would have happened. The NVA knew where we would not strike for political reasons and staged SAMS and suppies there. had we bombed in a millitary way rather than a political way it would have been extreamly one sided. linbacker 2 is a perfect example. Dropped more bombs on the north in a week or 2 than did every combatant combined durring all of WW2.sent the north straight to the peace table. had we done that from the begining the North would have crumbled and the millions in the south murdered in the comunist takeover would most likely be alive.

 

 

 

Both you guys hit the nail on the head.

[+Gepard 11,356]

so now the figures i have found so far to Korea:

 

 

During Korea war the american press and the Pentagon had spoken of a 14 : 1 kill ratio. In a report written in 1954 for the Fiscal Year 1953 it was officially said, that 792 MiG-15 were downed while 76 F-86 were lost. Its a ratio now of 10.4 : 1.

 

(This is an extract of the paper where the always stated 792MiG's and 76 Sabres come from.)

 

 

 

Some years later the data were changed again to 757 MiG's shot down and 103 F-86 lost. Its a ratio of 7.3 : 1, what was only the half of the ratio which was claimed during the war.

 

On an other place it is stated, that 118 Sabre pilots were killed in action and 26 were missed in action. If we add this numbers we get 144 lost F-86 pilots. And i think that it is impossible to lose a pilot of a single seat plane without to lose the plane.

If we now calculate the number of MiG-15 which russian sources admit since the break down of the USSR (335 planes and 124 pilots) and the number of lost american F-86 pilots (144), so we get a ratio 2.3 : 1 for the Sabre or 1 : 1.2 for the soviet pilots.

 

There were 26 soviet aces with a total score of 249 shot down american planes. But there were much more soviet pilots in Korea and it is more than possible that this guys had some kills too.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Gepard

[ironroad 218]

To address the original topic...

 

There are few a books out there that indicate US forces came across either white and/or tall blonde hair blue-eyed men traveling with groups of NVA regulars or VC/NLF troops. Most of the accounts are from US personnel that operated away from populated areas in the western part of Vietnam and/or near Laos and Cambodia.

 

One such account is mentioned here...

Ripcord: Screaming Eagles Under Siege, Vietnam 1970

 

Could they have been Russian or Warsaw Pact? Western defectors? Members of the Fonda family?

 

 

It was also suspected that Russians were operating many of North Vietnam's SA-2 sites during the earlier years of the war, and Russian picket trawlers were constantly in the war zone providing early warning to Hanoi about incoming American airstrikes or ship movements throughout the duration of the war.

 

The Russians and North Vietnam had a somewhat closer and more trusting relationship, than Hanoi had with China (or any other nation). So such accounts aren't too surprising.

Edited June 4, 2012 by ironroad

[Baz_GFA 0]

I guess it comes down to which sources you trust. I know which ones I don't trust.