Turkish F-4 down on the Border with Syria....

[+Julhelm 266]

Prove it!! Or is you saying that all Muslims is per definition = Islamic fundamentalists??

I'll let you prove me wrong by naming any arab state that is a western style secular democracy.

 

Oh look, could it be that in the middle east where the only education most people encounter is quran studies, democracy invariably ends up voting religious nutters into power?

[+hgbn 91]

Well Turkey is mostly Islamic by belief and is located in the same region. So I'm not buying it.

[+Julhelm 266]

Turkey also has an out and out islamist government elected by democratic vote whom are mostly kept in check by the constitution and the military. So yeah.

[Derk 265]

Prove it!! Or is you saying that all Muslims is per definition = Islamic fundamentalists??

 

 

Hm Henrik, this is slippery ground..... A few real fanatic islamists can terrorize a whole moderate majority into into puppets of a fundamentalist regime... They play their own rules I'm afraid ..... As an example, right on your and my doorstep : were all the Germans right away Nazi's in the beginning ?

[+whiteknight06604 934]

I don't think this should be about fixing Syria but taking out Assad either killing the POS or getting him in front of a court for crimes against humanity. if another POS takes his place juyst let it be known if they start to murder their own people then they will meet the same fate. Syria has been nothing but a trouble maker for decade. whether destroying/destabilizing Lebanon or supporting every terror group that wants to lash out at Israel.If the Syrian people want to rise up aginst their evil leaders mopre power to them,they should be helped but I think the main goaol of any western intervention should be to just decapitae the leadership and make sure everyone knows that if their evil is replaced by anything the same then they will meet the same fate. And the Russian sabre rattleing is funny. Let them bluster like a drunk frat boy all they want because their economy cane be destroyed in about 5 days if they go to far with the west.It would take determination and sacrifice in Europe(rare these days) but it can be don. Same with Chine. they will be back in the 3rd world in about a week if we want to levy a few stratigic tarifs and embargos.Between their meddleing in other nations,supporting terror,Massive war crimes and ties with Iran Syria has shown they are not able to be among civilized nations. I could care less if they were Islamic or martians ,their actions have shown them to be nothing but a menace to the region and their own people.The next nation I hear condemning Israel without doing it 100 fold to Syria will be proven the worlds biggist hypocrit.

[JediMaster 451]

What's sad is the support of Syria being made purely for "we need our influence in the Middle East" reasons and not because anyone actually thinks Assad is right or anything.

 

Oh, and as for Assad, he's been behind or supported all the crap that's happened in Lebanon, so how much worse could an actual fundamentalist regime there be? The difference would basically be the new regime would toot a different tune.

 

If it wasn't for oil most of the world wouldn't care anyway. Look at other countries in say, oh, Africa? Many there with tons of troubles, but no oil, just Nigeria...and they're also a mess.

[+Brain32 265]

It would take determination and sacrifice in Europe(rare these days)

 

Sure let's fu**-up Europe completely, no problemo...

[+whiteknight06604 934]

I'm pretty sure Eurpoe F-ed themselves by dabbleing in socialism and not having any checks on imigration. that said not just Europe needs to sacrifice the US would have to but if Europe didn't go along there would be no point as thats where Putin extorts his money.Don't play ball he shuts off your gas and oil ;)

[+Brain32 265]

I'm pretty sure Eurpoe F-ed themselves by dabbleing in socialism and not having any checks on imigration.

 

Sure if TV says so, it must be true right?

 

that said not just Europe needs to sacrifice the US would have to but if Europe didn't go along there would be no point as thats where Putin extorts his money.Don't play ball he shuts off your gas and oil ;)

Play the ball? Haha it does not work that way, you either buy stuff or you don't, you obviously can't buy stuff if you force a ban on buying stuff right? Common sense, atleast here it is...

 

****

 

Anyway this obviously went political, it had to, maybe time to move it to arena subforum...

[+CrazyhorseB34 937]

Gas was $2.79 in Greenville, South Carolina today....... Syria, Iran, Russia, China, who else do we want to impose "American Style Democracy" on? American democracy barely works for Americans, much less in the Middle East. Arab Democracy = Muslim Theocracy. That is the big lesson learned from the "Arab Spring."

[Baz_GFA 0]

F em all. Let them all kill each other in the ME until the last one falls. America and europe should not waste our treasure (what's left of it) on that crap hole.

[+Gepard 11,295]

Isn't Assad already not considered a Islamist/ Al Quaida supporter

 

Sorry? He may be a lot of things, but he is not islamistic and Al Quaida.

[+Julhelm 266]

But he's a bad guy and the world is split between Good Guys and Bad Guys . The Bad Guys hate America :(

[+CrazyhorseB34 937]

The greatest threat to an Arab Nationalist is an Islamic Extremist.

[Slartibartfast 153]

Okay guys please this is about the crew of the F-4 and it being brought down not about the politics of the regime that brought it down... so take it down a notch as has already been requested. If you need to discuss this there is a forum for that...

[Atreides 144]

As revolting as Assad and his goons might be, the fact is that the aircraft violated sovereign airspace and was shot down. It was a military aircrat that was shot down not a civilian one. Which country would allow another countries aircraft to fly into its airspace without an intercept or SAM batteries locking on ? What were the Syrians supposed to do ask nicely ? BS, Turkey got caught being naughty and the jet was shot down. ANy other nation would have done something similar.

[Atreides 144]

F em all. Let them all kill each other in the ME until the last one falls. America and europe should not waste our treasure (what's left of it) on that crap hole.

You do realise that Israel is also in the Middle East right ? Ofcourse you do. Just checking.

[+ghostrider883 526]

ANy other nation would have done something similar.

 

Remember the Paki Navy Atlantique shoot down incident? Quite similar to this, except that the intruder was intercepted by a pair of IAF MiG-21bis and asked to land at an IAF base. Only when the the Atlantique turned aggresively towards one of the interceptors, was the Atlantique fired upon down over Indian territory.

 

I don't think in this case the TuAF RF-4E crew was even warned.

Edited June 25, 2012 by ghostrider883

[Atreides 144]

I know what you're saying Ghost but no one knowns what happened exactly. What if this was a breakdown in communication, not following procedures etc. For all we know this could be major screw up by a panicked or an over zealous AD crew. No one is privy to the exact details of what went transpired.

 

In light of recent events in Syria, even protecting ones airspace will be viewed negatively by the international communtity.

 

Also, with regards to the crew being warned wouldn't the black box reveal the details once recovered ? So at this point its a case of he said..

Edited June 25, 2012 by Atreides

[Toryu 156]

I don't think in this case the TuAF RF-4E crew was even warned.

 

I kinda don't get all that talking.

 

1) The TuAF has violated foreign airspace before - multiple times. Want a list? Ask their fellow "Nato-allies" Greece. People have died in those hassles before.

 

2) They have RWR gear.

 

3) They flew over an area associated with heavy fighting.

 

4) They were close to a russian naval base.

 

 

Now, I wouldn't invite Mr. Assad to my birthday-party, but Syria is not out of point here.

 

 

Conspiracy-theory-alert:

 

Who knows who pressed the button?

In a civil-war, front-lines tend to get quite blurred.

[+ghostrider883 526]

 

1) The TuAF has violated foreign airspace before - multiple times. Want a list? Ask their fellow "Nato-allies" Greece. People have died in those hassles before.

 

 

There are RoE to be followed in such situation and I ma sure you are aware of what the "violated airspace" nation needs to do. You don't simply start firing SAMs or AAA at intruders ,especially when you are not at war with a neighbour.

 

In late 2011, an IAF Cheetah helicopter lost its way and strayed into Pakistani airspace in Kashmir. It was intercepted by PAF fighters, forced to land in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir. Its crew was interrogated and let off with their helicopter later in the day. Pakistani AD could so easily have fired SAMs and AAA at the chopper to bring it down.

 

Inspite of the bad blood between the two nations, they didn't and followed RoE, which the Syrians in this case failed miserably to follow.

Edited June 25, 2012 by ghostrider883

[Gr.Viper 131]

2) They have RWR gear.

And a lot of other gear, if R in RF-4E stands for anything.

[+Gepard 11,295]

Some facts.

1.)The turkish Recce Phantom was flying a typical recon mission. The task was to test the syrian air defence network. (Similar missions were flown very often during the cold war along the iron curtain. American recce birds flew over small parts of east germany and soviet planes made the same with west germany. Due violating the opposing airspace the opponent should be forced to activate their radar network, so that electronical data (frequences etc..) could be recieved.)

2.) At the syrian coastline Syria has deployed long range land based anti ship missile batteries (P-800 Yakhont). This weapon system is of high value, because this missiles could block all naval surface activities till Cyprus island if neccessary. Thatswhy the deploy area is heavily defended by modern russian delivered SAM systems. It is said, that S-300 Favorit, Buk-M1 and Pantsir systems are deployed there.

3.) the F-4 violated the syrian airspace when flying from turkish coast to the open sea, then the plane made a turn and tried to fly back the same way. If the turkish statements are correct, the F-4 was 13nm away from the syrian coast when it was hit by the SAM.

4.) the plane crashed 8nm away from the syrian coast into the sea.

 

Conclusion: the F-4 had a direct course to the syrian coast when it was hit,only 1 nm (1,852 km) away from the syrian teritorial waters. It must have had a very high speed when it could fly still 5 nm before it crashed.

 

The F-4 was shot outside the syrian airspace and crashed inside the syrian airspace. The shot down was a violating of international law, but the syrian reaction is understandable, because the turkish plane violated the syrian border before and attempted to make an other recon run along (and surely in) the syrian airspace.

The turks played with the fire and burned their fingers.

Both sides know this and after a while all sides will calm down. No need to start a war. s**t happens.

[Baz_GFA 0]

You do realise that Israel is also in the Middle East right ? Ofcourse you do. Just checking.

 

Of course. Your point?

[snakeman 1]

Hi

 

Has any one had confirmation that it was an RF-4, because I have been informed it was a F-4E 2020.

 

Thanks