B52STRATO 215 Posted January 15, 2013 Last friday one of the French special forces pilot lost his life during a mission over Mali. Flying aboard a Gazelle, this 41 years old man was lethally hit by ennemy ground fire and prove again the vulnerability of this helicopter. I still do NOT understand why the A.L.A.T nor the special forces use this non-armored hellicopter over urban areas and in fire range of hand weapons ! The UK has proved it over a beach in 1982, Iraq during his war against Iran and even all along fights in ex-Yugoslavia. Why don't they deploy Eurocopter Tigers ? Armored and armed for this type of fight ? No, these kind of St-Cyr bourgeois prefer to send these men to death, flying coffins which should no longer be used in combat but for MEDEVAC and logistics. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
macelena 1,070 Posted January 15, 2013 Agree 100%. One thing is to use HOT missiles to blow tanks from afar, but strafing a hundred guys with AKs, technicals and who knows what else with a gazelle armed with 20 mm cannons is rather unfit. Even the Tigre HAP version would do ok. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Murphy'S 15 Posted January 15, 2013 Money....Money....... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Gepard 11,323 Posted January 15, 2013 (edited) To be honest, the anti ballistic protection system of the Eurocopter EC 655 Tiger is not really impressive. The cockpit glas is not bullet proof. The engines are not armoured. Only the sides of the cockpit has a certain protection. The gunfire that killed the Gazelle could have killed the Tiger HAP too. Further: The gun of the french Tiger HAP is restricted to +/- 5° because the structure of the heli nose is to weak and after some weaks in Afghanistan it were found cracks, cause by the gun recoil. The reliablility of the Tiger is weak. (See the problems with Aussi Tiger ARH). There are some improvements under the way, like additionally armour plates under the cockpit windows, to improve the balistical protection for the pilots. But a more massive heli armour is not possible, because the improved engines of the E series is not yet available. An american AH-64D Block III or a russian Mi-35M would do a much better job in Mali, because this helis are combat proofen and have a very good battle damage resistance. The Tiger HAP only has "paper" armour. Sorry to say that. Its such a waste of tax payers money. Edited January 15, 2013 by Gepard Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MigBuster 2,884 Posted January 15, 2013 (edited) Seem to be a lot of Gazelles in service still (well according to wiki) - you wouldn't feel too great flying at those guys in a flying greenhouse at 90 kts. But as you say the forces should have a bit more protection! The news is showing Rafale and Mirage 2000D footage also Edited January 15, 2013 by MigBuster Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JediMaster 451 Posted January 15, 2013 I'll just say there are very few deaths I would consider "needed." Almost none of them are by those serving their armed forces. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nesher 628 Posted January 15, 2013 sad to hear.. <S> Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Murphy'S 15 Posted January 15, 2013 Money....Money....... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MigBuster 2,884 Posted January 15, 2013 Money....Money....... Do you think that France is not prepared to put the money into the forces? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Murphy'S 15 Posted January 15, 2013 Do you think that France is not prepared to put the money into the forces? Alaways been the case in some measure. just take a look at the history of the jaguar and compare the first english and french versions..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+SupGen 79 Posted January 15, 2013 Two words: Agusta Mangusta. Pint size AH-64 clone, half the size, half the price, all the TOW's, HOT's, or Hellfires you could wish for. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Gepard 11,323 Posted January 16, 2013 Mangusta has the same problem like the Tiger. It has no good protection system. It is said to be safe against 12,7mm ammo. All larger calibers can easily penetrate the protection system of the Mangusta. TOW, HOT, Hellfire and other anti tank guided missiles are a waste of money in Mali or Somalia. Its to expensive to shoot a sniper with a 100.000 Euro missile. The same job you can to with some 20mm bullits for 1 Euro each. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slartibartfast 153 Posted January 16, 2013 Problem is when the Gazelle came out it was to be a scout chopper and it was fairly good at that but that was over 30 years ago... also the kit which is in operation today was for stopping the Soviet Juggernaut if it came over the Fulda gap etc... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+SupGen 79 Posted January 16, 2013 Mangusta has the same problem like the Tiger. It has no good protection system. It is said to be safe against 12,7mm ammo. All larger calibers can easily penetrate the protection system of the Mangusta. TOW, HOT, Hellfire and other anti tank guided missiles are a waste of money in Mali or Somalia. Its to expensive to shoot a sniper with a 100.000 Euro missile. The same job you can to with some 20mm bullits for 1 Euro each. Gepard, the latest version, AW129 has a 20MM Oto Melara cannon under the nose, ala the Apache. The Apache is, I grant you, more heavily armored than the Mangusta, it also has an inferior power/weight ratio and doesn't perform as well in hot weather/high altidude. The Mangusta's airframe, engines, and rotor system are all ballisticaly tolerent up to 12.7MM/.50cal., which is a pretty big round; definitely not "small arms" and better than the Gazelle. I dunno, maybe I should just be a "typical" American and just recommend "Buy Boeing". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Murphy'S 15 Posted January 16, 2013 Just a reminder, the common caliber present in these areas is 14,5mm.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+SupGen 79 Posted January 16, 2013 Just a reminder, the common caliber present in these areas is 14,5mm.... Understood, however there ain't much difference between 12.7 and 14.5MM rounds, ballisticly, and the guy referred to at the beginning of this thread was probably not killed by either; the Gazelle is basicly unarmored. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
macelena 1,070 Posted January 16, 2013 the way apaches or another dedicated attack chopper could have handled this better depends not on armour, but on staying out of range of small arms and rotating like an small version of an Spectre, wich is why i guess cannon fire seems so unprecise in Youtube. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
B52STRATO 215 Posted January 16, 2013 Guepard is right, but cause these choppers were originally designed for a war in Europe, on the German land. Some like the such as BO-105, Gazelle or even the agil Panther, equipped with guided filo-missiles, were safe on this kind terrain, sheltered behind the relief and environment. And even the Mangusta, as the Tiger has been thought to face the Warsaw Pact armored batalions, shooting off the short-range guns and protected against electronic warfare... not against what they face today, simple and non-guided weapons. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Gepard 11,323 Posted January 19, 2013 (edited) Understood, however there ain't much difference between 12.7 and 14.5MM rounds, ballisticly, and the guy referred to at the beginning of this thread was probably not killed by either; the Gazelle is basicly unarmored. If you have 12,7mm and 14,5mm ammo in your hand, you will see, that the 14,5 is significantly bigger. Here a picture taken from Waffeninfo.net homepage: Left the 14,5mm and right the 12,7mm. Edited January 19, 2013 by Gepard Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+SupGen 79 Posted January 21, 2013 I never said it wasn't bigger.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+CrazyhorseB34 937 Posted May 30, 2013 I guess we should retire all our "Little Birds" then........... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ndicki 22 Posted May 30, 2013 The Saint-Cyr bourgeois you criticise are not the ones who decide the defence budget, I'm afraid to say. If they did, rather than the especially useless load of left-wing morons you elected recently, then this sort of thing would happen less frequently. Most of the older Saint-Cyr bourgeois have their own sons in the Forces too. Do not use the death of a good man as an excuse to vent your own ignorant social prejudice and score feeble political points. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
