Brazil chooses Gripen

[Peugeot205 2,745]

Come now, chap. You got the Indian deal...

 

Besides, you are taking it a lot better then some of your countrymen ;-)

 

We will see what happens with India, the UAE is also interested on the Rafale..., we'll see..... 

[+Cliff7600 1,148]

?!?

 

Selling aircrafts is important for the company, and for the economy of the country.

 

But as far as I'm concerned, I really don't care that Lybia, India, Brazil, or UAE fly the Rafale.

 

French air force and french navy fly it, nothing else counts to me.

(arguable french point of view...)

 

Go Brazil! Enjoy your Gripens NG!!!

Hope the Swiss will have their too...

I wish the Canadians will have SuperBugs, though it's not that easy.

 

Leave us our Rafales

(half-joking) ; )

[+Cliff7600 1,148]

I'm French

Mytho va!

xD

[JediMaster 451]

The Indian deal is taking forever. Hard to know what's going on there until either the planes are delivered or they say they picked another one again.

[Boresight 51]

Horrible decision.... May be because I'm French ;) ?  Perhaps....

 

The Rafale should be the right decision....

 

It is true that Brazil is not a NATO member and that it has not been involved in recent conflicts, however, for a country of it's size, and with the huge economy it has , only 36 planes , and gripens, it is not a good decision. The Gripen is a good plane, nevertheless,  it is just a low cost fighter , good enough for a small air force , but not for the air force of one of the most important countries in the world like  Brazil. Reasons for buying the Rafale:

 

* Much powerfull platform

* Used in combat (Afganistan, Lybia, Mali, etc..)

* Carrier-Base capable (The Brazilian navy operates obsolete A-4's from the Foch, the Rafale can be operated from the Foch , in fact it was tested there , M version from 1993)

* First foreign user of the plane, with possibility of having a technology exchange.

* In 2009 Nicolas Sarkozy    signed with the Brazilian goverment a securty procurement.

* Dassault has always been one of the best manufaturers giving the best  products without any limitation to it's costumers, not like other countries you know...

 

Summing up, from my point of view a bad decision , however at least Brazil buys modern fighters , not like Argentina....

,

 

 

Oh realy ???  Was that a joke ?

 

- What about the Exocet anti-ship missiles that were boycotted to Argentina military in the 1982 conflicts?

 

- What about Dassault / French gov. denying the Mirage 2000 to anyone who ask's for it, since they're trying to foist the Rafale to everyone ?

 

- What about the exorbitant prices Dassault asked for Taiwan Mirage 2000's maintenace / upgrade ? The same with India Air Force Mirage 2000's upgrade ?

 

- What about the Scorpéne submarine deal with Brazil, which was a major monetary rip-off, at least comparing with the German U-214 offer ?

 

- What about the desagreements between Brazil and France govs. about the Scorpéne technology transfers not happening after the deals have been signed ?

 

- What about the recent Dassault's / French gov. refusal to effect maintenance on Spanish Mirage F1's ready to be sold to Argentina, unless Argentina buy instead the French reserve ones ?

[Peugeot205 2,745]

Oh realy ???  Was that a joke ?

 

- What about the Exocet anti-ship missiles that were boycotted to Argentina military in the 1982 conflicts?

 

- What about Dassault / French gov. denying the Mirage 2000 to anyone who ask's for it, since they're trying to foist the Rafale to everyone ?

 

- What about the exorbitant prices Dassault asked for Taiwan Mirage 2000's maintenace / upgrade ? The same with India Air Force Mirage 2000's upgrade ?

 

- What about the Scorpéne submarine deal with Brazil, which was a major monetary rip-off, at least comparing with the German U-214 offer ?

 

- What about the desagreements between Brazil and France govs. about the Scorpéne technology transfers not happening after the deals have been signed ?

 

-What about the recent Dassault's / French gov. refusal to effect maintenance on Spanish Mirage F1's ready to be sold to Argentina, unless Argentina buy instead the French reserve ones ?

 

French Goverment? Or Dassault? 

 

*What about the Exocet anti-ship missiles that were boycotted to Argentina military in the 1982 conflicts?

 

They were boycotted during the war, the boicot only stopped the deliveries of the missiles, the exocet was used and two R.N ships were sunk, later on the boycot was stoped.

 

* What about Dassault / French gov. denying the Mirage 2000 to anyone who ask's for it, since they're trying to foist the Rafale to everyone ?

 

Deny a plane whose manufacturing was stoped in 2005?

 

* What about the exorbitant prices Dassault asked for Taiwan Mirage 2000's maintenace / upgrade ? The same with India Air Force Mirage 2000's upgrade ?

 

A Mirage is not a MIG, as well as a Lada is not a Peugeot.

 

*What about the Scorpéne submarine deal with Brazil, which was a major monetary rip-off, at least comparing with the German U-214 offer ?

 

Brazil  chose the Scorpéne , It was their decision , and if it is more expensive than the U-214 they should have considered  it before buying it.

 

*What about the desagreements between Brazil and France govs. about the Scorpéne technology transfers not happening after the deals have been signed ?

 

Pure politics, we will never now who is guilty with that issue.

 

*What about the recent Dassault's / French gov. refusal to effect maintenance on Spanish Mirage F1's ready to be sold to Argentina, unless Argentina buy instead the French reserve ones ?

 

The AdA offered their Mirages to Argentina, however, France never denied the maintenance of the Spanish F-1s.

 

 

 

Going back to this:

 

without any limitation to it's costumers, not like other countries you know...

 

France, has never sold  military equipment from a junk yard , not like others............(Remember the Spanish Phamtoms, the Portuguese A-7s, Greek Delta Darts , Turkey's huns...... etc etc etc)

Edited December 22, 2013 by cangas

[macelena 1,070]

I think you both made the point very clear. Boresight put some issues on the table, cangas justified them. Those issues being justified doesn´t mean they will be solved, on the contrary, just make them more important to consider. I would have gone for the Gripen too in such circumstances.

 

Rafale for the Brazilian Navy might be not the best solution. If you are going to play big, you need to do even better. Could have made more sense for India, but Brazil can "fly lower" for a while. 

[Peugeot205 2,745]

I think you both made the point very clear. Boresight put some issues on the table, cangas justified them. Those issues being justified doesn´t mean they will be solved, on the contrary, just make them more important to consider. I would have gone for the Gripen too in such circumstances.

 

Rafale for the Brazilian Navy might be not the best solution. If you are going to play big, you need to do even better. Could have made more sense for India, but Brazil can "fly lower" for a while. 

 

But the Rafale needs a catapult to operate, and the new Indian Aircraftcarrier is a STOBAR one....... 

[+JonathanRL 974]

Seems like Brazil will rent a number of Gripen-C. Do not say another word, I will be on my way to make one for our Brazilian Pilots in a jiffy.

[JediMaster 451]

France doesn't deny a country equipment because of politics almost ever.

 

However, that doesn't mean they don't look to make money. Other than the Exocet suspension, every other point Boresight made boiled down to "they wanted to get more money". Even the tech transfer, you don't want to give it to someone else if you think you can use it to make more money off them later.

 

The simple truth is France is the smallest country in the world making its own military equipment for the majority of its requirements. Others make boats or planes or whatever, but buy the rest. The UK, Spain, Germany, Italy...they all went in together years ago on stuff and stopped going it alone. France is the last one where multinational projects are a clear minority of their programs. Yet they can't afford to pay what it costs to do that, they're just not big enough. That means exports, France's industry NEEDS exports, but it seems like they seem to forget that they need to compete on pricing with other offerings. The Rafale is not so clearly superior to everything else out there that they can get away with charging more, but don't tell Dassault that!

 

They're just not as flexible as they need to be, for whatever reason, and that's costing them sales. The era when they could get away with it because no one else would sell to them has ended, all countries now see the need to export to fund their work. Only China is going it alone, but they do sell a few here and there and their costs are low compared to Western nations.

[Stratos 3,191]

Any idea of the Grippen version Brazil will get? Always tought that a country as big as Brazil, a two engined plane was the better option, but I can be wrong of course. Always imagined Brazil will finally get the Super Hornet, got a bit surprised when they choose the Grippen instead.

Anyway I'm sure they will get a great plane. BTW, Brazil just modernized his F-5 to a pretty good standard, those and the Grippens will make a good pair.

[+JonathanRL 974]

They will purchase the Gripen-E/F (Also known as Gripen NG). However, they have said they may want to lease or rent Gripen-C as a gap-filler.

[Stratos 3,191]

Have been reading a bit about the Grippen Ng and it seems lots of components come from "third parties" apart from Sweden and Brazil, even the engine is a foreigner one, will brazil produce more of this components or it will be subject of a embargo in case of problems? 

[JediMaster 451]

I can't imagine there being an embargo issue. Pretty much the only reason that happens anymore is "human rights issues" and Brazil is not likely to have that.

 

I don't think there will be many if any substitutions. The engine especially is hardly easy to replace. As for local assembly, no idea.

[+JonathanRL 974]

The US pulled that one on the Viggen once. Saab has learned since then.

[+Gepard 11,295]

The "human rights" argument is only good for China, because China is simply ignoring this argument, while western states retreat from a deal.

Not China. its their business. If the west say "Oh dear costumer, if you want to buy our planes or tanks, then you must make sure that no husband bashs his wife. Its against human rights." and so on.

China says: "In your contry the husbands bashes their wifes? ... No problem at all! Do you want to buy very good floggers?"

[Toryu 156]

Human rights are only an issue if you're not a "friend" - haven't heard of any trouble, exporting stuff to Saudi Arabia or some other "philantrophic" country of the region.

[JediMaster 451]

It's used as an excuse. Of course, in China's case they're far better now than they were 30 years ago, but we didn't start recoiling until 1989.

 

Since then we trade more with them than ever, but have this bogeyman created at the same time.

 

What's ridiculous is the idea that if we don't export or work with someone they'll never get whatever it is. Like no one else has it, or no one else can get it. So we don't work with them, they're delayed a few years, and then whoever DOES work with them gets the money.

 

Meanwhile, if we had let them work with us we would know exactly what they had, how to defeat it, and would've made the money on top of it. So short-sighted.

[Toryu 156]

It's always about short-term benefits only - thinking about ramifications that count on longer time-scales is not "en vogue" nowadays.

[Snailman 517]

Human rights are only an issue if you're not a "friend" - haven't heard of any trouble, exporting stuff to Saudi Arabia or some other "philantrophic" country of the region.

 

This is basically the rule... Also, it is not a problem even if you own nukes, as long as our puppet dictator is in power)) You try to be independent... you're a terrorist nation. Then, you will buy from China then, also good. Everything is made in China anyway ))))

[macelena 1,070]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXkve87HJgg

[+JonathanRL 974]

All the countries? That is strange choice of words, considering Thailand want to order more of them. As regards to the South Africans, the contracts expired due to the South African budget not being large enough to keep them flying, something that would be an even more danger with the Rafaele. While I do not deny that the Rafaele may be a better aircraft, it is significantly more expensive to maintain and fly and thus is not really an option for most countries that has to think long and hard what to spend their money on. It seems the South African Government has chosen to rectify this however as they have signed a new contract for maintenance. The Czech Republic choose the Gripen over the F-16 who they had decided to procure. Hungary are pleased with theirs, Slovakia and Croatia are interested as well.

 

As to regards to version, there are currently four versions that has seen service, one in prototype stage and one on the drawing board. The A and B was for the Swedish Air Force only, the C and D was improved versions for export with NATO and Air Refuelling capacity. B and D are for training and are dual seaters. Then we have the NG Model that will become the E and F versions. This airframe features larger body, two more pylons and a different tail. On the drawing Board is the Sea Gripen for Carrier Operations. India has maintained interest for this model - but will in all likelihood get Russian aircraft depending on how their deal with the Carrier goes forward. Brazil is another interested party, but their Carrier is barely floating.

 

As regards to the entire Snowden thing, I am glad the Brazilians never read the Swedish newspapers where it clearly states we where one of NSAs primary partners in the spying.

Edited December 27, 2013 by JonathanRL

[Boresight 51]

Call me crazy but if I was an "independent" nation like Brazil, Chinese aircraft would never be considered. You get what you pay for.

 

As far as the Grippen deal is concerned, NG or not it seems like a poorly thought through move. Snub the US because of the "Ed Snowden says the US spies on everyone," debacle. Snub France because they want to provide a high quality product. Do you blame France for wanting to sell the Rafale? More export contracts keeps the factory open to make more Rafales for the French. India has done more for the French Air Force than anyone recently.BTW you pay for quality.

 

Then you choose the Grippen, which NG or not, has been a big disappointment for every country that has been involved in Sweden's little adventure in exporting war planes. what version of Grippen are we on now? Or should I say which version does the Saab brochure say we are on?

 

South Africa only has I think nine of them and from what I heard only two are airworthy because the Swedes screwed them on the service contract in the lease deal. Pretty sorry that South Africa had to do the fly over of Nelson Mandela's funeral with Puma helicopters. ( A Quality French product I might add) Instead of their "modern combat aircraft."

 

Seems the only people in the world that have a woody for the Grippen are the Swedes.

 

Romania got the best deal with the used Vipers from Portugal.

 

Argentina got a good deal on the Spanish F1s, even if they are required to purchase war reserve French F1s along with the AMD service contract. Still if you want combat proven quality you have to pay for it.

 

But you see it is all a political move. Brazil is trying to prove that it is the "Independent South American Super Power," when the reality is far from that.

 

Chile has the best equipped and best trained air force in South America. Maybe Brazil should have considered that first.

 

Rafale would have been the best choice for Brazil. It would be nice to say you have the most advanced fleet of combat aircraft, besides the USA, in the Western Hemisphere. But if they want to buy second rate F-20 knockoff with historically unreliable service and maintenance program, that is on them.

 

Rather have second hand first rate anytime. Congratulations Romania.

 

Hello CrazyhorseB34,

 

1 - No one blames France to try selling the Rafale or whichever aircraft. That's pefectly alright.

 

What seems ethically reprovable is the fact that they are purposedly ending the Mirage 2000's production / comercialization life sooner, to try forcing an highly expensive product (Rafale) to possible customers - though that's backfiring on Dassault...

 

 

2 - Many brazilian air force / air power enthusiasts disagree on that, mainly on the motive that: while the Rafale might be technically very good, it really would be an economic / financial catastrophe for the Brazilian Air Force.

 

Several air force bases are being undefinedly decomissioned; air units grounded by lack of maintenance funds; air defense duty temporarily passed to the F-5 II units; etc, atests that.

For much they like the Rafale, Brazilians themselves insist they can't support the Rafale "astronomical" maintenance costs, thanks to the country's economic situation.

 

http://www.aereo.jor.br/      ( Site in Portuguese language )

 

 

3 - Saab Gripen, a second rate F-20 ?

[macelena 1,070]

As a side note on the South American air forces new procurement aircraft, the deal for our Air force to sell the Mirage F1s is down. apparently due to French/Dassault´s pressure to sell their own Mirage, either F1 or 2000. They are getting Kfir Block60, not too bad IMHO. 

 

Also, Peru has shown interest in taking some of our earlier batch EF2000 as we replace them with later models, but i don´t think we are sparing any Typhoon nowadays.

[+JonathanRL 974]

Sorry, CrazyHorse but for that argument to be close to valid, I will need a little more then just a passing resemblance. If that is what we use to call things "second rate" we have an epic duel about who is the second rate between Rafael and Eurofighter who are rather similar designs.

Edited December 27, 2013 by JonathanRL