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DCS:MiG-21Bis finalization and publishing on hold

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http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=119362

We beczl studio announce with regrets the following bad news in relation with DCS:MiG-21Bis project.

The project is on hold till the unknown date due we are faced of several development problems in general also a very serious disagreement
and financial issues within the team that affect the whole project finalization and future.

That means the finalization of the MiG-21 and publishing as well is freezes until these issues fully clarified. If it is won't possible very soon we must be drop whole project.
So the beczl studios will not and never been publish the DCS:MiG-21Bis. In case we'll be working on the project closure and after the backers will give back their money
as soon as possible.

The method how we can transfer these money's back to our backers will be communicated and available as soon as possible. We will be contact
with each backers individually via mail with the possible solutions in relation about money back transfer.

We willpost details on www.dcs-mig21.com, in our facebook page, and also in this forum thread as well.

Nevertheless, it was a pleasure to working on this project even it is not published and I spent more than two year (with previous version more than four year) for that project from my life.

Through our regular updates, news and videos you can clearly see the DCSW possibilities, how long and hard work need to be a successfully (or unsuccessfully within this context) project. We can experienced how
hard to develop a DCS level planes with a limited 3rd party support, but also met a lot of talented and experienced 3rd party teams who's help each other, share their knowledge that help each party to achieve their goal.

Anyway, we wish to all player, 3rd party group and TFC/ED to a better success with the other possible upcoming DCS planes.

 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I see this as a trend. So many 3rd party planes announced and one by one they disappear.

 

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What a blow - that is just unbelievable - the amount of work that has been done and shown!

 

The time and financial requirements are beyond comprehension for high fidelity simulators - and without a dedicated team motivated by a common goal it will always be the same - lets hope they sort out the problems they have.

 

 

 

my 2c - DCS and its third parties might be better pursuing an FC3 to Hi Fidelity model - that way at least something will be released - even if the HiFi version never sees the light.

 

 

 

 

Looks like the thread has been pulled by ED already


Found this

 

Originally Posted By: Dolphin887
Being on this project since day 1, I am very sorry Laszlo put this message on forum without consultations with the team, and any collective decision really made.

Project is still fully active and this message surprised us (the rest of the team, 4 people) while we were actually working on it.

Any internal problem need to be dealt internally, without any negative effects outside the team.

In that sense, be reserved towards Laszlo's message for now, as we believe we will fix the issues soon (Laszlo is currently on the business trip).

I personally hope Laszlo won't make more harmful moves until we discuss this matter.

As from our part, 21 is not closed project, no worries.
Edited by MigBuster
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Too much work for a single plane right? I also think that this is not going well. To survive they need a constant flux of planes, not a plane every 4 or 5 years.

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This sure is negative publicity for both the 21 project and DCS whether the 21 is abandoned or not. The apparently incredible difficulty producing these hi-fidelity mods is just going to be a turn off for anyone else to jump in and produce a model. Throw in attitudes and internal arguments and this isn't good at all. Nobody wants the hassle.

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Let's see what near future departs, hope to get my money back If they don't launch anything.

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Wow, this is bad PR. Not so much for the plane itself but for the professionalism of those involved.

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I start to think that DCS Will never be the future simulator If you know what I mean. Too hard to get new planes there.

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Also found this
 
 
Hi Everyone,

First of all-- your assumptions are all wrong. This is not some petty dispute or someone storming off without just cause. This is an internal issue that can be easily rectified, but instead of engaging in clear dialogue, much more serious steps were taken. Steps that were public.

We pride ourselves in being professional in every facet of our products and outward image, therefore this issue going public causes us great grief.

We will not say more at this time. Please keep speculation to a minimum. Seeing something being destroyed in the eyes of the public after a concentrated effort of years of development is heartbreaking
We have a reputation to maintain, and seeing it be torn to shreds in the matter of two days is far more crushing. Especially with regards to what we have in the pipeline.

We remain committed to the MiG-21 and are working hard to resolve this and move on. Please have faith in us.

/Nicholas, Novak, Roland & Michael -- DCS: MiG-21
 


Edited by Cobra847 (Today at 17:23)

_________________________
Artist -- Studio Beczl MiG-21/23

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this guys is just showing one fact we must accept

 

flight simulators genre of games reached point in which these no longer can be developed on desired by (many cases, nuts) fidelity level without costing us 200$ a piece, is it good? If someone wants and has the cash, carry on but I'll stay with cheaper less costly options.

 

Simply put, matter of development progress.

 

Also down to the core I think it's really hard to do in fact hobbyst stuff via internet when money is involved and hundreds are watching every of your steps (kisckstarter demand)

I think WOFF team is an example that isn't a rule, they succeded more or less (but OFF p3 and WOFF weren't kickstarted which is a major point)


of course I think it's all fault of die hard no-compromises hardcore nuts...

 

but you know my opinion regarding who is the biggest enemy of flight simulators

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Agree with Stary. Flight Sims are being over complicated, limiting variants and fun IMHO.

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This is a disquieting development.  I guarantee the initial MiG-21 announcement and updates spurred more than a few purchases of DCS back some time ago.

 

As we have talked about before, it is my opinion that we are on the downhill side of the bell curve formed by the intersection of cost of development verses return on investment over time.  Because computing power has increased IAW Moore's law, we want stuff to take full advantage of those continually expanding capabilities.  Which means increased time, effort, and cost.  A great analogy is the transition from clear acetate sheets with marker on a screen projector to using PowerPoint slides...yea, the slides look lots nicer with more info, but it takes 10 times as long to make.

 

The problem is that there has not been a proportional increase in the number of flight simmers needed to sustain the increasing cost.

 

In addition, combat flight sims past about the Korean War era have one huge factor they have to take in for a serious flight sim...the EW environment.  Radar, ECM, missiles and the associated AI.

 

The reason WWII and to a lessor extent WWI sims tend to do better and attract more people is 1) There is a sort of romanticism involved with those time periods and 2) There is a perception that combat is significantly simpler to do...weapons employment is pretty easy (shoot a gun).  This is a double benefit to developers...less AI problems, no EW modeling needed and more overall interest.

 

I will say the trend I am seeing in the DCS world is not filling me with confidence.  I really do hope to be proven wrong.

 

FC

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you're right again FC, I think of all the modules the WW2 one has the freates chance of being good complete experience, because it boils down to, as you say, firing a gun after all.

 

As for Beczl, that's really sad news given what insane amount of detail they put into this project, at the end we might have only the freeware FC 2.0 version (which I enjoy alot and recomend for all those who decided to stay at that level)

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I am dismayed by the complete removal of the MiG-21 forum.

When I originally paid into the MiG-21, I did so knowing the previous work that had been done for FC, that ED was backing it, and that it was fairly close to completion.

Theoretically, the crowd funding was merely to pay for the licensing scheme on an otherwise nearly complete project. 

But even with all those assurances, I knew it was a gamble and that many if not most flight sim projects end with less than optimum results.

I don't regret paying in at all.

The chance of getting a DCS level MiG-21bis was more than worth the risk for such a low sum of money (I have lost far more on bad movies and overpriced popcorn/soda).

 

What I don't get is how the project can go from an assured launch date by the end of March to cataclysmic failure.

I never had very high confidence in March based on past performance (already over a year past original target and missed the Christmas window).

But I was pretty certain that at some point the highest fidelity MiG-21bis ever released for a consumer combat flight sim would be residing on my hard drive.

 

I hope this was just a bit of a "tiff" or just a "flesh wound" that will be quickly overcome.

But when the guy who created this project says the plug is being pulled and then ED turns out the lights on the forum, it doesn't look good no matter what other team members may think.

 

If I get a refund, I will be both pleasantly surprised and sorely disappointed.

When I gave the money, I wrote if off whether I ever get a MiG-21 or not.

I could care less about the money, but I really wanted that MiG-21.

 

At least I have the P-51D and UH-1H that I love.

Belsimtek has set the standard and I hope will make enough money to finish all of their announced projects and many more.

 

I don't think many if any of the 3rd parties that are successful MS FSX developers really understood what they would have to do to make a proper DCS aircraft.

As long as they can quickly/easisly (on a relative scale) crank out FSX material and sell it for prices comparable to DCS releases, how would it ever be profitable to make DCS aircraft with such a small niche market?

More power to them if they succeed in releasing anything for DCS that is truly up to DCS standards.

 

As for hard core purists killing the market -- the market provides what the consumers demand.

If consumers wanted lite playable SF/LOMAC games, TK would have been rolling in money and been able to add anything anyone wanted and DCS would have never evolved.

The market barely supports Ace Combat arcade games.

 

It takes a company that truly loves combat flight sims and its audience to put anything out at all.

And some of those (like TK) have finally given up on proper sims.

 

Nothing I can do but wait and see.

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I agree with Dave. A lot of 3rd party projects for DCS but none of them released.

About the Mig-21, at the webpage it says that it will be ready for the 30th March, but after reading this...now I am not sure.

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I think this is merely a public spillover of a disagreement between one member of the team and the rest. It honestly sounds like he's upset and wants to give up while the rest of the team doesn't think that's necessary and they should be able to work it out. I don't know if this will delay the release, but I can't imagine that they won't be able to work this out somehow. This isn't like many of these other planes that had a model and little else and got dumped. They've put so much work into this already that to quit with nothing to show would be beyond ridiculous.

 

I think part of this is ED never intended DCS World to be open to 3rd parties or they'd have designed their base differently, and the decision well after Black Shark and A-10C to go this route has been fraught with challenges that the 3rd parties are having only limited success so far getting over.

 

I'd honestly thought we'd have more almost 2 years later than just 2 helos from one developer, neither finished, but it is what it is. Screaming about it won't help a thing.

 

As for closing that forum, I think that's ED's standard practice when a big problem like this appears. I'm sure they'll bring it back in a little while once things have calmed down.

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Dear DCS Community,

First of all, a massive thank you for your patience. 
We know it is frustrating to be kept in the dark, especially after the bombshell of an announcement that was dropped in January. 
It was never our intent for our internal issues to go public. Unfortunately we've had to hold off on making this announcement for far too long.

Every team and business will at some point undergo difficult times, times where everything is seemingly smashed to pieces and the outlook seems most dire. 
After having experienced this, we can look forward to a bright future, moving forward as a team that is now stronger than ever.

While we appreciate the fact that everyone is eager to know exactly what lead us to the internal difficulties, 
we feel the need to keep as much of our private matters, private. We're here to deliver top-notch quality DCS products, not to run a forum soap opera.

No development team can exist without trust between its' members. 
Of paramount importance is internal transparency and accountability-- especially with regards to financial transactions. A key issue was identified 
where this requirement of trust broke down, and as such, steps had to be taken to protect everyone involved in the development of this module.

We can confirm that Laszlo “beczl” Becz has recently left the MiG-21 team. 
Beczl has resigned his position amicably, and without any external or internal pressure to do so. 

Hence, we are hereby known as Leatherneck Simulations and we are here to stay.


This internal restructuring primarily affect those of you who have backed the MiG-21 project on IndieGoGo.

To make it abundantly clear:

We do not have, nor will we receive, a single cent of the funds raised on IndieGoGo. 

However: in the interest of goodwill and as a thank you for your incredible support over the years, we will honor each and every backer to its' fullest extent, at our own cost.

Some physical items that you are entitled to may be slightly delayed (Shirts, DVDs, etc.). We simply do not have the money required to produce these items en masse before release.

In essence, the only difference to you (the backer) -- is that you may have to wait a short period to receive your physical goods. We hope that is amicable.



Q&A 

Hold On! Isn't Beczl the founder of the DCS: MiG-21?
Yes and No. The DCS: MiG-21 started as a 50/50 partnership between beczl and Novak Djordjijevic (Dolphin887). Novak has been the driving force for code development on the MiG-21 for the past 3 years, and is responsible for the majority its' codebase.

Who is Novak?
Novak has been with the project since day one, and has been the main driving force behind the code development of the DCS: MiG-21. The majority of the systems and the AFM can be attributed to Novak. With only 38 posts on the forum to date, it is understandable that he has flown under the radar.

Can I get a refund for my IndieGoGo contribution?
This is not our responsibility or decision.
We will honor your contribution to its' fullest extent at our own cost. 
We do not have any of the money contributed via the IndieGoGo campaign.

Whatever you drama queens. When is this damn thing getting released?
While work has continued at a steady pace during these internal issues, it goes without saying that we are now slightly short on manpower and time has been lost. 

We are looking at several options for release windows. Do not expect a long delay from the previously announced release date.

WHAT!? But you said March 30th?!
At that time, no one expected something this big to occur and hinder our development progress. 
We are committed to giving you accurate and realistic time frames. 

It is what you deserve and what we should be held accountable for. We will see to it that this is the case in the future.

But, seriously, when are you releasing?
There will be more info on this soon. Promise.

What happened to all the videos?
The videos are old, outdated and do not paint a proper picture of the module at this point in time.
The aircraft is a completely different piece of software relatively to a year ago.

We will post new videos very soon.

What about the MiG-23?
The MiG-23 is not in our near-future plans. It remains an attractive option for us in the long-term, as code commonality with the MiG-21 amounts to roughly 60-70%.

We hope to share future plans with you soon. There are things we are incredibly excited to show you.

I have more questions?
Feel free to ask in this thread. We understand that recent events are frustrating from an outside perspective. We are committed to to DCS and hope we can put your fears to rest.


Once again, a sincere thank you for your support, patience and understanding. 
With your continued support we are here to stay and will help to foster a simulation environment that is everything a simmer could ever wish for.

Look towards a new development update for the MiG-21 later today.

Sincerely,

Leatherneck Simulations
DCS: MiG-21bis Team

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Progress... yet delayed again.

I wish they wouldn't even bother to post release dates until it is truly firm and won't change for any reason short of the internet going down or the end of the world.

I kind of liked TK/Third Wire's way of doing things in the beginning:

He stated long term goals in general terms and backed them with patches/service packs, then would surprise everyone with a new release like Wings Over Vietnam.

The only time he overcommitted what he was going to do in those early Walmart fiasco days was stating there would be a free F-104C addon after the very popular free F-4J and A-4F addons.

The loss of the F-104C was excusable, though, as the C-130A and F-104G were both removed from later SFP1 releases due to ongoing legal issues with Lockheed and its quest to license every one of its planes in the flight sim universe.

Ultimately, so many years later, he made good with SF2 and DLC, even if he had lost the capital to make the F-104 a flyable aircraft and had to charge again for what was originally promised for free.

 

I can't recall him ever promising anything that specific again until unveiling the SF2 North Atlantic game long before release, and even then he was careful to say as little as possible about what F-14 and ship functionality would be modeled.

I do feel like the new terrain engine was somewhat overhyped, but not by TK.

He said the extra detail people were screaming for was going to cost size and performance, and that was no lie.

But everyone expected that TK would make creating and adding terrain as "easy" as the original terrain.

Of course, TKs repsonse was a little cryptic and mostly useless: even without his support, everything you need to make new terrains is there, you just have to figure it out on your own since many of the key files in the new stock terrain were locked down.

 

I can't way to see how the DCS : MiG-21bis turns out.

I hope it meets or beats all the other extremely accurate DCS modules.

I hope someone else follows it up with my favorite: the F-4 Phantom.

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It seems like the one that's coming now is far more than the one that was originally conceived when the IG campaign ran 2 years ago. It's possible that was more FC-level while this will be DCS level, or at least closer to it.

 

Of course, I probably would've been satisfied with what it almost was back then vs waiting 2 more years. A few months I don't mind, but this is a bit too far.

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While I still believe this will be released, it's all talk until I get a download link.

Still more unexpected delays.

Even without the internal mix-up, I don't see how they would have made the announced March 31 release, especially since they said the internal struggle didn't really impact progress, yet delayed the release anyway.

How can you be so certain that the release is imminent to call out a "no later than" date just 2 months away, and then still have no news about when it is really going to be released as you are over a week into March?

I would be surprised if I get this before Christmas.

If it isn't released by Christmas, I will put it in the "Fighter Ops" category of wishful thinking.

 

It looks like it would really be cool to fly, though.

So, while I expect the worst, I am hoping for a release as soon as possible... April? May? June?

Combined with the AFM for the F-15C, this could make for some awesome close in dogfights both offline and in multiplayer.

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I think it obvious from this screenshot that they went back and redid 110% of what they had before.

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More Mig-21Bis News, and hello all ;)
 
http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2018515&postcount=42

 

OK, it's late, I'm still awake, just finished few things with Mike /Rudel/.

 

I have few minutes for update - not a fancy one /I have low-end PC, no fancy screens.../.
 
In latest set of weapons tests, Roland and I implemented 3 pods available for RU planes: GUV-7800 G, GUV-7800 M and UPK-23-250. Note that I have never saw 21Bis with any of these.
 
Most integrated weapon is UPK-23-250. Really impressive thing and closest to MiG-21Bis weapon system. I really recommend that one instead of 7800M. It has 2xGsh 23mm guns /which is the same gun 21 have/ and can pack serious punch. Besides, it fits the ASP natively. Pure Eagle weapon, no tweaks or "guessed" stuff. UPK will come with 21 for sure, well see about other things /more integration and tests needed... time?/.
 
I have no screens at the moment, sorry. Mike might fire few rounds for you if he has some time tomorrow.
 
As for the Kh-66, it's done also. You will have difficulties with this weapon, although it is a fun and a challenge to use it. Ill tell you just one thing that will create a lot of problems: asymmetric load after one missile is fired. Asymmetric load for heavy payload is not allowed on 21. However, once you get in the cockpit it will be your problem. At the moment it is ours. You'll have to discover other problems and realize why weapon development went the other way.
 
We only need to integrate new Kh control box although it could be used even without it.
 
(Note: screens here are 3 days old, that's all I have at the moment.)
 

 

 

1186861_729095920445632_451406756_n.jpg
1904213_729095863778971_1952528402_n.jpg
1975004_729095913778966_759322176_n.jpg
1964908_729095887112302_446931750_n.jpg
 
and Mig-21Bis Manual on progress
 

 

About the manual

 
Lot of people asked similar questions: will it be available in their language, how does it relate to original 21 manual, is it near completion etc.
 
Since we are making 21Bis mod for DCSW, there are differences between simulated 21Bis and real 21Bis (as you must have noted so far). Therefore, the only relevant document for DCS MiG-21Bis will be its manual. This does not prevent you from using any other document you might have, but DCSW MiG-21Bis will be what’s written in its manual.
 
Manual is near completion, still, I have to write and illustrate missing parts concerning recently added features, most notably new weapon use and complex navigation subsection (e.g. radials interception with RSBN). Note that manual can be finished after we finish everything else (e.g we need finished internal/external model and textures for manual illustrations). Before we conclude it (“lock” it), it has to be approved by Eagle.
 
Manual in your language? Absolutely.
Once concluded in English, manual will be available for translation to anything community can provide. Document containing the detailed “call for translators” will be presented here on time. Translations that satisfy required standards, quality and are delivered in time will be included in official release. Other translations (rejected, late, partial etc.) can still be presented to community here or elsewhere to support local players, but will not be included in release.
 

 

 

Edited by SilverDragon

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