Fishbed tactics against fighters?

[logan4]

The data Migbuster said is correct. The gun was capable to carry 60pcs in times of need, its container was allowing it. The "normal" load was 30.

[Stratos]

I asked on Russian forum on ED web. One of the ED Team members says the pilots manual talks about 60 rounds too. So great news, as my combat missions always happen in hot times the groudn crew alway load those 30 extra rounds!

[zmatt]

The MiG-21 is really effective in the 60's-early 70's, after that, even with the upgraded models its a death trap. I've tried A2A missions in the LanceR with external ecm and get swatted every time. Even in a Dogfight F-16's, 18's, 15's etc are just better and will eat you up. Early Atolls are pretty useless, but you can occasionally get a kill. best bet is to sneak up on them on the deck at high speed, pass beneath and immelmann to their 6. By now you have been spotted and the AI will try to turn, if its an F-4 or any other american jet just keep up and get close for guns or missiles. 

 

Key points:

 

-beating early radar guided missiles is easy, common practice is to fly low and fast, early radars have poor look down capability and the missiles have poor turning performance so passing under pretty much guarantees safety

 

-early missiles aren't up to dogfighting for two reasons, 1: they were designed for shooting down bombers and 2: the technology wasn't up to the task anyways. you can get lucky but the envelope is tiny and failure rates are high

 

-The Fishbed was designed as a point interceptor, not a dogfighter. Because of that it has short legs and a small weapons load. contrast to an F-4 which was meant to be a long range missile platform, more fuel and weapons. Your maneuverability is a lucky side effect of the design, not it's purpose. You lack staying power, get a kill and get the hell out of there. 

 

-Don't fly fighter sweeps due to the above reasons, you are pretty much limited to CAPs. 

 

If you want to fly offensive missions it's better to use the MiG-23. Just remember it handles like crap and you have to use tactics similar to an F-4. 

[Stratos]

Any tip against Israeli Mirages?

[+76.IAP-Blackbird]

Long story short .. fly the oposite direction your enemy does :-)

 

The mig has to putnumber the enemy by 5 to 1 and than you could have a chance!

[zmatt]

Any tip against Israeli Mirages?

 

I we are talking early Mirage 3's, the  530 is useless against fighters and their IRMs are about as good as yours. The big edge they have is more cannon ammo and more fuel. The MiG-21 is a bit more agile but not enough to make turning a done deal at all speeds, the Mirage does have a sweet spot above 330 knots or so, keep them out of it. 

 

If we are talking later ones, Say Mirage 5/50 family their IRMs are going to be better, they wont have radar guided missiles and handling is pretty much the same. 

 

Mirage 2000s will murder an MiG-21

[Emp_Palpatine]

Any tip against Israeli Mirages?

You can win.

Pretty much what has been said, beware of late IR missiles. Use your gun wisely. And watch fuel. You should be able to withstand the gun-armed "knife fight", but the danger zone is when you will be fleeing home. That's when the sidewinders are the most dangerous. 

[Lexx_Luthor]

Love these threads, always learn something new. Yak-25 same thing, normal load 50rpg for each N-37, but max 100rpg "in overload condition". Yefim Gordon:: ...yet the ammunition boxes could hold twice as much."

 

 

EmP:: But if you're gonna dogfight armed only with AIM-9B (what it was supposed to do), you're gonna have a baaaaad time.

 

I've always suspected that B was like *every* other missile at the time, in this case a NAVY missile for fleet defense against bombers. Not much about this exact topic, but I just found...

 

The Sidewinder Story::

 

The NWC initiated, in the early fifties, a program to design a heat seeking air intercept missile for the intercept of bombers by naval interceptor aircraft, until then armed with either .50 cal or 20 mm guns. The fledgling missile was aptly named after the Sidewinder,....

 

~ http://www.ausairpower.net/TE-Sidewinder-94.html

[regula50]

30 rounds for the MiG-21F-13 is exact.

About MiG-21FL, PF and PFM can utilise the GP-9 gunpod. Available from 1967 for the EAF and SyAAF but, that was not the standard and not all planes were wired for this dispositive.

The gunpod also used the central pylon place, that mean gunpod or belly drop tank. With gunpod very short range.

For use the GP-9, aiming over the target.

About the R-3s Atoll, depend altitude. As say before, dont move and try to be with 0 G in launch. For launch a low altitude max 800-1000m, medium altitude 1800m max, high altitude 2.5km.

Edited May 8, 2014 by regula50

[macelena]

The MiG-21F13 outmaneuvers and outclimbs almost any contemporary aircraft. R3S missiles were useful in real life, but ingame, they can´t be fired within parameters since any target will be given notice of the incoming missile and get away with the lightest maneuver. Sometimes, i get no kills with the missiles BUT go for cannon. Even with 30 rounds, you can still inflict quite an amount of damage if you use your maneuvrability to stick to any target so close you can´t miss. 5 shots for each kill can be achieved, if you don´t mind crashing into your target from time to time. There are times in wich i get to kill 3 Huns, Thuds, Phantoms, Skyhawks, Vatours or Mirages and go back believing i have exhausted the ammo only to find i had half of the magazine left. It is also useful NOT to use the rangefinding radar so as not to spook your prey. 

 

 

Also, it´s audio-only RWR is a life-saver, no question about it. Many times they broke away when i locked them up for a radar aided gun kill. And to the question of Matra 530s being useless, i think they are just very picky about their parameters. I would pick one of those over two nearly useless early Sidewinder-like missiles. While they are very useful against MiG-17s wich may be elusive to a gun kill, any MiG-21 will be alerted and may act against it...however, if fired properly, there is a no escape zone wich makes it very valuable

[Chutedangle]

I've been reading this topic and decided to give it a try.

Damn straight...it's hard.

I managed to get a gun kill on one 100D. The Atoll missiles

are all but useless, a pilot can dodge one just by looking at his watch.

The gun (30mm) is good buts runs dry pretty quick.

Then its time to turn tail and run. Probably a good

things that the Russies never started anything.

[zmatt]

. And to the question of Matra 530s being useless, i think they are just very picky about their parameters. I would pick one of those over two nearly useless early Sidewinder-like missiles. While they are very useful against MiG-17s wich may be elusive to a gun kill, any MiG-21 will be alerted and may act against it...however, if fired properly, there is a no escape zone wich makes it very valuable

 

I'll give you that if you can get the jump on MiG-17s or 19s they will never know what hit them. But if its already a furball forget it. Early AAMs just don't work in a dogfight. 

[Wrench]

Was looking for something else in my "Library" today, and came across this USAF manual/report/what ever thingy

 

thought it might be relevant to this discussion.