SF2 Aircraft AI Discovery!

[Spudknocker 241]

Hello CA!  

To whoever wants to know I think i found something interesting when it comes to AI and aircraft behavior 

 

Hopefully this isnt old news but I normally fly with AI difficulty set to normal in gameplay settings and through my various experiments working with creating AI statements for an ongoing aircraft project I found that the 

MinAIQuality=Veteran

MaxAIQuality=Ace

 

Statements under the AIDATA section of an aircraft not only effects the quality of the AI wingmen in the aircraft your flying but also all AI flights in the air including enemies 

 

I found this to be true because I added those statements to various aircraft of all eras from WW2 to modern planes.  I found that when flying with these statements added to the aircraft  i was shot down many many more times than without...

 

A further verification of these is when I looked at ericJ's F/A-18E/F super hornets... these aircraft come with those statements added and I have always wondered why do I get shot down so much while flying Super Hornets?  Well after my recent revelation I tried deleting those statements from the Super Hornet's Data file and boom!  Not getting shot down nearly as much!

 

Just thought that this little discovery of mine would be useful to any modders out there looking to tweak the performance of their airplanes! 

[+streakeagle 864]

A long, long time ago, I had always set AI difficulty to "Hard". The idea is that it affects the probability distribution of pilot quality. There are baseline settings for each nation (or branch of service as the case may be) that are modified by the difficulty setting. The problem is that when you choose "Hard", not only do enemy planes tend to have higher quality pilots than normally specified by their nationality, but friendly pilots have lower quality. I wanted enemy pilots to be better, but I didn't want the friendly pilots to become stupid! I simply learned to live with "Normal". This should result in a good historical match for AI vs AI fights even if it leaves you effectively being an ace. No matter what the setting is, both the AI and the player tend to unrealistically maintain situational awareness, ignore fuel constraints, and fight to the death. Combine that with over-effective weapons and the result is extremely unrealistically high air-to-air losses.

 

If you save missions, then manually edit the pilot quality for each flight, you can better control the flow of the missions. I tended to find myself giving both sides the highest quality possible to make the AI for both side do something more than wait to get shot down. Even then, the AI was never really as smart as I would have liked. But try out missions with every possible AI combination to see the full effects on gameplay. It can be a challenge to find the right combination for re-creating historical missions.

[Spudknocker 241]

Ya for sure I the ummm "discovery" here is that i believe I found that the actual in aircraft_data.ini when you add that min/Maxaiquality it changes the quality of all flights in the mission

[Fubar512 1,350]

New discovery...LOLOLOLOL

 

There you go, once again taking credit for "discovering" features that have been common knowledge among the old hands here for several years.

 

Look at the FMs of the F-86 Sabres and MiG-15s dated back to 2010-2012, or the third-party Yak-38's FM, or any of baffmeister's FMs.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Fubar512

[Spudknocker 241]

Wasnt trying to take credit... i wasnt sure what to call it I had known about the MAX/MIN ai statements before the interesting thing that I found is it seems to effect all the AI flights in a given mission if you are flying the aircraft with those statements active.  Just thought I would share what i had found because I had not seen any posts that delt with that side of the Max/Min ai statements effecting other aircraft in the mission 

 

It totally could be my imagination but I thought it was noteworthy 

[+streakeagle 864]

I certainly didn't mean to challenge/refute/or insult your discovery... but rather to clarify how the game handles the AI difficulty setting and explain alternate means for manipulating the AI to get the desired result.

 

In my experience, Normal is the way to go for general gameplay.

But saved missions with AI set precisely as needed to get the desired behavior is absolutely the best way to make historical missions achieve historical results.

 

Whereas making all the AI supersmart produce decidedly non-historical results whether you are talking a single mission or a full campaign. AI vs AI is much different than player vs AI. Optimizing the AI to provide you with the best challenge may not work out the best for the overall intent of the mission.

[Spudknocker 241]

No insult taken maybe I'm just explaining it wrong... In the tests I did in the Gameplay settings AI was set to normal

 

heres the scenario I tested I flew EricJ's awesome F/A-18F in a dogfight against Russian MiG-29's the first few times with the MinAI/MaxAI statements active and got my butt kicked almost every time...

 

The next tests I deleted those statements and found I was able to kill the MiG's after a good dogfight.... 

 

I then tried that same test with a few other aircraft P-38, F-15C and F-14B and got more or less the same results 

As a result i kind came to the conclusion that maybe the Max/Min AI statements affected not just my wingman but also the enemy flights I was dogfighting... I could be completely wrong but I thought it would be worth posting about since I had not seen anything in the forums relating to what I had deduced from some experimenting....

 

In response to FUBAR I was not taking credit for a the old Idea of these Min/Max AI statements but sorta found something that was a "sideaffect" if you will of the statements and explains why I could never fly a Super Hornet without getting my butt blown up! (Could be I'm a bad Rhino driver) But i thought the correlation there over multiple tests was worth sharing is all 

[Nicholas Bell 117]

Spudknocker, FWIW,  I get what you are saying.  What I don't get is why the code would be written so that forcing higher quality AI pilots on one type of aircraft would beef up all other AI pilots, but there's lot that goes on in the program that doesn't make sense...

[Do335 382]

Adding to the confusion... I've had doubts about if the statements actually do work or it's just some placebo effect. I just left them there since reckon there's no harm.

But will probably give it a test later.

[Wrench 9,471]

indeed, individual, tailored AI resides in ONLY that one aircraft's data ini. it should have no effect whatsoever on other aircraft, or flights of aircraft.

 

why it would effect the E/A is completely beyond reason; but like Nick said, there's some very strange shit that goes on sometimes!!

 

Perhaps the Game Engine ™ is reading the enhanced AI of said particular aircraft, and is bumping up the others to match? That would call for some rather sophisticated programing routines, that we've never seen or experienced before. 

[Do335 382]

uhm.... I don't think putting it in one aircraft type will affect another type. That just defies logic. Unless proper testing is done to prove it. "I feel I'm shot down a lot more" is totally subjective. But if it's true I reckon it's best to leave it alone, for it surely would upset balance especially in campaign mode which I care about.

[Do335 382]

OK tested and the statements work as intended. I used Mig-15 and Mig-15bis 8v8 as a test base and MaxCannonRange, OptimalCannonRange, and MinCannonRange as an identifier. For the mig-15bis set

 

[AIData]
MinAIQuality=Veteran
MaxAIQuality=Ace

 

While for both Mig-15 and -15bis, set extremely short cannon fire ranges for veteran and ace as:

 

[DogfightVeteran]

MaxCannonRange=150
OptimalCannonRange=25
MinCannonRange=15

 

[DogfightAce]
MaxCannonRange=125
OptimalCannonRange=20
MinCannonRange=10

 

Further gave [DogfightNovice] [DogfightGreen] [DogfightRegular]

CannonFireAngle=40

 

So what would this mean is if the AI is really on Veteran or Ace, it would rarely fire its cannons if at all, due to the extremely short capped range. But if the AI is at regular or lower, it would fire its cannon quite a lot and extremely inaccurately.

 

In mission editor I set both the Mig-15Bis and Mig-15 skill level to Poor. I hop into a singleton 3rd flight as observer and do not enter detection range of red AI flight.

 

The result is among 8 Mig-15bis only 1 Mig-15bis fired its cannon for a single burst, proving that they are indeed on Veteran or Ace level, despite Poor rating given, so Min/MaxAIQuality is indeed working there. For the 8 Mig-15, they fired a lot and all ran outta ammo. So they are Regular or below as given by skill level Poor, and not affected by Min/MaxAIQuality in the -15bis' Data ini.

 

Resolved for me. But next step: take the rookie pilot in my campaign for a test mission with above statements, to see if he's just a plain rookie or Ace in disguise!

 

Remaining question for the old guys: where are these statements dig up? Older versions? First Eagles? DLLs? They certainly are not in any default SF2 data.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Do335

[Fubar512 1,350]

In the AircraftObject.DLL file

[Wrench 9,471]

in ObjectData 001 cat, there's a "AircraftAIData.ini" as well, that has each level listed, plus the various ground attack profiles (including cruise missile)

[Spudknocker 241]

Huh I performed a couple dozen tests on this and I swear there was some correlation... like I said I could have been wrong because as I had said before I had wondered why It was I was getting shot down so often flying the F/A-18F's from EricJ and so I tried turning that off and I did not get shot down with nearly the regularity as when those statements were active...I then did  the same test on a few other aircraft and had the same results...Might be a crazy coincidence or something else strange in my install

 

I could be totally wrong just seemed to have an impact so I thought I should share...Like I said no feelings were intended to be hurt or credit taken away from anyone

[Do335 382]

In the AircraftObject.DLL file

Nice one there!

 

 

 

seems the new ones are encrypted. I'll see if my old installer gives ascii text dlls.

[+EricJ 3,943]

Huh I performed a couple dozen tests on this and I swear there was some correlation... like I said I could have been wrong because as I had said before I had wondered why It was I was getting shot down so often flying the F/A-18F's from EricJ and so I tried turning that off and I did not get shot down with nearly the regularity as when those statements were active...I then did  the same test on a few other aircraft and had the same results...Might be a crazy coincidence or something else strange in my install

 

I could be totally wrong just seemed to have an impact so I thought I should share...Like I said no feelings were intended to be hurt or credit taken away from anyone

 

I'm not sure if you had read this thread:

 

http://combatace.com/topic/62762-sf2-series-dact-reports-and-related-a2a-discussions-game-only/

 

But I've flown "Stock" and modded (EPE) and while the aircraft on cruise is a lemon, in the knife fight its very good.

 

Out of curiosity what are you flying against?

[Do335 382]

Works in campaign mode as well.

 

Replacement pilot 2nd Lt Scott Seaver, as green as they come, 58 skill, 14 experience.

 

As in the single mission test, set

[AIData]
MinAIQuality=Veteran
MaxAIQuality=Ace

 

But also

[DogfightNovice]
MaxCannonRange=25
OptimalCannonRange=4
MinCannonRange=3

 

[DogfightGreen]
MaxCannonRange=20
OptimalCannonRange=3.5
MinCannonRange=2.5

 

[DogfightRegular]
MaxCannonRange=17.5
OptimalCannonRange=3
MinCannonRange=2

 

While

[DogfightVeteran]
MaxCannonRange=1500
OptimalCannonRange=250
MinCannonRange=150

 

[DogfightAce]
MaxCannonRange=1250
OptimalCannonRange=200
MinCannonRange=100

 

So if he's green, he's not likely to fire his weapons. But if he's an ace/veteran, he will.

 

Mission result:

Fired and scored a kill. Statements working.

 

 

 

Another test just to verify. Set

[AIData]
MinAIQuality=Ace
MaxAIQuality=Ace

 

So the aircraft is always on Ace setting and not veteran, in case 58 skill is counted as veteran by the game engine. Also set

[DogfightNovice]
MaxCannonRange=25
OptimalCannonRange=4
MinCannonRange=3

 

[DogfightGreen]
MaxCannonRange=20
OptimalCannonRange=3
MinCannonRange=2

 

[DogfightRegular]
MaxCannonRange=17
OptimalCannonRange=3
MinCannonRange=2

 

[DogfightVeteran]
MaxCannonRange=15
OptimalCannonRange=2
MinCannonRange=1

 

So for veteran or below, AI wouldn't fire his weapon. I also deleted the digits in the range settings unlike the prev test, in case the values are "integer" and not "float" in the code and numbers with digits fubars the setting.

 

When targeted to a mig, 2Lt Scott opened fire at 800m+. He is an ACE.

Stats

 

[Nicholas Bell 117]

Thanks, Do335.  Something to keep in mind when building a campaign.  Does one use the [AI Data] limitations which means only morale and condition are impacting the pilots, or does one remark out those settings and set the Experience to 100 for a little  variation?

...and fight to the death.

 

Not my experience in campaign games.  In single missions it seems to be the case, but I regularly see planes "lose interest" and fly home in campaigns (I watch the AI a lot while RTB and after being shot down).  I noticed this enough in SF2 to see if I could tweak FE2 to do the same.  Found out that testing single missions was giving false results as compared to campaign missions.  Perhaps Morale and Condition are set at 100 in single missions?   Granted, the AI doesn't know when to bug out when outnumbered.  I only see that in BoB2 and WOFF.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Nicholas Bell

[Do335 382]

Thanks, Do335.  Something to keep in mind when building a campaign.  Does one use the [AI Data] limitations which means only morale and condition are impacting the pilots, or does one remark out those settings and set the Experience to 100 for a little  variation?

 

hmm I'm not sure what u mean... But afaik TK never explained how morale and condition impact AI performance in campaign mode so ur guess is as good as mine i reckon.

 

edit: ah got it, if you use the Min/MaxAIquality in aircraft_data.ini, it overrides Experience= in campaign_data.ini... Like if you set experience=75 while MinAIquality=Regular/maxAIquality=Ace, all the green pilots in the squadron are now regular and the aces are still aces. for a kickass all elite squadron i reckon MinAIquality=Veteran/MaxAIquality=Ace + Experience=100 seems fit. Something to play with to satisfy your own preference I reckon!

 

Apparently i have my korean campaign F-86 squadrons on this setting all along. Whether it fits in light of the test result I'll have to ponder it:D I previously thought min/maxAIquality only affects single missions at best.

 

 

 

and yeah campaign is a lot different than single missions, hehe even something trivia as the landing behavior of AI is different. And they do give up prolonged tail chases which was nice to see. other stuff like rtb when fuel hits zero etc. Anyway one of best AI in flight sims there Imo!

Edited April 13, 2016 by Do335

[+streakeagle 864]

Thanks, Do335.  Something to keep in mind when building a campaign.  Does one use the [AI Data] limitations which means only morale and condition are impacting the pilots, or does one remark out those settings and set the Experience to 100 for a little  variation?

 

Not my experience in campaign games.  In single missions it seems to be the case, but I regularly see planes "lose interest" and fly home in campaigns (I watch the AI a lot while RTB and after being shot down).  I noticed this enough in SF2 to see if I could tweak FE2 to do the same.  Found out that testing single missions was giving false results as compared to campaign missions.  Perhaps Morale and Condition are set at 100 in single missions?   Granted, the AI doesn't know when to bug out when outnumbered.  I only see that in BoB2 and WOFF.

 

While I have flown a few campaigns, the vast majority of my experience is either in random single missions or hand edited historical single missions. I fought the AI to no end between the various patches/version changes to try to replicate historical reports on specific encounters. TK's AI just won't do what real pilots did. Always too smart or too dumb. But before SF2NA patches nerfed the missiles making even AA-2 Atolls effective, I could consistently get historical losses if not historical behavior from any well tweaked historical mission. The SF series may have been "lite" in certain regards (such as cockpit controls), but the flight and weapons modeling and even some of the AI behavior was very realistic and is still competitive against DCS World in terms of historical behavior/results. Of course, both before and after the SF2NA patches, I, as the player, could get unrealistically good results most of the time regardless of AI settings. I don't know if that is a result of game issues or because players get way more experience/training than any real pilot ever did.

Edited April 14, 2016 by streakeagle

[Fubar512 1,350]

 I don't know if that is a result of game issues or because players get way more experience/training than any real pilot ever did.

 

Repetition, Streak. When one's opponent is predictable in their behavior, it eventually becomes all too easy to provoke and anticipate a "canned" response.  What the AI needs in this series is a larger number of variables to make it less predictable.

 

Tuning the AI on a case by case basis as we've been doing for some time now, allows one to force the AI to use a particular aircraft to its advantage, instead of (for example) pulling past the onset of a stall in a horizontal fight  or attempting vertical maneuvers in situations where it's clearly outclassed.