What happens when an ally become a frenemy...?

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

Out of curiosity, given that Turkish troops and aircraft have targeted US troops multiple times in Northern Syria and blocked off ground routes out of their AO, how exactly can the US, specifically, the US military, respond to this? Are they even able to respond, or do they just have to take this on the chin and GTFO of Dodge asap...?

[+Menrva 4,197]

I don't have a clear answer to that. If the US troops are obliged to return fire for their own safety, I guess they'll do it. That's not war technically.

What's happening is so despicable. A so called NATO ally (Turkey) is fighting against those who I still consider our friends, who are the enemy of our enemy ISIS. There are even reports that Turkish forces are transporting ISIS terrorists away from their cells, in their military vehicles across the border. What's even more f*cked up is that Turkey is leaning to Russia as a NATO member, and this should not happen but we're allowing it; Turkey is fighting Kurds and now the Syrians too, but Assad's Syria and Turkey are both allies to Russia, something's not right. We're allowing Turkey to do such a massacre for the sole reason that its location is strategic for NATO; what's the point if they're buying weapons from Russia already? It's already out of NATO, practically.

Above, an image of my country's shameful past, Italy 1938. Below, Turkey 2019.

 

My apologies if I have been too political. If admins feel it's appropriate to move this to The Arena, do so. It's just how I feel in regards to this situation; pretty sad, nothing more to add.

Edited October 17, 2019 by Menrva

[+1977Frenchie 1,038]

For me the answer is simple, ask the United States military top brass...

You don't need to dig far to find an answer as some groups once supported by the US were left alone with ''their'' war and later this group came back against them... Unfortunately the risk of this happening again is high as once you commited you have to get it done. If you let them and say it's ''their'' war, why did you go first? Getting dump is hard and you remember it for long, and human in general wants to seek some kind of revenge so this will hurt on the long run.

Just my opinion...

[+ravenclaw_007 7,632]

i hope that the US troops fire back asap and so that it hurts , prefert target is Erdogans palast , accidentally of course

it is a shame waht is happening to the Kurds, i have only one word for it , TREASON , shame on this USA goverment

i just wonder what did trump get in return for pulling the troops out

 

 

and i dont apologize for my words

Edited October 15, 2019 by ravenclaw_007

[+Erik 1,805]

I hang my head in shame for what our congress is allowing in this administration. With all those so called billions he has and with the full support of the US, this guy can't buy a clue. He's out for himself with very self serving motives. The entire thing is disgraceful.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Towers_Istanbul

Regardless of the outcome, Trump and Erdogan got pwned by Putin who's gotta be laughing his ass off right about now. 

 

[jeanba 1,920]

 

[+Menrva 4,197]

Erdogan rejects US ceasefire call: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-50064546

This can't be good, the situation is getting pricky. If Trump hadn't opened Pandora's Box by ordering the withdrawal of troops, now that madman wouldn't be so keen on genocide. I have heard reports of Russian troops putting themselves between the Turkish military and the Syrians, in order to avoid any confrontation between the two. I think Turkey is in for a big mistake, as Russia, the US and Syria are all on the same page.

[+Gepard 11,243]

Trumps decision was wrong. Never let an ally alone.

It remembers me on spring 1990. An soviet officer said to me: "Who will trust Russia in future, if we now let you alone!"

It was the first time, that i have heard the word "Russia" from a soviet military man. But the guy was right. You never abandon an ally. No way.

[Nesher 628]

Why does the US have stealth fighters if it doesn't use it for these kind of situations...

Edited October 17, 2019 by Nesher

[jeanba 1,920]

 

Edited October 17, 2019 by jeanba

[+Erik 1,805]

On 10/16/2019 at 11:45 PM, Nesher said:

Why does the US have stealth fighters if it doesn't use it for these kind of situations...

 

That statement would assume that our leadership had any kind of military experience but sadly not even the boy scouts. Be careful Nesher, Israel is next. First you'll go from yeah I spoke with Israel yesterday and we're friends. To Israel I think they brought some coffee to us once. To finally Israel who, I've never met them I don't know why we're withholding aid but ask my lawyer Rudy. People don't change.

 

 

[Nesher 628]

On 10/18/2019 at 6:26 PM, Erik said:

 

That statement would assume that our leadership had any kind of military experience but sadly not even the boy scouts. Be careful Nesher, Israel is next. First you'll go from yeah I spoke with Israel yesterday and we're friends. To Israel I think they brought some coffee to us once. To finally Israel who, I've never met them I don't know why we're withholding aid but ask my lawyer Rudy. People don't change.

 

 

I don't think the current or any administration would abandon Israel (even Obama which was clearly anti-Israel couldn't abandon), nonetheless, this is why we never relied on anyone but ourselves!

Heck, when the Frenchies decided to embargo us, we stole the blueprints to the Mirage and made it to the Nesher haha

 

BTW, your current administration had pretty much the same experience as the previous administration... 

https://www.facebook.com/letfreedomringyall/videos/551716401618456

 

Edited October 20, 2019 by Nesher

[+Erik 1,805]

Hen, that perception always confused me especially after the $85 Billion in military assistance. Sure there were a few scuffles and petty disagreements but those happen in any good relationship. The US Ambassador to Israel, Dan Shapiro, wrote a piece for the Washington Post. I would suggest to give it a read: https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/05/19/israelis-cheered-for-trump-but-they-may-miss-obama-more-than-they-expected/

 

[jeanba 1,920]

3 hours ago, Nesher said:

I don't think the current or any administration would abandon Israel (even Obama which was clearly anti-Israel couldn't abandon), nonetheless, this is why we never relied on anyone but ourselves!

Heck, when the Frenchies decided to embargo us, we stole the blueprints to the Mirage and made it to the Nesher haha

 

 

The context of the 1967 embargo was as follows:

DeGaulle imagined that he could decide of war and peace in the Middle-East by selling weapons to both sides.

In case of war, he thought that after 1 week of war, Israel would come to him asking weapons and replacement parts and in his infinite goodness, he would grant them weapons in exchange of a cease fire or peace agreement : this would have greatly strengthen his prestige and position in the Middle East. So when the war started, he embargoed.

That was a nice plan but unfortunatly, 6 days is less than one week and Israel (which was at the same time negociating with the US) did not need their Mirage. DeGaulle was felt humiliated and had veryu bad word toward Israel. Israel answered : we do not need France any more.

Of course, this was public, but in the background, France still wanted to sell weapons and Israel wanted the Mirage 5, so selling planes and blueprints and telling that they were stolen was a good way to keep everybody happy. "Business as usual" : the french were selling at the same times to Israel and her ennemies.

Add to this that if DeGaulle was for the embargo  most french were against, starting with Marcel Dassault (alias Marcel Bloch, who was jewish). Indeed, Israel had "legally" acquired the blueprints, which they had anyway before the 6 day war.

It was known several years after that Israel was assembling their Nesher based on a lot of Mirage parts which were manufactured in France:

When Argentina checked the Dagger, they saw that most parts of the structure had been built by SNIAS (now Airbus France) in continuous serial number.

Also, several US C130 flew  frequently from Blagnac to Israel with Mirage V parts. between 68 and 70.

Things got bad between Dassault and Israel with the Kfir, because Dassault was very unhappy to see this aircraft compete against the Mirage : business as usual.

Also, when Israel could buy A4 and F4E, the interest for french jets was much lower, not even thinking of F16 / F15 ...
 

[Nesher 628]

On 10/20/2019 at 5:21 PM, Erik said:

Hen, that perception always confused me especially after the $85 Billion in military assistance. Sure there were a few scuffles and petty disagreements but those happen in any good relationship. The US Ambassador to Israel, Dan Shapiro, wrote a piece for the Washington Post. I would suggest to give it a read: https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/05/19/israelis-cheered-for-trump-but-they-may-miss-obama-more-than-they-expected/

 

The aid is used to pump money to American companies while helping Israel, like buying F-35s, so we appreciate the help, don't get me wrong..

I will read the article soon, don't think it's going to change my mind about Obama, he was a bad president and not just for Israelis (I have a friend who is African-American jew [that I met during birthright trip], when we bumped into each other in Barcelona in 2012 she admitted to be disappointed with him but elected him for a second term because she's a democrat... ) 

[Nesher 628]

On 10/20/2019 at 8:55 PM, jeanba said:

 

The context of the 1967 embargo was as follows:

DeGaulle imagined that he could decide of war and peace in the Middle-East by selling weapons to both sides.

In case of war, he thought that after 1 week of war, Israel would come to him asking weapons and replacement parts and in his infinite goodness, he would grant them weapons in exchange of a cease fire or peace agreement : this would have greatly strengthen his prestige and position in the Middle East. So when the war started, he embargoed.

That was a nice plan but unfortunatly, 6 days is less than one week and Israel (which was at the same time negociating with the US) did not need their Mirage. DeGaulle was felt humiliated and had veryu bad word toward Israel. Israel answered : we do not need France any more.

Of course, this was public, but in the background, France still wanted to sell weapons and Israel wanted the Mirage 5, so selling planes and blueprints and telling that they were stolen was a good way to keep everybody happy. "Business as usual" : the french were selling at the same times to Israel and her ennemies.

Add to this that if DeGaulle was for the embargo  most french were against, starting with Marcel Dassault (alias Marcel Bloch, who was jewish). Indeed, Israel had "legally" acquired the blueprints, which they had anyway before the 6 day war.

It was known several years after that Israel was assembling their Nesher based on a lot of Mirage parts which were manufactured in France:

When Argentina checked the Dagger, they saw that most parts of the structure had been built by SNIAS (now Airbus France) in continuous serial number.

Also, several US C130 flew  frequently from Blagnac to Israel with Mirage V parts. between 68 and 70.

Things got bad between Dassault and Israel with the Kfir, because Dassault was very unhappy to see this aircraft compete against the Mirage : business as usual.

Also, when Israel could buy A4 and F4E, the interest for french jets was much lower, not even thinking of F16 / F15 ...
 

Needed a brush on my history lessons, thanks :)

[+Menrva 4,197]

On 16/10/2019 at 12:42 PM, Menrva said:

I think Turkey is in for a big mistake, as Russia, the US and Syria are all on the same page.

I eat what I said; apparently a new deal between Erdogan and Putin will allow the genocide, this time with proper Russian help it seems: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-50138121

The Kurds have been stabbed in the back by everyone. The EU is just watching. If it was for me, I would dare sending heavy European support to the Kurds. Turkey is no longer in NATO by facts, yet it's still in it because for our so called leaders it's important to have such an ally with one of the biggest armies of Europe. Self defence my ass, if western Europe would need the help of Turkey, I would 120% bet that Erdogan turns his back on all of us, despite of NATO rules.

Pretty ironically, the current events sort of remind me of Hitler. Strikes a deal with Stalin, we all know how it ended. Invades Poland, and the rest of Europe simply watches.

[+Erik 1,805]

It's all a huge charlie foxtrot.

[RUSTYMORLEY 162]

On 10/16/2019 at 7:40 PM, Gepard said:

Trumps decision was wrong. Never let an ally alone.

It remembers me on spring 1990. An soviet officer said to me: "Who will trust Russia in future, if we now let you alone!"

It was the first time, that i have heard the word "Russia" from a soviet military man. But the guy was right. You never abandon an ally. No way.

 

 

I agree, that is the whole point of an Alliance. Trump is forgetting his allies and abandoning them to their fate. !!!

[+Erik 1,805]

He's incapable of seeing allies and foes only people who can do or won't do something for him. No matter which camp those people fit into he'll use them like a tissue and throw them away when he's done. To his detriment he's single dimensional, transactional, and self aggrandizing. The US, it's citizens, and it's laws are beneath him. NATO member countries don't stand a chance. To him our ally's countries are below the dirt he walks on, non-white, anti-christian, shit holes, but he's sure some are very fine nations. (attempt at humor)

For the record most of us are completely embarrassed by his behavior regardless of political alignment.

 

[+Gepard 11,243]

From the stategic point of view the decision to leave Syria is correct. The USA are suffering from "strategic overstretch". They are engaged nearly all over the world. This is very expensive.

The old prussian king Friedrich II (Frederic the Great) once said: "Who tries to defend all, defend nothing!". Because the forces are overstreched, what means, they are to weak on the deciding battlefields. If you are to weak, your losses increase, the war time increases, the costs climbing into the skies.

To cure such a situation it is neccessary to concentrate on the deciding battlefields and to leave the non deciding battlefields, or to say it with General Guderian "Klotzen, nicht kleckern!".

Syria is a non deciding battlefield for the USA. The IS forces are knocked down. There are no ressources in Syria, which are important for America, nor is there a need for Air Bases or Naval Stations in this area. The USA has better places for such installations.

So it is a correct decision to retreat the US Forces from Syria.

BUT.

The withdrawal was made in the most stupid way. An efficient ally was abandoned, you can say betrayed.  The withdrawal was overhasty, valuable equipment was left behind.

 

Conclusion:

Nice idea, but bad try.

or

That's not how you do it!

Edited October 23, 2019 by Gepard

[+Menrva 4,197]

I am not sure I agree with you, Gepard. This retreat will be costing a lot more, with US troops relocating to Iraqi Kurdistan to watch over the IS prisoners there. Syria may not be of importance to the US, but to keep Turkey as a loyal NATO member is; however, Turkey is making agreements with Russia while the ceasefire agreed with the US was all but respected. And IS is all but knocked down, Turkish troops seem to be fighting Kurds and liberate the real terrorist scum that is IS. I for one am worried they'll come back as Erdogan's proxy army to terrorize Europe and keep us hostage of his mad policies. I remember that we, EU member states, paid him lots of money so that he kept the war refugees at bay in his borders. He surely used all that money for the army too, I guess.

I just hope things will take a good turn for the Kurds. They're paying a cost that's not theirs, with their own blood, sweat and tears...

Edited October 23, 2019 by Menrva

[+Erik 1,805]

... here's the problem with it all.

We're not leaving Syria. The small elite force isn't leaving, they aren't going to Iraq because they aren't welcome, so what are we doing? We're staying to protect the oil. We blew up our ordinances, left hardened bases standing, allowed the Turks to kill the Kurds, gave up our ground to the Russians and Turks all under the guise that we're coming home but we're staying. How does any of this make sense to anyone? Private bone spurs couldn't win at a game of "Battleship" against a 2 year old. Absolutely unbelievable.

[+Menrva 4,197]

Erik, do you think this is all part of Trump's attempt to gain votes for the next elections? That's the only thing I can come up with. Other than that, this is just pure suicide, militarily and diplomatically.

[+Gepard 11,243]

The correct way, i think, would be to throw away the Sykes-Picot "bullsh..t". The Kurds should have an own state. Such a state should be formed by negotiations with Turkey, Iraq, Syria and Iran. On short term the rulers of these nations lose some land, but on long term they get a stable situation, which is neccessary to get peace and prosperity.