Next TK flight sim?

[kct]

VBS (and VBS2) was the army training sim, although as far as I know Steel Beasts Pro (along with Steel Beasts Pro Personal) is purely a tank training sim, and an entirely different game. OFP was by the same guys that will eventually make VBS and then ArmA (jeez, I can't wait to see how ArmA 2 will be like).

 

A space sim? It would be funny in many aspects (imagine invading a tungsten launching platform).

Edited April 17, 2008 by kct

[+Major Lee]

It´s important to me to stay clear to all, this post was not started as a critic, but more as a compliment to TK and his effort.

My question about him doing next generation flight sim was because I feel we have few talented and passionated programmers like him capable to create really interesting flight sims.(not too arcadish ones,like Ace Combat)

I´m glad to see, this is an effort that probably will have future childs, if we support him in his work.

 

Well, TK is independent, methodical and determined. He "hears" the communities requests, but operates from his perspective and information. If one does not see what they want, they can mod it or pay him to do it, like Alex did with FE... I'd like a SW Pacific WWII game with Thunderbolts and Corsairs, but I don't think ever I'll see it as an official title...

[TX3RN0BILL]

VBS (and VBS2) was the army training sim, although as far as I know Steel Beasts Pro (along with Steel Beasts Pro Personal) is purely a tank training sim, and an entirely different game. OFP was by the same guys that will eventually make VBS and then ArmA (jeez, I can't wait to see how ArmA 2 will be like).

 

A space sim? It would be funny in many aspects (imagine invading a tungsten launching platform).

 

I KNOW what OFP and VBS are and I also KNOW that someone pulled it off to bring one of them to Steel Beasts and actually work together...

 

I'll search the BIS OFP forums for it, will post a link as soon as I find it...

 

As for my choice of Space Simulator it would be the best choice of something different TK stated he wanted to do, since he wouldn't need a terrain (unless he'd go with planets people could travel to, with seamless entry into atmosphere), and he could really meat out the space ship models... And make it as flexible as the SF series so that others can easily add their own spaceships etc... that would be awesome! Maybe enable something like continuous space in which non-combatant missions would also have their space...

[+SkippyBing]

For a space sim I want something like a cross between Elite (depressingly I'm old enough to remember the original, on tape) and the Third Wire Sims i.e. open moddable spacecraft with the option of trading or blowing stuff up.

[+Gr.Viper]

Anything close to this? Although ship design is done via built-in generator.

http://www.a-astra.com/

 

The game differentiates between athmospheric and open space flight. Trying to fly above ground without a wing is lethal.

And no loading time between space and planets.

[TX3RN0BILL]

Anything close to this? Although ship design is done via built-in generator.

http://www.a-astra.com/

 

The game differentiates between athmospheric and open space flight. Trying to fly above ground without a wing is lethal.

And no loading time between space and planets.

 

Nice find, thanx! Does it have multiplayer??

 

 

Edit: here's the link to Calytrix, the company that brings VBS and Steel Beasts together .

Edited April 18, 2008 by TX3RN0BILL

[+Gr.Viper]

Does it have multiplayer??

I don't think so... The game world is crowded as it is. Traders, pirates, police with flashing lights.. I think there are a few animals and plants on some planets too.

[kct]

TX3RN0BILL: Thanks for the heads up, it is good to see something new every day.

 

If I remembered correctly, VBS and such work in terms of modules, which is like TW games and mods/add-ons. Can't wait to see how ArmA 2 will shape up like...

[+Gr.Viper]

I remember finding a basic VBS out of curiosity. IIRC, there was a player-controllable sheep.

[TX3RN0BILL]

I don't think so... The game world is crowded as it is. Traders, pirates, police with flashing lights.. I think there are a few animals and plants on some planets too.

 

 

Cool, definitely gotta try it out, though it would be perfect if it had multiplayer, since most such games only have single-player (the few that have multiplayer are controlled via mouse and keyboard only - DISGUSTING!!! ) and I was looking for such a game in multiplayer to play in LAN...

 

As for VBS's animalities, I know that Operation Flashpoint has community-made addons where you can be a doberman, a tiger, a cow, a chicken, and a rabbit... and I think they made mule and horse "vehicles"... But the hunting season definitely got on after that... Those addons may work in VBS, but I wouldn't know...

Edited April 18, 2008 by TX3RN0BILL

[+pcpilot]

Interesting article about TK, thanks sparko. Despite some quirks in these sims I have always found myself coming back to them for a quick shot of action. Ive always liked the aircraft and cockpit graphics. Be interesting to see what area TK focuses on for his next sim since the aircraft for that era are probably already out in one of his other sims. I think Falklands would be nice. Since carrier ops and most of the period aircraft are available, itd be cool to see his take on a English carrier and harrier and VTOL. He'd be improving ships and water in his sims at the same time. Its bound to be exciting. Or perhaps switch from the allied perspective in his sims to the opfor view, say, a flight combat sim covering a hotspot in africa flying the old MiGs and Sukhois.

[TX3RN0BILL]

Or a fictional campaign covering a fight over the break-up over the USSR - featuring the (then) latest soviet aircraft - TK need not worry about avionics complexity, only alot of dials and analogue stuff in the pits of the russian birds...

[Stwa]

One thing I have always wondered about was the 3d engine and who actually held the source code to that. For WOV and WOE, I thought this to be Destineer, but are they still around anymore. I can't tell.

 

Hopefully, TK is able to make mods to the 3d engine itself, so it can adapt to new operating systems like Vista, or what ever is required. If not, his best bet is to keep churning out other theaters.

 

Currently I have the following maps/terrains on my WOE game with multiple campaigns...

 

Germany

Vietnam

Israel

Falkland Islands

Bering Strait

 

This covers a lot of the cold war hot spots, except one, Korea? So I would anticipate a game about Korea as the next jet game release.

[+Gocad]

Or a fictional campaign covering a fight over the break-up over the USSR - featuring the (then) latest soviet aircraft - TK need not worry about avionics complexity, only alot of dials and analogue stuff in the pits of the russian birds...

 

Maybe I'm wrong about this, but something tells me that sims featuring Russian planes only wouldn't do well on the market, at least not in most parts of Europe or the US. I know that some here will disagree, but that is what I think.

 

Not to mention that the fictional Soviet/Russian civil war scenario has been done to death already.

Edited April 19, 2008 by Gocad

[kct]

Maybe I'm wrong about this, but something tells me that sims featuring Russian planes only wouldn't do well on the market, at least not in most parts of Europe or the US. I know that some here will disagree, but that is what I think.

 

Not to mention that the fictional Soviet/Russian civil war scenario has been done to death already.

You're actually somewhat right in this case, but that was also because of the current state of the sim market (not everyone is willing enough to take the learning curve, especially the casual gamer/console market). It was more of a general situation.

 

The last sim to feature a predominantly Russian line-up, LOMAC, was quite popular. That was actually because a sim featuring predominantly Russian planes is not common in the market.

Edited April 19, 2008 by kct

[+streakeagle]

You're actually somewhat right in this case, but that was also because of the current state of the sim market (not everyone is willing enough to take the learning curve, especially the casual gamer/console market). It was more of a general situation.

 

The last sim to feature a predominantly Russian line-up, LOMAC, was quite popular. That was actually because a sim featuring predominantly Russian planes is not common in the market.

 

I would not submit LOMAC as an example of a game that succeeded because it was focused on Soviet forces.

LOMAC was actually an upgrade of Flanker which was purely a Soviet flyables game.

While Flanker was an excellent sim, its lack of US aircraft held it back in this market.

What made LOMAC a better option in the US besides the fantastic graphics was the addition of the F-15 and A-10 to the planeset.

The refusal to make an F/A-18 addon and instead adding a more detailed Su-25 did not go over well in the mainstream US market.

The idea of a Soviet helo being the next expansion, then ultimately breaking off into a separate game engine largely limits LOMAC's future given its limited moddability.

 

IL-2 followed a similar path.

While its graphics impressed many people and it had a good reputation as a complex/realistic sim, it was never going to be the success it has become in the US until people could fly P-51s, P-38s, P-47s, F4Us, and F6Fs.

The European market is somewhat different, but the majority of the US market clearly wants the option to fly US equipment FOR the US as the "good guys".

 

It will be interesting to see how Black Shark does in the US.

As a collector of flight sims, it may go on my shelf.

But like Falcon 4.0 AF, IL-2 series, and LOMAC, it may sit idle on my hard drive since it probably won't meet my current needs in a flight sim.

Not to mention the fact that I am not particularly interested in flying that helo :P

 

I personally like a balanced sim with equally modeled/detailed flyables for both sides.

TK's sims out of the box don't meet this criteria, but the addons available clearly remedy this problem.

The problem with addons is that they are not made to the same standard as the other stock aircraft.

Only TK knows exactly how to balance the flight models so that they have the right amount of playability versus realism to be compatible and comparable to the other stock FMs.

TK is also fairly good at providing the right amount of polygons/texturing to keep frames rates stable no matter which flyable you choose (WOI has set a new standard, so this isn't as true anymore until TK updates the older planes like the F-4 to conform to the new higher quality standards).

Edited April 19, 2008 by streakeagle

[+Dave]

One thing I have always wondered about was the 3d engine and who actually held the source code to that. For WOV and WOE, I thought this to be Destineer, but are they still around anymore. I can't tell.

 

TK holds the source code as it is his design. Destineer was just a producer. i.e. put the money up for those sims to be made.

[Murphy'S]

The problem with addons is that they are not made to the same standard as the other stock aircraft.

Only TK knows exactly how to balance the flight models so that they have the right amount of playability versus realism to be compatible and comparable to the other stock FMs.

 

it depends of the add on, someones are easily on the same level of the stock planes and some other are even superior in terms of functionnality.

 

just a example

 

the stock f-15 pit is good in terms of graphics but really lacks of functionnality when compared with the MF one (with the repaint mod)

[+Dave]

The problem with addons is that they are not made to the same standard as the other stock aircraft.

Only TK knows exactly how to balance the flight models so that they have the right amount of playability versus realism to be compatible and comparable to the other stock FMs.

 

I disagree there, it all depends on whose add-ons one is using. Some are really good, even better than the stock aircraft, some are not.

[kct]

Of course, that is without considering the current version of the games (WoI supports far advanced cockpit features for the current version, while WoV/WoE does not at the moment, as demonstrated by the Eurofighter add-on).

 

And yes, I was annoyed at the limited moddability of LOMAC, if that is anything. And the fact that they refused to allow pilotable 2-seater aircrafts (like the Su-30 and the Tomcat) on grounds of realism is a joke to me.

 

Generally, I would play the game if it had a flyable Tomcat >.> .

Edited April 19, 2008 by kct

[jodandawg]

hey it happens when it happens, I think one of the main things we all like about TK's games He updates them, he wont abandon them on release. Plus the open aspect so they can be modded by the open public.

 

 

amen to that!!!

[+Brain32]

Maybe I'm wrong about this, but something tells me that sims featuring Russian planes only wouldn't do well on the market, at least not in most parts of Europe or the US. I know that some here will disagree, but that is what I think.

 

What I have problem with is the "only" part. I would rather have a sim with two flyables(let's say MiG-29 and F-16) and everything else on both sides AI, than a sim with 8 flyables on one side and all AI on other.

 

This would actually be my main issue with SF series sims if there was no mods...

[+streakeagle]

I disagree there, it all depends on whose add-ons one is using. Some are really good, even better than the stock aircraft, some are not.

 

It depends on how you measure "better".

TKs are not espeically realistic when you measure performance, but generally match relative values (i.e. the F-4E out of the box in SFP1/WOV flies more like an F-16, but is still easily outturned by the MiG-17).

Addon aircraft FMs tend to shoot for realistic performance which makes them less capable than they would be against stock aircraft if TK had modeled them.

Also, addon aircraft are far more likely to give the AI trouble.

 

There are plenty of addons with enjoyable flight modeling...

But none of the few doing FMs knows what criteria TK is using to build his and therefore will never have FMs that fit perfectly into TKs unique balance of playability, realism, and AI friendly...

and when it comes to stability parameters (as opposed to performance figures), I don't even think TK has fully mastered his own game engine.

 

From a technical standpoint and seat of the pants feel, the addon FMs frequently are much better than TKs, but in terms of game balance and AI when mixed with stock aircraft, I don't know of any addons that mix well with stock FMs.

The only way to remedy this situation is to have the same group of people following the same standards provide FMs for every aircraft from stock to most obscure addon.

Until that happens (which apparently already did for First Eagles before the addon screwed things up), I personally don't like to fly missions with stock versus addons.

I much prefer having all addons or all stock and with multiplayer limiations making it favorable to stick with stock installs... that is where I spend my time.

Edited April 20, 2008 by streakeagle

[eraser_tr]

I remember a similar discussion eons ago about mixing stock CFS3 flight models with the vastly superior Avhistory 1% flight models.

 

I've yet to come across any matches that were glaringly unbalanced because of a difference in FM origin.

[+Dave]

Thus why I fly almost mostly add on vs add on.