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Stick

Remember Cope India.

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in the right hands the F-15C will take the SU-30MKI..no doubt

and they say that there aren't any skillfull pilot able to do the maneuvers needed to take down the F-15

so it's not that easy..

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in the right hands the F-15C will take the SU-30MKI..no doubt

and they say that there aren't any skillfull pilot able to do the maneuvers needed to take down the F-15

so it's not that easy..

 

Maybe an Su-30, but the MKI is a different kettle of fish. Its more advanced than the other Su-30s and IAF pilots are exceptionally skilled and trained. With that exception, yeah, that's pretty much spot on considering the difference in pilot skill/training between nations with the F-15C (who usually have the money to burn on training and similar/disimilar ACM) and nations that use the Su-30 series (who generally don't). The Su-30 may be be more advanced that the F-15C, but have that Eagle flown by someone who gets the kinda training the US or Indian pilots get and all bets are off! :yes:

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China's the big worry there. It's not like we'd conceivably go to war with India. But what were the conditions of the simulation? Did they just drop two planes like a dogfight in game? Or did they simulate the whole operating procedure and battlefield environment?

 

That makes all the difference. If an AWACS can direct the eagle to the flanker and get a shot off before the MKI can even fire off the first missile with this tactic, then it really doesn't matter. I'd probably be more worried about the airframe of the eagle than the enemy aircraft actually.

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in the right hands the F-15C will take the SU-30MKI..no doubt

and they say that there aren't any skillfull pilot able to do the maneuvers needed to take down the F-15

so it's not that easy..

 

 

With your airforce Id have no choice but to concur...grudgingly...because we are more allies than enemies.Your people have had a lot to do with our Sukhois than our Governments would be comfortable admitting.

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China's the big worry there. It's not like we'd conceivably go to war with India. But what were the conditions of the simulation? Did they just drop two planes like a dogfight in game? Or did they simulate the whole operating procedure and battlefield environment?

 

That makes all the difference. If an AWACS can direct the eagle to the flanker and get a shot off before the MKI can even fire off the first missile with this tactic, then it really doesn't matter. I'd probably be more worried about the airframe of the eagle than the enemy aircraft actually.

 

And what makes you think we wont be having an AWACS already in the air? Our ADDERS and ALAMOS also give us the range advantage, so my guess is an F-15 will be spraying chaff and concentrating on EW more than shooting missiles.

 

Besides Cope India was a first rate example where inferior Russian bested the engagement as a result of dynamic tactics.

 

Remember Vietnam.Remember Korea.

In the hands of able pilots the outcome of the fight can be very interesting

 

Complacency is the true enemy.

Edited by Stick

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Yeah, this new trend of having twice the scanning range compared to legacy systems and the newer Russian missiles having almost twice the range compared to Western platforms is going to be an interesting one to watch...

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in the right hands the F-15C will take the SU-30MKI..no doubt

and they say that there aren't any skillfull pilot able to do the maneuvers needed to take down the F-15

so it's not that easy..

 

 

:haha: That is the funniest thing I've read so far the F-15 does have an advanced radar but in terms of combat maneuverability the F-15 is no where near the MKI regardless of what the Eagle fans think. The stereotype that anything U.S is perfect and anything Russian is sub par is ridiculous at best.

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In terms of maneouverability the SU-30 MkI can fly rings around an Eagle. However todays aerial engagements are no longer classic dogfights.Didnt that German ace Erich Hartmann say dogfights are a waste of time? A sneaky Fishbed pilot can plant one in up the tailpipe of even the most modern fighter if its pilot couldnt detect the threat(speaking of which Flanker MKI rearward visibility is not good;I sat in one)

One must recall the Flanker was built as a counter to the F-15 which set the standard. Through the years as weapons have evolved it has gotten better. Then the Raptor came along. And so the race carries on.

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As much as I like the F-15C the Su-30 MKI is in a class by itself. It would come down to the pilot in that battle. But then we got the F-22 just for that purpose.

 

 

:haha: That is the funniest thing I've read so far the F-15 does have an advanced radar but in terms of combat maneuverability the F-15 is no where near the MKI regardless of what the Eagle fans think. The stereotype that anything U.S is perfect and anything Russian is sub par is ridiculous at best.

 

Uncalled for.....quit looking for a fight.

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:haha: That is the funniest thing I've read so far the F-15 does have an advanced radar but in terms of combat maneuverability the F-15 is no where near the MKI regardless of what the Eagle fans think. The stereotype that anything U.S is perfect and anything Russian is sub par is ridiculous at best.

 

usually when it comes to long articles i don't read everything.. but this time i did..

and you probably didn't and you didn't even read my whole reply to it..

 

yes, i'm an Eagle fan and i know the SU-30MKI is superior but it doesn't change my opinion,

and the things written in the article, so... laugh all you want mate :biggrin:

 

btw, i suggest you watch the series "Dogfights" (History channel)

especially episode 1x09 "The Long Odds"...

maneuverability isn't everything :good:

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Thts what I said, modern combat hardly relies on how good you can yurn but in fact how well you shoot at standoff.

Hartmann was prophetic on his take on the dogfight and comin g from the greatest ace in the world it means something.

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And given a choice of sitting in an Eagle or a Flanker Id choose the Eagle any day.Who wants to study Russian?

Our pilots had to go through a whole language course before they could get used to the cockpit and the avionics. And do it again when the newer version was inducted.

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The article referenced is actually a stub from a much longer article posted in Aviation Week - which is partially why it's a little confusing and incomplete.

 

India's successful encounter with American F-15's at the Cope India exercises involved the Su-30, but not the Su-30MKI. The classified simulations that the Aviation Week article is referring to (which were carried out by Boeing in 2002) refer to the Su-30MKI.

 

This subject was also covered in some detail in the March 2008 issue of Air Forces Monthly, which reviewed the pro's and con's of thrust vector control, and why the technology has not been more widely embraced in the West. The Boeing simulation concluded that, with the proper tactics, the Su-30MKI could take advantage of its TVC capabilities (and the massive radar signature of the F-15C) to provide an ensured kill. The following is an excerpt from the Air Forces Monthly article:

 

This assured-kill strategy reportedly involved three phases. In the first phase, the Su-30 would fire-off an R-77 (AA-12) missile from beyond visual range, taking advantage of the Eagle's massive radar signature to score the first BVR shot. The F-15's electronic countermeasures were expected to defeat this BVR challenge under most scenarios. By taking the first shot, however, the Su-30 pilot would be able to put his opponent on the defensive, distracting him long enough to close within visual range. In the second phase of the scenario, the Su-30 would turn into the "clutter notch" of the F-15's radar, making it difficult for the F-15 pilot to continue tracking his opponent. Finally, once it had closed on the F-15, the Su-30 pilot could take advantage of his post-stall agility to capture the Eagle in the infrared imaging system, framed against an uncluttered sky. With a positive lock-on for the Flanker's heat seeking missiles, the visual range kill became all but certain. The ability of the thrust-vectoring Su-30MKI to snap into firing position from virtually any closing angle spelled sure death for the large, and less agile F-15.

It should be pointed out that this strategy applied specifically to the current American F-15C fleet (without AESA radar upgrades), and may not have worked so well when applied against a mixed F-15/F-16 package, with a supporting AWACS.

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It was a an experiment to see how the American F-15C performed without AWACS, just as MiG-29's and other Soviet/Russian aircraft have engaged the F-15 or other American or western fighters in combat situations; blind and on their own. Of course it is a rather improbable scenario where opponents are equal in strength. Wars are never fought on an equal footing.

It is also mentioned quite explicitly in the article that it was the SU-30MK(training version) that participated in Cope India.The F-15s were tasked with intercepting a strike package.

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But then we got the F-22 just for that purpose.

 

In deed. Point being is. How many F-22 for how many open fronts around the world? Don't get me wrong, USA security is a big WeternCivilization security, that's why we should be more and closer to each other

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Well, the truth is fighter numbers are dwindling worldwide. A group of 40 F-22s would likely be able to dominate the skies of almost any country on Earth right now, the exceptions likely being only massive countries like India, China, and Russia. There geography alone requires more. While it would be great if more than 180 Raptors were built, the sad fact is the money isn't there.

 

I think the regular Su-27 has better visibility than the twin-seat models, the twin Flankers just look the 2nd cockpit is kludged back there. The F-15 twin seaters don't sacrifice as much rear vision.

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Well, the truth is fighter numbers are dwindling worldwide. A group of 40 F-22s would likely be able to dominate the skies of almost any country on Earth right now, the exceptions likely being only massive countries like India, China, and Russia. There geography alone requires more. While it would be great if more than 180 Raptors were built, the sad fact is the money isn't there.

 

I think the regular Su-27 has better visibility than the twin-seat models, the twin Flankers just look the 2nd cockpit is kludged back there. The F-15 twin seaters don't sacrifice as much rear vision.

 

Ive sat in one .The arc of visibility is at best 270 degrees.

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As I recall, the whole thing was stacked against the F-15s. They operated without AWACS, were plain Eagles without the AESA radar, and no JHMCS/AIM-9X. Call it a ploy to get more Raptors, or to allow the Indians to save face. Who knows. Although during the recent visit to the UK, the Flankers operated without radars and some leaked accounts stated the Typhoons did extremely well.

 

China's the big worry there. It's not like we'd conceivably go to war with India. But what were the conditions of the simulation? Did they just drop two planes like a dogfight in game? Or did they simulate the whole operating procedure and battlefield environment?

 

At that time, China was fielding the Flanker as quick as they could. Combined with them utilizing some Western tactics, they made some people a bit anxious. Now, reports are that the Su-30 has fallen out of favor with them as the J-10 has been shown to be better in trials and mock engagements. Again, the J-10 is an indigenous design, so maybe they are hoping to promote it's sales.

 

Storm

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They're not the same role, though. The J-10 is in the MiG-29/F-35 class, while the Su-30 is in the Super Hornet/F-22/Typhoon class.

I would expect the J-10 to beat a Flanker in a dogfight because it's smaller and a more recent design.

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This discussion got me to thinking...Ive always hated that the US Navy ended the Tomcat program. I know, it was an old airframe and avionics and getting costly to maintain. But it was still superior to the Hornet in certain tasks such as speed, long range interception, and air to air weps. The Phoenix missile was an awesome weapon, at least in its day. Theres a lot of course I dont know. But here's my question...with China fielding more Sukhois, the Navy pilots are likely going to struggle to maintain air superiority over the fleet with the Hornet much less project that superiority over enemy territory. AWACS and EW will help but arent a cure all I suspect. How would the Tomcat have faired aganst the Sukhoi?

 

Maybe Im just an old geezer for even asking...

Edited by pcpilot

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This discussion got me to thinking...Ive always hated that the US Navy ended the Tomcat program. I know, it was an old airframe and avionics and getting costly to maintain. But it was still superior to the Hornet in certain tasks such as speed, long range interception, and air to air weps. The Phoenix missile was an awesome weapon, at least in its day. Theres a lot of course I dont know. But here's my question...with China fielding more Sukhois, the Navy pilots are likely going to struggle to maintain air superiority over the fleet with the Hornet much less project that superiority over enemy territory. AWACS and EW will help but arent a cure all I suspect. How would the Tomcat have faired aganst the Sukhoi?

 

Maybe Im just an old geezer for even asking...

 

Now according to me it was the Tom that pioneered the concept of the fuselage generating lift at speeds when the wings couldnt.

That was incorporated in the flanker.

The phoenix was more bark than bite.Check its success figures. But a whole lotta bark. Imagine being shot at from 100 miles away...a greenhorn would first pee in his pants before thinking of evading.

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Iran reportedly got more kills with the 54 than the USN ever did, albeit still not that many. That was due more to maintenance troubles, though.

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This discussion got me to thinking...Ive always hated that the US Navy ended the Tomcat program. I know, it was an old airframe and avionics and getting costly to maintain. But it was still superior to the Hornet in certain tasks such as speed, long range interception, and air to air weps. The Phoenix missile was an awesome weapon, at least in its day. Theres a lot of course I dont know. But here's my question...with China fielding more Sukhois, the Navy pilots are likely going to struggle to maintain air superiority over the fleet with the Hornet much less project that superiority over enemy territory. AWACS and EW will help but arent a cure all I suspect. How would the Tomcat have faired aganst the Sukhoi?

 

Maybe Im just an old geezer for even asking...

 

 

The AIM-120D wont have the range of the AIM-54C but should have a better PK and the FA-18E/F can carry about 8/10 of them. The F-14D would be a better launch platform only on the basis of its speed - it would also need an upgraded radar to match the SuperHornets one.

 

As for going against an SU - depends on which variant of SU I guess and the support it has.

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