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wagsled

Phantom Tactics - At Least Some Things to Try

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To all Phantom Drivers (especially those frustrated by the dogfight performance of all F-4 models):

 

After deciding to check out the Phantom FM's as suggested by another virtual pilot here, I got fairly serious and flew several Combat Air Patrol missions with the F-4B. I used SFP1, fully patched, desert terrain, year selected was 1969. Load was 4 x AIM-9E, 4 x AIM-7E, centerline gun pod, no external tanks. All ended up as two-plane flights and the bogies were always MiG-21's for some reason; in the last mission there were 10 of them. (Believe me, I would have bugged out after a kill or two in real-life with those kind of odds, but since I can only hurt my pride here I stayed to fight.)

 

Anyway, I used the FM mods - further tweaked - that I suggested in an earlier thread, now shown here:

 

[FlightControl]

StallSpeed=65.15

CruiseSpeed=246.93

ClimbSpeed=231.5

CornerSpeed=216.07

MaxG=7.50

MaxSpeedSL=377.75

MachLimit=2.14

PitchDamper=0.75

RollDamper=0.4

YawDamper=0.1

GunBoresightAngle=-2

RocketBoresightAngle=-5

 

I'm pretty sure these are good numbers (at least for now) and I thought that the performance of the F-4B with these settings was similar to real life. Handling qualities are still a bit off, but I'm not smart enough to figure out how to change them.

 

Now to the tactics. The following are basic suggestions (as I remember them) directly from the USN TOPGUN School and the USMC Air Combat Tactics Instructor (ACTI) courses on how to fight low-wing-loaded opponents like the MiG-17's and -21's. If you use these along with some good common sense, the Phantom can be a real MiG killer...we proved it in Vietnam, over and over.

 

1. Fight them vertically - use the power of the Phantom and keep your speed up. Except at the top of the "egg", don't let your speed drop below 350 KIAS and only do that when you have to. Also, the MiG-17 doesn't roll well at high speed - no power boost on the controls.

2. Use lag-pursuit...best described as putting yourself in a pursuit curve that leads your a/c to a deep six o'clock position on the bogey. Think of it like a cone or funnel that the bogey drags around behind him with the small end on his tailpipe. You want to be in the wide part of the funnel, usually between 3/4 mile and 1 mile astern. Remember, the Phantom's primary weapon in a dogfight is the AIM-9, not the gun. Gun kills are the best - believe me, I know - but the gun is really there for situations when you just get too close and can't back off to beyond the AIM-9's minimum range - or for when you are out of missiles and can't bug out! Also, Navy and Marine birds didn't always carry a gun pod, so it wasn't even an option sometimes.

3. If you start getting slow, try to pass the bogey as close to 180 degree out as you can, unload (push the nose over), stroke the burners and extend. And, ladies and gents, I'm talking extend to five or six miles separation. Get lots of knots, 550+, select boresight on the radar and the AIM-7E, pitch up and back into the fight, auto acquire that bad-boy and shoot him in the face with the Sparrow. You'll find this works pretty well.

4. Finally, if you are getting into a bad position, tell your wingman to head for home, unload, go for the deck and get the hell out of there. You can always live to fight another day.

 

Using the above tactics (and a whole bunch of luck), I managed to get six of those ten MiG-21's I mentioned earlier, even though my wingman went down early in the fight, and then I flew home to land. Not a bad mission and, believe me, not at all representative of what a real dogfight against those odds would have been like. I truly doubt I could have made it home had that situation ever presented itself in 'Nam. Also, with my wingman down early, I would have taken the first opportunity to get the hell out of there. Four guys on the ground that need to be rescued is a lot worse than two!

 

Well, enough of my rambling. To those who want to give this a try, I'd love to hear some feedback. To those of you who already knew these tactics - apologies for taking up your time!

 

Salute to all,

 

Wagsled

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To all Phantom Drivers (especially those frustrated by the dogfight performance of all F-4 models):

 

After deciding to check out the Phantom FM's as suggested by another virtual pilot here, I got fairly serious and flew several Combat Air Patrol missions with the F-4B. I used SFP1, fully patched, desert terrain, year selected was 1969. Load was 4 x AIM-9E, 4 x AIM-7E, centerline gun pod, no external tanks. All ended up as two-plane flights and the bogies were always MiG-21's for some reason; in the last mission there were 10 of them. (Believe me, I would have bugged out after a kill or two in real-life with those kind of odds, but since I can only hurt my pride here I stayed to fight.)

 

Anyway, I used the FM mods - further tweaked - that I suggested in an earlier thread, now shown here:

 

[FlightControl]

StallSpeed=65.15

CruiseSpeed=246.93

ClimbSpeed=231.5

CornerSpeed=216.07

MaxG=7.50

MaxSpeedSL=377.75

MachLimit=2.14

PitchDamper=0.75

RollDamper=0.4

YawDamper=0.1

GunBoresightAngle=-2

RocketBoresightAngle=-5

 

I'm pretty sure these are good numbers (at least for now) and I thought that the performance of the F-4B with these settings was similar to real life. Handling qualities are still a bit off, but I'm not smart enough to figure out how to change them.

 

Now to the tactics. The following are basic suggestions (as I remember them) directly from the USN TOPGUN School and the USMC Air Combat Tactics Instructor (ACTI) courses on how to fight low-wing-loaded opponents like the MiG-17's and -21's. If you use these along with some good common sense, the Phantom can be a real MiG killer...we proved it in Vietnam, over and over.

 

1. Fight them vertically - use the power of the Phantom and keep your speed up. Except at the top of the "egg", don't let your speed drop below 350 KIAS and only do that when you have to. Also, the MiG-17 doesn't roll well at high speed - no power boost on the controls.

2. Use lag-pursuit...best described as putting yourself in a pursuit curve that leads your a/c to a deep six o'clock position on the bogey. Think of it like a cone or funnel that the bogey drags around behind him with the small end on his tailpipe. You want to be in the wide part of the funnel, usually between 3/4 mile and 1 mile astern. Remember, the Phantom's primary weapon in a dogfight is the AIM-9, not the gun. Gun kills are the best - believe me, I know - but the gun is really there for situations when you just get too close and can't back off to beyond the AIM-9's minimum range - or for when you are out of missiles and can't bug out! Also, Navy and Marine birds didn't always carry a gun pod, so it wasn't even an option sometimes.

3. If you start getting slow, try to pass the bogey as close to 180 degree out as you can, unload (push the nose over), stroke the burners and extend. And, ladies and gents, I'm talking extend to five or six miles separation. Get lots of knots, 550+, select boresight on the radar and the AIM-7E, pitch up and back into the fight, auto acquire that bad-boy and shoot him in the face with the Sparrow. You'll find this works pretty well.

4. Finally, if you are getting into a bad position, tell your wingman to head for home, unload, go for the deck and get the hell out of there. You can always live to fight another day.

 

Using the above tactics (and a whole bunch of luck), I managed to get six of those ten MiG-21's I mentioned earlier, even though my wingman went down early in the fight, and then I flew home to land. Not a bad mission and, believe me, not at all representative of what a real dogfight against those odds would have been like. I truly doubt I could have made it home had that situation ever presented itself in 'Nam. Also, with my wingman down early, I would have taken the first opportunity to get the hell out of there. Four guys on the ground that need to be rescued is a lot worse than two!

 

Well, enough of my rambling. To those who want to give this a try, I'd love to hear some feedback. To those of you who already knew these tactics - apologies for taking up your time!

 

Salute to all,

 

Wagsled

Sir, It does NOT get any better than this! Your insight is priceless! I always try to keep the fight in the verticle and use the "egg" a LOT. What I did not know is the 'winder' rule. I've been trying to use guns as my missles always seem to miss or turn into duds. Another thing is i spend a lot of time saving my wingman and the other guys in my flight even though i told my wing to cover my six. Please keep your memories comming I could listen to them til the cows come home!

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Wagsled,

 

Did you try Streakeagle's F-4B flight model? It's available on his website, and though it's optimized for SF with SP2A (where its stall and post stall characteristics should be fairly accurate), I believe that you'll find it to be the close to the real thing as long as you stay within normal flight parameters.

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No expert here, but I found that in the latest patched version of WOV, that F-4B flight model seems very unstable to me. An F-4C driver that I knew who flew with the Michigan ANG said that the F-4 was very stable at lower altitudes, that it took no finess to take off, and that at above 30,000 the airplane was barely able to get out of its own way - never mind being able to tangle with maneuvering migs. Those were his opinions a least.

 

I find the MF F-4G is very stable, and worth a look from someone with real Phantom flight experience.

 

Mike D.

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No expert here, but I found that in the latest patched version of WOV, that F-4B flight model seems very unstable to me. An F-4C driver that I knew who flew with the Michigan ANG said that the F-4 was very stable at lower altitudes, that it took no finess to take off, and that at above 30,000 the airplane was barely able to get out of its own way - never mind being able to tangle with maneuvering migs. Those were his opinions a least.

 

I find the MF F-4G is very stable, and worth a look from someone with real Phantom flight experience.

 

Mike D.

 

Mike,

 

You are quite correct regarding the F-4B in WOV. I dusted my WOV off this evening and tried the F-4B out in a dogfight with some MiG-21's. The basic handling is not representative at all, with directional control (yaw using rudders) for fine tuning a guns solution just about impossible. Pitch and roll seemed a bit slow to me as well and both those axes did not damp out occillations as they should. This is one of the reasons I changed the damper settings for all three axes in the F-4 data.ini. In the F-4's (all models I flew) as long as the stability augmentation was on and working (and it did most of the time), the Phantom was a pretty stable gun platform, especially at low to medium altitudes. In fact, we often turned roll stab aug off in dogfights so we could increase our roll rates and not experience any feedback (felt as mild, jerky push-back in the roll axis) from the augmentation. The F-4B in WOV is also over-powered. I never saw over 700 KTAS on the deck in any F-4, yet the F-4B in WOV will do 830...that's 1.15 Mach, way too fast.

 

I then installed the MF F-4G in WOV. Although it seems to be a bit less "twitchy" than the F-4B, it too is very over-powered and doesn't bleed energy as an F-4E would. I'm assuming they didn't put souped up J-79s in the F-4G - if they did, that might account for some of the excess power. I didn't get a chance to fly the F-4G, so I'm guess here. At any rate, try it out on the deck in full burner...something like 768 KTAS. I'd believe 685 KTAS on the deck, maybe.

 

I'm going to try some mods to the FM's for the Phantoms in WOV to see if I can get them to fly as I think they should. That won't mean they are correct, by the way; just that they'll sort of feel the way an old guy like me thinks they should.

 

Take care and check six!

 

Wagsled

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Mike,

 

You are quite correct regarding the F-4B in WOV. I dusted my WOV off this evening and tried the F-4B out in a dogfight with some MiG-21's. The basic handling is not representative at all, with directional control (yaw using rudders) for fine tuning a guns solution just about impossible. Pitch and roll seemed a bit slow to me as well and both those axes did not damp out occillations as they should. This is one of the reasons I changed the damper settings for all three axes in the F-4 data.ini. In the F-4's (all models I flew) as long as the stability augmentation was on and working (and it did most of the time), the Phantom was a pretty stable gun platform, especially at low to medium altitudes. In fact, we often turned roll stab aug off in dogfights so we could increase our roll rates and not experience any feedback (felt as mild, jerky push-back in the roll axis) from the augmentation. The F-4B in WOV is also over-powered. I never saw over 700 KTAS on the deck in any F-4, yet the F-4B in WOV will do 830...that's 1.15 Mach, way too fast.

 

I then installed the MF F-4G in WOV. Although it seems to be a bit less "twitchy" than the F-4B, it too is very over-powered and doesn't bleed energy as an F-4E would. I'm assuming they didn't put souped up J-79s in the F-4G - if they did, that might account for some of the excess power. I didn't get a chance to fly the F-4G, so I'm guess here. At any rate, try it out on the deck in full burner...something like 768 KTAS. I'd believe 685 KTAS on the deck, maybe.

 

I'm going to try some mods to the FM's for the Phantoms in WOV to see if I can get them to fly as I think they should. That won't mean they are correct, by the way; just that they'll sort of feel the way an old guy like me thinks they should.

 

Take care and check six!

 

Wagsled

Absolutly priceless! :clapping::good::victory:

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Wag,

Thanks again taking the time to write about all this. I know that it's probably a stretch trying to imagine a flight simulation being immersive enough to "feel" like you're in the real thing for a real world pilot of an F-4, and comparing joystick/rudder inputs to real-world controls that give real feedback and G- forces. My own real-world flying experiences translate to a couple of flights in the left seat of a Piper Cherokee and a Taylorcraft in the 70s.

 

When you can, could you make a couple of comments about after-takeoff and then landing approaches in combat with the F-4. What did you guys use for power settings on the climbout - did you pitch for airspeed, or use a specific pitch angle? Seems the sim has the AI birds climbing out at rediculous AOAs, and no one waits for the flight to form up. I think that missions should be designed to allow the flight to catch up easier and at much more shallow climb angles than most use.

 

How about landings - did you guys use the overhead tactical approach we always see at stateside airports, or did you come straight in? Another thing really missing is a TACAN system within the sim, which would make navigation a little more realistic. But alas, TK made it a "lite" sim.

 

Thanks again for everything,

Mike D.

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Wags as a favor could you post the your thoughts in this forum too so we always have them. Just amtter of making a new post and copying what you typed.

 

http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showforum=155

 

Finally I will have one of the leads from the Mirage Factory get a hold of you. We need your expertise on some F-4's and could use your insight.

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Wag,

Thanks again taking the time to write about all this. I know that it's probably a stretch trying to imagine a flight simulation being immersive enough to "feel" like you're in the real thing for a real world pilot of an F-4, and comparing joystick/rudder inputs to real-world controls that give real feedback and G- forces. My own real-world flying experiences translate to a couple of flights in the left seat of a Piper Cherokee and a Taylorcraft in the 70s.

 

When you can, could you make a couple of comments about after-takeoff and then landing approaches in combat with the F-4. What did you guys use for power settings on the climbout - did you pitch for airspeed, or use a specific pitch angle? Seems the sim has the AI birds climbing out at rediculous AOAs, and no one waits for the flight to form up. I think that missions should be designed to allow the flight to catch up easier and at much more shallow climb angles than most use.

 

How about landings - did you guys use the overhead tactical approach we always see at stateside airports, or did you come straight in? Another thing really missing is a TACAN system within the sim, which would make navigation a little more realistic. But alas, TK made it a "lite" sim.

 

Thanks again for everything,

Mike D.

 

Mike,

 

I certainly don't mind telling you a bit about the more mundane aspects of combat missions in the F-4. I'm not sure that the ThirdWire sims are able to simulate post takeoff rejoins and normal landing procedures (nor should they be, given that they are "lite" sims). Having said that, just for fun you can perform a normal rejoin following takeoff with this fairly common procedure. One good thing is that you are always the lead plane in TW sims. That will help make this a bit more possible.

 

Generally, we used single-plane takeoff (i.e. each bird took off on its own) although it wasn't uncommon to use formation takeoffs where each section of two F-4s took off in formation. That was used, not to be cool (although it was fun), but to get more birds in the air quickly. Even on the ground, the Phantom ate lots of JP-4 (fuel) and sitting around waiting to takeoff was not good. When we had to launch 12 or 16 birds at once, formation takeoffs were sometimes the answer. One difference from reality in this sim is that the entire flight, generally up to four a/c, all took the runway together, even if we then took off separately. Interval between each bird releasing brakes depended on things like the weather, type of rejoin briefed, ordnance load, etc., but usually between 5 and 30 seconds. (It could be longer if the weather was really dogs__t and we needed to rejoin in IFR conditions using the radar.) Two types of rejoin were normally used, turning or straight ahead. For a turning rejoin, once lead was airborne and cleaned up he would start a turn (could be level or climbing, depending on the situation) using about 30 degrees bank angle and a constant speed. Speed for rejoin was always briefed and was usually 350 KIAS. Wingmen joined on the inside of the turn, coming up along the extended wing line of the leader's aircraft until aboard. Once the flight of two or four was together, lead would proceed on course or look for the other flights to join in a larger formation. Straight ahead rejoin was as you might expect, lead held a constant airspeed (again usually 350 KIAS) as he proceeded on course and the wingmen joined from straight astern. That's how the sim portrays rejoin, but the speed (if you use autopilot just to watch) is usually too high.

 

Also, climbout was usually made simple by using around 360 KIAS to maybe 380 KIAS and taking whatever rate of climb that gave you. Of course, there were climb charts that you could use to make the most of your fuel, but that was not used in combat very often...just too much trouble to stay on the numbers. Your attention needed to be elsewhere and trimming the bird up to climb at 350 KIAS meant you didn't have to pay much attention to it.

 

For VFR landings, as long a no one was shot up or really short on fuel, mostly we would fly in formation to the initial point (six or eight miles out from the approach end of the runway), in a tight, right echelon formation at 360-400 KIAS at 1,500' (USAF) or 1,000' (USN/USMC). Lead would take the flight down the runway and, at the mid-point, would perform a pattern break turn to the left, pop his boards as he pulled power to idle, holding altitude level, and roll out 180 degrees from the runway heading, i.e. parallel to the runway, about 1/2 mile abeam, drop gear and flaps, and start his turn to land. Each wingman followed at 4 second interval, duplicating what lead did. If done correctly, this is an excellent looking arrival and got all birds on the deck pretty quickly.

 

Even when really tired from long flights or from a tough combat mission, pilots took a lot of pride in the way the formation looked coming into the field (or at the boat). The echelon formation had to be tight and steady (no bouncing around on the wing), the interval between a/c had to be the same (if #2 broke late, #3 and #4 used the same interval just to make it look good), and the turn had to be level. Many a wingman's backside was chewed for screwing up the "break". We had a saying, at least in the Marine Corps, about coming into the break, "Rather be dead than look bad."

 

Obviously, for bad weather or a shot-up bird, the straight-in approach either VFR or IFR was preferred. When operating from a runway, we often used formation landings in IFR conditions in order to get the birds down before someone ran out of fuel. Obviously, you can't do that at the boat! Flying a formation landing to full-stop in 100' ceiling and 1/4 mile visibility was really sporty - but then so was coming aboard the boat at night in lousy weather and rough seas. For guys operating off the boat, sometimes the most difficult part of the mission was just getting aboard! Lots of balls in those boys! (And now in girls too, I should add, given that we have female fighter pilots in the USN!)

 

Well, Mike, again I've rambled on...probably bored most folks silly. I hope this information was what you wanted but if not, ask again and add a bit more detail.

 

Take care,

 

Wags

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Wags as a favor could you post the your thoughts in this forum too so we always have them. Just amtter of making a new post and copying what you typed.

 

http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showforum=155

 

Finally I will have one of the leads from the Mirage Factory get a hold of you. We need your expertise on some F-4's and could use your insight.

 

 

Hi Dave,

 

As requested, I posted my reply to Mike D. in the other forum. I'll try to visit that more often now that I know it exists. If I can be of help to the MF folks, I'm happy to try.

 

Regards,

 

Wags

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Do you mind posting your tactics in there too? And thank you.

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"Well, Mike, again I've rambled on...probably bored most folks silly. "

 

no way!!!!

 

:good:

 

its great reading these details and tactics. I knew only some of them from my time as a controller - quite a bit different going to the cockpit from a 2d radar scope. Outstanding insight and very much appreciated.

 

:salute:

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Exellent reading Thanks so much for including your thoughts on the flight model. I'am an old USAF Crewcheif and I spent many a day and night on the flight line with the DCM stuck up my you know what turning wrenches on those bad ass Phantoms. Always wondered what it would be like to be in the front seat. Atleast now I can fly one with as close to real life FM's as possible.I hope you continue to post thoughts and tweaks on all the models represented in the game. Again Wagsled Thanks for your time and service then and Now.

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Wags,

One last question or two for now. I assume you climbout from the combat zone to a higher altitude for a more favorable fuel use rate - no ordnance now - to say 25-30,000 ft or so. (Is that right?) At what point do you begin the letdown to a slower airspeed and eventual pattern altitude. (No controller in the sim to tell you to). What kind of descent rate?

 

Maybe I should break out and dust off that old F-4C Dash One I own and see if I can figure out some of what's in there and how it can be applied to this flight sim!

 

Thanks a million, you've already helped make it more real already...

Mike D.

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Wags,

One last question or two for now. I assume you climbout from the combat zone to a higher altitude for a more favorable fuel use rate - no ordnance now - to say 25-30,000 ft or so. (Is that right?) At what point do you begin the letdown to a slower airspeed and eventual pattern altitude. (No controller in the sim to tell you to). What kind of descent rate?

 

Maybe I should break out and dust off that old F-4C Dash One I own and see if I can figure out some of what's in there and how it can be applied to this flight sim!

 

Thanks a million, you've already helped make it more real already...

Mike D.

 

Hi Mike,

 

You are correct in your assumption regarding climbout after hitting the target or exiting the target area. Usually the altitude you climb to depends on how far you have to go to reach homeplate or a tanker as well as how much fuel you have when you start the climb. For "normalcy" in this sim I suggest climbing to 20-25K unless you are a really long way from home and are already at Bingo minus for fuel. That should work out well in almost all cases.

 

One thought about fuel; since there is no aerial refueling and since tankers played such an important part of our operations in 'Nam and in the Gulf War (not sure about the Israelis, but they typically operate with much shorter mission ranges), I suggest you use the Normal setting for fuel. This sim seems to half your fuel used if you use that setting vs the Hard which sucks it up pretty much the way the Phantom really did. Otherwise you'll run short of fuel on any long or complex mission (read as lots of MiGs) and there is no place to top off or at least pick up that 2-3K pounds that will get you home. I hit the post-strike tanker on more than one occasion needing fuel right then or I was going to have to use the nylon descent mode...not the ideal choice!

 

There were two main types of enroute (VFR) descent used in the F-4; (1) Using Idle power, which results in a fairly steep descent and is started much closer to the field (rough estimate is to take your altitude in feet and start descent that many nautical miles (NM) from where you want to enter the traffic pattern), or (2) Use a "half nozzle" descent which means you set your power to hold half open nozzles and use that power during the descent. You'll make some small adjustments as you descend, but its easy to do. (BTW, the instruments showing nozzle position for both engines are at the very bottom of the engine instruments on the F-4 panel.) Rule of thumb, if I remember correctly, was to start a half-nozzle descent at about twice your altitude (again in NM from your pattern entry point).

 

I'm trying to recall the proper airspeed for both these descents and, as best I can recall, we used 350 KIAS. That could be off, however, as it's been 22 years since I last flew an F-4S at Pax River Naval Air Test Center in Maryland the day before I retired. As I write this, that seems impossible - but there you go...getting old means you're just a "has been".

 

Anyway, hope this helps a bit.

 

Cheers,

 

Wags

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One thought about fuel; since there is no aerial refueling and since tankers played such an important part of our operations in 'Nam and in the Gulf War (not sure about the Israelis, but they typically operate with much shorter mission ranges), I suggest you use the Normal setting for fuel. This sim seems to half your fuel used if you use that setting vs the Hard which sucks it up pretty much the way the Phantom really did. Otherwise you'll run short of fuel on any long or complex mission (read as lots of MiGs) and there is no place to top off or at least pick up that 2-3K pounds that will get you home. I hit the post-strike tanker on more than one occasion needing fuel right then or I was going to have to use the nylon descent mode...not the ideal choice!

 

Now thats interesting - Im pretty sure the fuel consumption can be changed in the data.ini file for each aircraft - which I may have to make a point of doing now :)

 

YAP have stuck in some KC-135s - though you cant take fuel from them - if you are low you just have to make it to the tanker and pretend.

 

Many thanks for that

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You can imitate refuel with warp - Alt+N. AFAIK, you don't consume any fuel for distance covered in this mode. But the exit moment is kinda random..

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Great advice Wags! Already I've changed my game's config thnks to your input, setting G's to Easy and Fuel to Normal. :yu:

 

 

Let me know what you think about these changes, GreyCap. You may - or may not - like them...it depends a lot on what you expect from the game. I personally look upon this as mostly just good fun, although I admit to wanting to get the FM for each model to be as close to reality as the game parameters allow. If I feel like the a/c is performing in a somewhat similar fashion to the real thing, then I'm perfectly happy. I know we aren't going to get full flight fidelity in handling qualities and performance and I can live with that in order to have flexibility for modification as the TW games have.

 

Regarding g-force effects, I have been told they can be modified. When I have time, I'll probably mess about with those settings a bit to see if I can get what I consider close to reality. If I can do that, I'll publish what I find for those who want to try them.

 

Regards,

 

Wags

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<<2. Use lag-pursuit>>

 

 

I find that I horizontally out turn Migs at 450+ knots (push them out) in an F-4. They bleed off airspeed trying to "cut the corner" and I simply end up on their tail after a few turns and gun them. This F-4 tactic was also in the Top Gun tactics book called Scream of Eagles.

 

In other words "my turn rate exceeds their turn radius"...they can't turn as well at high speeds as I can and I force them to fight at my superior speed. Those two huge F-4 engines push the truck around faster then they can.

 

Migs have pretty high airspeed bleed in tight turns be they the Mig-21 Delta or the sharply swept Mig-19. Remember, even the later versioned- F-86 Sabre is reputed to be able to out turn the Mig-15 in many cases at lower altitudes.

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Did the Navy ever even have gunpods for the F-4. I know that Osprey's US Navy mig killers book one would lead you to believe that they didnt. But I know some of you guys actually flew them, so I was wondering about that...

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Wags,

One more bothersome question to you. I read a review once when the Strike Fighters series first came out (by someone with F-4 experience) that he thought that the airplanes did not have enough apparent drag when the power was cut. Does this seem to be an issue to you? Thanks again for all of the input, I'm sure everyone here appreciates your time.

 

Mike D. again

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