F-22 for Israel.

[+Typhoid 231]

So does air superiority balance out power or is it more to do with economies now? Personally I think the balance of power these days is more down to nuclear weapons - look at Russia - economy aint the best - and as far as Air superiority goes they have a model of an F-22 with red stars on the wing - however they can wipe any nation they like of the planet with the press of a button.

 

 

ok back OT

 

 

Peace through Incineration!!

 

(sunglasses on...)

 

[Longestpants 1]

C'mon its just spreading the goodness. Besides its in the interest of Balance of Power.

 

Balance of power aside, I would be a lot happier of China only had, say, muskets and Piper Cubs.

[+Julhelm 266]

Because China has repeatedly shown itself to be an imperialistic expansionist aggressor.

 

With its institutionalized atheism, China is the west's best friend in the coming clash with the true expansionist aggressor which is radical Islam.

[Stick 773]

True,China is hardly the enemy.

[column5 63]

sadly, it was a previous export from Israel to China of US technology that will likely derail any export of the F-22 to Israel now.

 

How is that any different than the Clinton administration transferring classified rocket technology to China?

[+Typhoid 231]

True,China is hardly the enemy.

 

well.....................

 

perhaps not first in line.

[triplethr3at 0]

I am actualy surprised that Israel requested the F-22. Israel has a habbit of piking aircraft with moltirole capabillities. I know that the F-22 can drop bombs but I can imagine it to be a piss poor ground attack platform with its blistering speed, low AAA protection (aside from stealth) and low a-g loudouts. I think a Rafal or Grippen would suit Israel far better. On the other hand it is a superb A-A fighter and israel has taken dedicated fighters and transformed them into ground attack aircraft (mirage and F-15A) Israel also has a long standing arms agreement with America and such a deal tho lucrative leaves Israel with few options for buying aircraft. They are prety much limited to buying at least one american bird. So i guess there wont be any IAF flankers grippens typhoons or rafals. I would like to see israel try to pull of another kfir or lavi like project like an f-15 active varient.

[+Typhoid 231]

How is that any different than the Clinton administration transferring classified rocket technology to China?

 

that was our own classified rocket technology that Clinton committed treason by illegally selling to China in exchange for campaign contributions in violation of export laws, campaign finance laws, national security laws, etc..(which enabled China to correct significant problems in their space launch vehicles - that are also their primary ICBM force targetting the US, Asia and Europe....)

 

That wasn't technology that we imported and re-exported over the objections of the originators which is why a general crackdown on export releasibility has been going on.

 

an entirely different set of circumstances!

 

and I did say that all of us have had this problem.

[eraser_tr 29]

Russia doesn't have an F-22 equivalent yet, they're trying to develope one. You must have seen the concept art which looks near identical.

 

It's not the ICBMs that need to be worried about. It's the nuclear fuel cycle and all the loose material in the former soviet union. That and china has a more potent weapon than the F-22 or ICBMs: They own America, its economy and a gigantic proportion of our debt. We're dangerously reliant on them for nearly EVERYTHING.

[MigBuster 2,884]

Russia doesn't have an F-22 equivalent yet, they're trying to develope one. You must have seen the concept art which looks near identical.

 

It's not the ICBMs that need to be worried about. It's the nuclear fuel cycle and all the loose material in the former soviet union. That and china has a more potent weapon than the F-22 or ICBMs: They own America, its economy and a gigantic proportion of our debt. We're dangerously reliant on them for nearly EVERYTHING.

 

 

I dont think anyone has implied that Russia has an F-22 have they?

 

We import loads of things from China - though its more to do with cheaper cost than having any dependency on a single country.

 

and I think currently an ICBM would quite happily disagree with any countries economy by wiping it out regardless.

[censored 0]

that was our own classified rocket technology that Clinton committed treason by illegally selling to China . . .

 

That wasn't technology that we imported and re-exported over the objections of the originators which is why a general crackdown on export releasibility has been going on.

 

Just what US-origin technology do you think the Israelis sold to China? You've been reading too many editorials by people who don't know any better - and who tend to believe that anything that Israel develops for itself must automaticly belong to the US.

• The Phalcon AWACS system (which the Israelis never delivered) was Israeli developed, not US. Its AESA radar is at least two generations removed from the E-2 Hawkeyes that were delivered to Israel back in the 1970s. The Israelis, as some of us recall, had to develop the Phalcon on their own. There was no US equivalent available at the time.
   
   
  
• The aerodynamic design of the Lavi, as well as the structural design of that airframe were performed by Israel Aircraft Industries, not some US firm. The Israelis could (and did) provide technical assistance to China based on their Lavi experience, without having to transfer any US-developed components. The US does not have a monopoly on airframe design experience.
   
   
  
• The Harpy drone was developed in Israel. It has no US equivalent, and contains no US technology.
   
   
  
• The only rumored technology transfer that I have yet seen Israel accused of, that involved US-origin hardware, was the mis-reported transfer of Patriot missile technology - a rumor that made the rounds of Washington more than a decade ago. A US Defense Department team dispatched to Israel to investigate this rumor back in March 1992 reported that there was "no evidence of an unauthorized transfer"
  

 

Put simply, the US expects that because it supplies considerable military assistance to Israel, it should have veto authority over all Israeli arms exports, regardless of whether they involve US technology or not.

 

During the early and mid 1990s, the US was lax with regard to the transfer of technology to China. US firms sold "dual use" technology that they had no export license for, and Israel and the UK competed openly to supply AWACS to China - while the US failed to protest the competition. It was not until the late 1990s that the US reversed its policy and insisted that Israel cancel ALL military cooperation with China - including existing contracts. The Israelis had little choice but to comply, and the Phalcon contract was cancelled. After considerable US pressure, the Israelis also cancelled a previously signed contract to supply spares and technical support for the Harpy drones that they had already delivered.

 

The US of course has no such influence over its allies elsewhere. The UK continues to sell Spey engines to equip China's JH-7 fighter-bomber, and Italy continued to cooperate with China in the development of the WZ-10 helicopter. The US exercises a degree of influence over Israel that it does not hold over anyone else.

 

With regard as to whether the US would sell Israel the F-22, that very much depends on whether the US believes that the Israelis will have to go downtown over Tehran. The F-22 would be invaluable, both in providing air cover, and to target Iranian SAM sites in support of a larger strike package. Particularly if paired with the F-35 strike fighter, the F-22 would provide a lethal combination. US arms sales to Israel have always been a strategic investment, and if it appears likely that diplomacy with Iran is going to fail, there are some in the US who might prefer to have a proxy that can eliminate the Iranian nuclear sites rather than having to do the dirty work on their own.

[Alfons 0]

I don't think Israel will get any new US warplanes prior an attack in Iran. Iran will (if) have to be attacked in the next 12 months, or it might get close having a first bomb or at least dirty bomb. 2ndly, it takes a hell of a time to go through all the process of having the wish to order new warplanes to beeing able to have a target in the HUD. That can take at least 2-3 years, even with the already existing F22. So I guess there won't be any F22 or F35 hitting Iran, will probably be F-15's as the bombers and F-16 for air cover and ECM.

 

Regarding the question if yes or no USA should give Israel the F22's, dunno. As a patriotic american I would maybe say no, as an american business man I would say 'yes', as an american military head I would say yes yes for the sole reason of getting finally "real-life" feedback back of F22's bugs, troubles and lacks (even though they might be already used in Afghanistan and Irak).

 

Nevertheless, I do think Israel needs this airplane. Just read, that through its altitude ability of +19km and speed, it can drop boms from further away from the target, offering the projectile a bigger hit inertia (deeper impact), and on top of that being only a bird swarm blip on the radar of the enemy. That's simply invaluable. Not for Iran, but for the future. I don't think that Iran is the last threat, I do think there will be a bigger mess in the future in the middle east (10 years ahaid).

[+Typhoid 231]

"china has a more potent weapon than the F-22 or ICBMs: They own America, its economy and a gigantic proportion of our debt. We're dangerously reliant on them for nearly EVERYTHING. "

 

grossly overstated. But a valid point and growing concern. Which is, however, a double edged sword. THEY are equally dependent on US. Which is a point of stabilization. Generally, countries that depend upon each other for various things tend not to get into conflict with each other - pending of course some miscalculation or idiocy of their incompetent political class.......

[+Typhoid 231]

"Just what US-origin technology do you think the Israelis sold to China? You've been reading too many editorials by people who don't know any better - and who tend to believe that anything that Israel develops for itself must automaticly belong to the US."

 

enjoy......

 

 

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:i03YI...;cd=8&gl=us

 

Isreal is not the only offender. Every country, including the US, has re-exported technology received from someone else.

 

This has become a critical issue and a current (in my opinion to a level of over-reaction) issue with respect to sensitive technology. I do not see the F-22 being exported anytime soon because of this until a thorough analysis and export variant engineering and development that protects key, sensitive technologies is done. that is not going to happen soon.

 

I don't see either party in the current election cycle pushing to short-circuit that.

[JediMaster 451]

No one is coming here for nation bashing, so no one should go there. A reminder.

 

Israel buys mostly US because the US gives it money to buy weapons with...as long as they are US weapons. A very odd setup. That severely limits their ability to buy foreign equipment because there's little money for it. Besides, they prefer to develop their own stuff and stick it into our airframes. F-16s, F-15s, F-4s, Mirages, all of them have replacement radars, RWRs, and other avionics. They prefer keeping that stuff in-house so just in case there's a falling out with the US (they have a cultural mistrust of having to rely on anyone but themselves after decades of having allies turn their backs on them) they'll be able to upkeep their stuff for a significant amount of time. While the F-35 is being designed with the idea that different countries will be changing things around for their own industrial base's benefit, the F-22 was not. The cost to put different avionics in such a tightly integrated system would cancel out the cost benefits of added sales.

 

The funny thing of course is all the aid Israel has given to Iran on the QT over the decades to keep their planes flying amongst other things. That's why Iranian F-14s are still flying and are still viable. Of course, Iran wasn't their main concern then. Now it's slowly becoming that.

[+SkippyBing 8]

and we all know how good the brit government is at keeping classified information classified

 

Yeah to think we gave away all that information on the development of the jet engine, the Miles M.52 and the Atomic bombs to err... the US.

 

Anyways the problem the US has is if they don't export the technology to their more capable friends they'll just develop it themselves creating competition and reducing the US market share. Think TSR.2/F-111, numerous Stealth studies carried out in Europe, the Taiwanese fighter program. It's a double edged sword, you can keep your tech to yourself which makes the amortisation of development costs higher (i.e. more per unit airframe) or you can sell it and increase the risk in it ending up in the hands of people you don't trust.

[BUFF 8]

the UK continues to sell Spey engines to equip China's JH-7 fighter-bomber

No, they are licence built in China.

 

I seem to recall that P&W sold some gas turbines to China for civil helicopter use but some have turned up in a military chopper?

& then of course there is the nuclear submarine technology that China got by espionage plus others e.g. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...0203952_pf.html

[+Typhoid 231]

"No one is coming here for nation bashing, so no one should go there. A reminder."

 

absolutely concur and why I pointed out that the US is not blameless in this either. this is a general, overall situation.

 

my point is that the F-22 technology is not going to be exported anytime soon to anyone. (which is something that I personally don't actually agree with). When it does get it exported, as I am sure it someday will be, it will definitely not include "something".

 

I would like to see it "exported" to the USN!!

[+SkippyBing 8]

Out of interest how cutting edge is the tech in the F-22? I mean considering how long ago it began development, and I seem to remember LockMart had to modify it to take new processors as the original ones are no longer made. I'd hazard a guess that it's less the level of tech that's the concern rather someone else getting their hands on the software and finding a way to overcome it.

[+Typhoid 231]

Out of interest how cutting edge is the tech in the F-22? I mean considering how long ago it began development, and I seem to remember LockMart had to modify it to take new processors as the original ones are no longer made. I'd hazard a guess that it's less the level of tech that's the concern rather someone else getting their hands on the software and finding a way to overcome it.

 

it would be a combination of hardware, software, links, sensors, stealth technologies, and most importantly; how it is all integrated.

 

the processors would be the least important factors. You are probably running a better processor on your flight sim.....

Edited June 4, 2008 by Typhoid

[eraser_tr 29]

I have an israeli skin almost done for the F-22, if someone can give me a decal placement tutorial.

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

Isreal is not the only offender. Every country, including the US, has re-exported technology received from someone else.

 

Yeah, we sold them the HMAS Melbourne to be scrapped after it was paid off in the early 80's only to find out it was hidden up a river somewhere (I forget where exactly) and studied in great detail. We're only finding out now that it was inadvertently the lynch pin in the creation of the PLAN carrier programme!

 

But the Chinese have turned that into an art. But I can't fault them with that really, they've done what they had to to get over the mistakes made by previous generations in order to becoming a super power. And they've done a great job of that, they're well on their way.

[censored 0]

No, they are licence built in China.

 

I seem to recall that P&W sold some gas turbines to China for civil helicopter use but some have turned up in a military chopper?

& then of course there is the nuclear submarine technology that China got by espionage plus others e.g. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...0203952_pf.html

 

I know that as of 2002, Rolls Royce was still shipping completed engines to China, not just parts. They may have tranistioned to shipping kits since then. Most nations that "license manufacture" US, UK, or other Western hardware actually produce very few of the components that go into that aircraft or engine. Their "license" to manufacture is usually just a "license" to assemble.

 

You are correct about the P&W engines, however. China purchased the engines from P&W's Canada division, ostensibly for a civilian helicopter application. The engines were later diverted to the WZ-10 military helicopter program.

[JediMaster 451]

The problem with so called "dual use" tech is almost EVERYTHING could be called "dual use." I mean, don't tell how the Chinese how to make crops produce more, they'll use that food to feed their ARMY. What about nuts and bolts and hammers?

Launching satellites is a legit peaceful thing to do, but of course it's also related to ICBMs. Oh no. An engine is an engine, but they can stick it in a military vehicle!

 

The main thing is if you DON'T sell them something, someone else will. The F-22 is only in this position right now because it's unique. No one else is building them, no one else has them. When another country starts making 5th gen fighters, it won't be so unique anymore.

[Mannie 21]

Oh man I'm getting a little confused here.

Yesterday I saw that Olmert is going to ask for the Raptor, And an hour ago I hear that the deal is The F-35.

Its ether Those man in the newspaper don't know $hit about the world of aviation, or our PM can't make up his mind.

Or both.

<S>