French army chief of staff resigns!

[Emp_Palpatine 501]

I spoke a few days ago about french army problems.

Here is a new one:

 

http://www.iht.com/articles/reuters/2008/0...FRANCE-ARMY.php

 

Sunday, during a show, people were shoot with live ammunition. This put in light heavy problem unofficially spoked about by military men (included some I've met): lack of training in shooting/arms manipulation because of the logistical nightmare the FAMAS is, and because of not enough money. Bad plannings, trainings etc too.

 

Today, the Chief of staff resigned. Most politic analysts agree on the fact that the accident is not the sole fact of this resignation, and that the growing dissent in the army has much to do with it.

 

What's your opinion of this accident? I have no military training, but I used to shoot a lot and my instructor always told me to act just like my arm was fully loaded with live ammo, not to aim people, open the breech when not used, etc etc. I'm quite surprised that for this show, they choose to direct fire to the public by hidding there one of the targets, I'm surpised that basic cautons have been by passed...

 

Hope the wounded will get well.

[ONETINSOLDIER 2]

Thats just awful, heads should roll all the way down the line for this. Im not blaming the french army as a whole, as this could happen anywhere, but there is no excuse for this.

[eraser_tr 29]

Heads should roll. They have trained soldiers not obeying the most basic rules of handling a firearm, and considering a civilian crowd was going to have blanks fired in their direction, they should have been as careful as humanly possible. Imagine if the same mistake happened with a tank, or at an airshow!

Edited July 1, 2008 by eraser_tr

[+Typhoid 231]

Heads should roll. They have trained soldiers not obeying the most basic rules of handling a firearm, and considering a civilian crowd was going to have blanks fired in their direction, they should have been as careful as humanly possible.

 

concur. How a magazine could have gotten into the vest of one of the men involved or left there from a previous exercise is something that just defies any explanation.

 

No excuse and a lot more resignations will doubtless occur before the investigation is over.

[macelena 1,070]

The french armed forces face lots of challenges for their size, wich means loosing time and money in deployments that

don´t let train properly. French pilots get 75 flight hours before qualifying for fighter pilot, while neighbour

pilots, as far as i´ve known, spent some more (Spanish pilots make 160 for airforce or 300 if they are navy)

 

The status of french air defence is also troubled by this lack of money for training, scramble times are around 10min between the order arrives and aircraft fly- something in wich french were outstanding

 

The fault is not of military, but due to the politicians trying to get a cheap armed forces- french are brave and motivated, but lack of the proper respect by people, making politicians not to dare giving them a nick due to the public opinion response

[Emp_Palpatine 501]

The fault is not of military, but due to the politicians trying to get a cheap armed forces- french are brave and motivated, but lack of the proper respect by people, making politicians not to dare giving them a nick due to the public opinion response

Indeed.

Since the end of the cold war, and even before, French armed force and their budget are seen as a reserve of cash. In the left or in medias (that's quite the same), the army and military expanditures are hated. "Useless, should build more schools, and blah blah blah".

As France is almost in Bankruptcy (as said PM Fillon in september), they have been, for years, foraging into military budget. Hence low training, sinking skills and finally, tragedy like sunday. As said a MP today, governement pretend to have 2.6 of GDP in defense, the truth is nearer to 1.5 because figures are manipulated and because military pension are added in that percentage.

 

All that waste for what? Giving money to an already inefficient school system (but still wanting even more money in recurrent demonstrations. The more they get, the worse the pupils level get...) or an overcostly welfare system.

[ONETINSOLDIER 2]

Sorry, but I beg to differ with the excuse of "lack of training"

Basic weapons rule #1- THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN UNLOADED WEAPON.

#2- " " " " " " " " " .

#3- " " " " " " " " " .

 

I dont care how "poorly" you are trained, I learned this rule at about age 6.

 

(I am equating loaded with the use of blank rounds)

Edited July 1, 2008 by gwar

[+Jug 99]

The french armed forces face lots of challenges for their size, wich means loosing time and money in deployments that

don´t let train properly. French pilots get 75 flight hours before qualifying for fighter pilot, while neighbour

pilots, as far as i´ve known, spent some more (Spanish pilots make 160 for airforce or 300 if they are navy)

 

The status of french air defence is also troubled by this lack of money for training, scramble times are around 10min between the order arrives and aircraft fly- something in wich french were outstanding

 

The fault is not of military, but due to the politicians trying to get a cheap armed forces- french are brave and motivated, but lack of the proper respect by people, making politicians not to dare giving them a nick due to the public opinion response

 

Well said, macelena. Problems that manifest themselves in serious breaches in discipline happen in all services in all countries and the commander on watch at the time bears the ultimate responsibility. Resignation is the honorable method of accepting responsibility for actions during the commander's watch. I seem to recall that the US Air Force went through this routine recently. Comes with the turf and is part of the price of the privileges of office. It is worthy of note that departure from the service under these conditions has a bad habit of covering up the splendid, professional careers that resulted in the assignment in the first place. The fact that some soldier, sailor, marine, or airman really stepped out of line and, as usual with military equipment, dealt lethal damage to the community he/she serves is not a sign the entire force is troubled. Bad eggs always make it by the best of screening processes.

 

I usually have a field day with the French, but my humor and ridicule is aimed at their politics, not their military which is very professional. The French military does not appear to be well served by the politicians they protect.

 

This is not the exclusive situation of the French. Many other nations do the same thing.

 

What else is new?

[Emp_Palpatine 501]

Sorry, but I beg to differ with the excuse of "lack of training"

Basic weapons rule #1- THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN UNLOADED WEAPON.

Had the same reaction!

I've no military training, but I do vividly remember my shooting instructor enormous wrath when I dared, when I was novice, forget to open the breech or dared answer "sir, it's a one-shot weapon" or "But i'm sure it's empty!"

 

What has to be know, regarding french army, is that live shoot are limited to... 3 a year! The ammo are so expensive, and the FAMAS so bad (it can't stand sustained shooting without losing its shape, over-heating etc...) that french soldiers shoot only 3 live bullet.

No doubt about the sillyness of forgetting basic rules. That's why heads are begining to fall today. But I do think the problem is much much wider in french armed forces.

Edited July 1, 2008 by Emp_Palpatine

[+streakeagle 871]

While the French army may have funding and corresponding training issues... even the best funded forces with the best training will have accidents.

Humans make mistakes... period!

I felt during my time in the US Navy that too much time and money was wasted trying to avoid the unavoidable... human error.

For instance, quality control problems led to the sinking of the Thresher (SSN-593)... so a new paperwork intensive program that tracks every critical part involved with the sea worthiness of submarines from manufacturing to installation to removal... the subsafe program.

I was trained as a basic Quality Assurance Inspector.

My job was to review both the part being installed (say an o-ring or a valve) and also sign of at key steps in the installation procedure.

For each place I had to sign, there were at least two other places for redundant signatures.

Finally, the CO had to sign off the paperwork... so everything was really done in quadruplicate.

Despite this overwhelmingly redundant process... I still observed bad parts getting through and/or being installed incorrectly.

In one case, the system did its job on the same valve 3 times!

A check valve with an arrow on it was being welded into a pipe with arrows on it... yet the valve was welded in backwards 3 times!

The diesel exhaust valve on AGSS-555 developed a problem and needed some maintenance, when they dissassembled it, they found a 2 foot piece of 2by4 (which wasn't the problem and had been there for at least a year or two).

I can assure you that there was a stack of paperwork from when that valve was last worked on signed by dozens of people that assured us that the job was done 100% correct... so the 2 by 4 must have teleported in while at least 3 inspectors and 1 or more workers weren't looking.

 

Changing regulations and training to the nth degree will not stop 1 or even 100 people who are tired and overworked (or even well rested and idle) from making mistakes.

At best, it will minimize the risk... but as with anything there is a law of diminishing returns.

Also, if you spend all of your time and money training... you won't get any of the real work/operation done either.

 

If people in the armed forces are never allowed to make mistakes (even fatal ones), there soon won't be anyone left in the armed forces as they will sooner or later be punished.

Certainly, there is such a crime as negligence and punishments for committing it should be enforced accordingly... but there should also be such a thing as forgivable mistakes.

Drawing the line correctly in legal terms that can be understood and adhered to is the real challenge.

I personally think the entire US has become too risk averse such that people are afraid to do their jobs because they know they will make mistakes and that there will be dire consequences for making those mistakes... this is not only a bad mindset for the general population of a nation that wants to stay strong and competitive, but a disaster in combat situations.

Soldiers in a combat zone engaging what they believe to be the enemy should be able to pull the trigger without having to hesitate to second guess their own judgement... or the enemy who has no such rules will kill them while they consult their legal references.

 

In the case of this French Army accident, I don't see enough info to know how this happened...

But as a former armed watch stander, a civillian with a concealed carry permit, and a hobbyist with rifle and pistol shooting, I can't imagine loading my weapon without having checked that the ammunition is in the magazine correctly and in a good condition to fire when in a non-combat/life-or-death situation... whether loading live rounds or blanks.

I don't know why the soldier didn't check... i.e. it may not have been his fault due to the combat simulation nature of the display...

But unless someone handed him everything just before the demo and ordered him out to shoot in the demo, I would place 99% of the blame on him.

 

The tragedy for the French Army is that because of his mistake, a lot of soldiers who could be spending their time on their regularly scheduled training and exercises are going to have to drop what their doing to comply with whatever new training/regulations come about due to this one mistake.

It is this knee-jerk reaction to every single mistake that is made that was killing the US Navy.

After Tailhook, the entire Navy had to stop for hours to watch sexual harrassment training videos because a bunch of officers (mainly aviators) acted in a way that was clearly unacceptable before Tailhook ever occurred. Of course, their behavior was traditional despite being wrong. The only reason it became a problem was because one woman decided to prosecute... which then had a domino effect as that encouraged a lot of the other women involved to come forward. So in addition to sexual harrassment training, we had to be trained on how to follow regulations rather than tradition.

My question is, why were traditions and regulations so far in opposite directions? The same people who wrote and enforced the regulations were the biggest supporters and participants in illegal traditions ranging from drinking excessively to hazing to inappropriate sexual conduct.

 

There are several reasons why I didn't stay for a full 20 to 30 years in the Navy despite already having 8 years in... among them were my complete loss of respect for the leadership above me ranging from my Chief of the Boat all the way to Washington D.C. If I am willing to risk my life for my country, I think the least my country can do is provide qualified leaders with honesty and integrity that will not squander my time (and life) with their ignorance, negligence, and career ambitions.

I served under some very good people... but more often than is acceptable for submarine operations, I saw leaders that would have been "fragged" for their incompetence had they been leading a platoon in Vietnam.

[serverandenforcer 33]

Just as an FYI, U.S. forces sometimes make these mistakes as well (re: live rounds used instead of blanks). I for one know first hand when I was at Silver Flag for ground combat school prior to deploying to Iraq. I wasn't on the receiving end of anything that had happened, but the next day, everybody had to double check the ammo 'cause apparently, an assault pack for an M-249B was loaded up with live rounds instead of blanks. Fortunately, the BFA (blank firing adapter) gave the immediate notice that a live round was fired. Nobody got hurt, but I think some underpants had to get changed. After that incident, we treated every blank shot fired as if it were a live shot, because we didn't know if an actual live round had "accidentally" been switched with the blanks. I got to develop a close relationship with the ground.... a very close relationship.

[macelena 1,070]

These kind of mistakes are too dangerous and not taken seriously. A friend of mine, serving in shore patrol, was bitched this way when basic. I guess that it happens with all marine corps over the world, but he only noticed that he fired a live round when his g-36 grenade launcher hit- and blowed a f***ing wall til kingdom come (these were supposed to be rubber ammo for drilling) At least, the urban range got a realistic hit

 

Btw, what happened with robocop? clint eastwood? didn´t you see his gay-shooting at "Kelly´s heroes"?

[macelena 1,070]

Indeed.

Since the end of the cold war, and even before, French armed force and their budget are seen as a reserve of cash. In the left or in medias (that's quite the same), the army and military expanditures are hated. "Useless, should build more schools, and blah blah blah".

As France is almost in Bankruptcy (as said PM Fillon in september), they have been, for years, foraging into military budget. Hence low training, sinking skills and finally, tragedy like sunday. As said a MP today, governement pretend to have 2.6 of GDP in defense, the truth is nearer to 1.5 because figures are manipulated and because military pension are added in that percentage.

 

All that waste for what? Giving money to an already inefficient school system (but still wanting even more money in recurrent demonstrations. The more they get, the worse the pupils level get...) or an overcostly welfare system.

 

In Spain, a newspaper said that with the money spent on the EF2000 would have served to build 1500 standard schools, but we have enough schools, and i never saw any school shooting down Bandits. The trouble is that western citizens live in a world of fashion, wellbeing, and can´t believe that world is cruel, unfair, and not designed for confort. ppl should not only enjoy its prosperity, but deserve it, and if the whole west is not minding their armed forces,if they dont care their troops, they won´t have either their freedom and rights ensured-nor deserved.

[JediMaster 451]

Yes, a large network of schools and other welfare programs will certainly prevent invaders from attacking. I mean, just look at the insanely difficult time the Nazis had getting past the French school system.

 

Do people have such short memories that they can't remember WWII?? A weak defense invites attacks from

A) a country in a worse situation who is jealous/thinks they can get something out of it

B) a country in a better situation that thinks they can get something/distract from problems at home

C) jealous fundamentalist nutjobs that can't understand why THEIR way (which MUST be correct) hasn't given them as nice a life/culture/country as those who live a DIFFERENT way (which CAN'T be correct), so obviously their "god" thinks they must attack

[Emp_Palpatine 501]

Yes, a large network of schools and other welfare programs will certainly prevent invaders from attacking. I mean, just look at the insanely difficult time the Nazis had getting past the French school system.

 

Do people have such short memories that they can't remember WWII?? A weak defense invites attacks from

A) a country in a worse situation who is jealous/thinks they can get something out of it

B) a country in a better situation that thinks they can get something/distract from problems at home

C) jealous fundamentalist nutjobs that can't understand why THEIR way (which MUST be correct) hasn't given them as nice a life/culture/country as those who live a DIFFERENT way (which CAN'T be correct), so obviously their "god" thinks they must attack

Indeed... For me and you, it's ununderstable! But I'm quite used to it, as an european and especially as a French. Never forget that during the cold war, in most Europe (especially Germany, and widely in the french left and media) the moto was more often "better red than dead" than "let's resist the soviet". After two world wars, war or it's potentiality is seen as an horror that must be avoided at all cost, not even a last measure. It's understable when you think about the destruction suffered... but it's nonsense, and that's what I believe, when you recall that an earlier war (let's say in 1936 or 1938) would have avoided the big one and prevent much heavier destructions. It will be the case in future decades, I'm afraid: "no war!" until it's too late. And they will be catch unprepared.

 

Another point is that today, military spendings are seen as pointless, even more since the end of the soviet threat. Most people in Europe don't believe in any threat from the south or from a potentially revived Russia or China. Terrorists? Bah, they fight these american cowboy who are not as raffined as we are, gentle and so nice europeans.

Silly, uh? But so common here...

 

And as for French situation: that's usual anti-military populism. That's also what the government do (even so-called conservatives): give money (defense's one) to all these socialists beggers: school system, trade union...

BTW I loved your point on the school system and nazis!

[serverandenforcer 33]

These kind of mistakes are too dangerous and not taken seriously. A friend of mine, serving in shore patrol, was bitched this way when basic. I guess that it happens with all marine corps over the world, but he only noticed that he fired a live round when his g-36 grenade launcher hit- and blowed a f***ing wall til kingdom come (these were supposed to be rubber ammo for drilling) At least, the urban range got a realistic hit

 

Btw, what happened with robocop? clint eastwood? didn´t you see his gay-shooting at "Kelly´s heroes"?

 

 

Nope, didn't see that, but that doesn't mean that the guy is gay. It just means that he's an... actor.... which is what he is Robocop was getting old, but I might bring him back.

[herman01 0]

France had the largest Army I think before World War II. I also dont think France is under any threat in the forseeable future from any of its neighbors and so their spending on Defense might be justified. I dont think that the a General should have lost his job becuase of some privates mistake. If his policy on firearm safety was flawed then maybe. It just doesent make any since though that he didnt have a blank adapter and he pointed his weapon at people.

[+Gocad 26]

I dont think that the a General should have lost his job becuase of some privates mistake.

 

But that's how it works. Some call it responsiblity, others politics.

[Emp_Palpatine 501]

France had the largest Army I think before World War II.

Not quite the largest, but indeed one of the best ones!

In two-three years (1937 onward), rearmament efforts made wonders! And on 10 May 1940, when Germany attacked, we fielded almost the same number of troops and had more tanks (and better ones).

 

What made the difference? We lacked bombers and fighters: our industry was not modern enough to fulfill the army demand (hence the huge numbers of planes (P 36, P40, Bostons, and even prototypes like P38 and B-24) we bought or at least commanded from the US in 1939, 1940.).

The really difference was fighting spirit in the state elite and army and in some part of the society: politician and lots of high ranking officers did not believe in victory, and the 30's pacifism had made tremendous dommages in the population.

But the troops did indeed fought like lions. Some town changed hands 17 times! The invasion cost, for 45 days, 100 000 dead to germany, and 150 000 (or more...) to us. But with retarded defense doctrine (that defensive thing), bravery was not enough. And in June, as Germany had broken the line for the second time after awfull battles on the Somme, the pacifists and defeatist jump on the occasion to surrender.

 

I also dont think France is under any threat in the forseeable future from any of its neighbors and so their spending on Defense might be justified.

Not from neighbours, indeed. But who can tell?

But from the south? from China or Russia in the future? And what about the defense of our oversea possessions? In a case of a Falkland-like attack on our islands (possible from Brasil, Venezuela, Indonesia...), we just can't defend or reconquer them.

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

They were pointing rifles at crowds of people? Why?

 

gwar::

Sorry, but I beg to differ with the excuse of "lack of training"

Basic weapons rule #1- THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN UNLOADED WEAPON.

#2- " " " " " " " " " .

#3- " " " " " " " " " .

 

Maybe not lack of training, but lack of culture. Here in Ussia, alot of people will hand a pair of scissors with point toward you. I refuse to take it until they turn it round, and if they keep fussing I just walk away.

[herman01 0]

Its not a commanding officers responbility to check all the private's weapons. Maybe he set the show up to include the pointing the weapons and firing at the crowd part.

[firehawkordy 34]

Its not a commanding officers responbility to check all the private's weapons. Maybe he set the show up to include the pointing the weapons and firing at the crowd part.

 

It IS the responsibility of the Senior NCO to do just that, however, the resignation of a senior officer points to a far bigger problem. Look to a massive shake up in the French armed forces. I hope to see a lot of fools losing their jobs over this. My God what were they thinking?