tomcat F-14

[Echarlie 0]

prolly not worth the effort cuz the graphics are so old. I still have it just so I can read the manuals.

[gbnavy61 1]

Despite its abilities and combat record, the F-15 has never been as much of a popular showboat with the general public... until the Strike Eagle. There were two stars of Desert Storm as presented by the news media: the F-117 and the F-15E. The F-14 was pretty much benched during Desert Storm since its primary capability, the AIM-54, was too expensive and increased the likelihood of friendly fire kills.

 

First, while I know the AIM-54 was an expensive missile, I got the impression that not using them was in the long run more expensive than firing them off. So, that arguement in and of itself, doesn't seem to hold up very well. As to the increased likelihood of a blue on blue kill, I'm not sure how the Phoenix increased that risk.

 

One also has to consider how politics played into Desert Storm. Perhaps you weren't aware, but the USAF was managing the overall air-to-air mission tasking. I don't think it's too far a stretch to think that F-15's got the lion's share of the kills becase they were the only ones providing CAPs in the likely engagement areas. In total, the Navy only got 2 air-to-air kills during Desert Storm, both by F/A-18s, on a single mission.

 

Apart from that, have you heard of the term "MiG repellant?" That is what the AWG-9 was to Iraqi aircraft during Desert Storm. They had learned the hard way throughout the 1980's what a Tomcat could do if you didn't just run away from it. So, I guess we also have to thank Iran for spoiling the Tomcat's chances for kills. But, in spite of the Israelis successes and the F-15's combat record, it doesn't seem like the Iraqi pilots were loathe to engage them. Perhaps they learned that later, though.

 

For OEF and OIF, the Tomcat was by no means "benched." During OEF, due to the long flights into Afghanistan and lack of Air Force bases in close proximity, the Tomcat was practically the only tactical jet flying up there for a good while. Not only could it bomb accurately, but it could bomb more accurately than F-15Es - which is why for delicate targets in populated areas, FACs called for Tomcats. The analogy I've heard is: the Strike Eagle could put a bomb into a building; the Tomcat could put a bomb in the 3rd floor window, second from the left.

 

---

 

I'm sure I don't have to say this, but given the choice, I'd go Super Tomcat all day, every day.

Edited August 13, 2008 by gbnavy61

[turkeydriver 4]

Truth be told I thoroughly enjoyed Top Gun Fire at will as a sim, not the cheesy acting crap-I never was lucky enough to own Fleet Defender or Fleet Defender Gold. Janes US navy fighters and ATF were horrible survey sims at best.

 

The F-14 will not be made into a sim because of all the red tape to get through to make a sim. It will never be sold in a store as a package sim at the Falcon 4 level because 1)Iran still flies it and 2) its systems are still classified. We all know that the AWG-9/APG-71 and AIM-54 missile had their weaknesses, but their capabilities are classified-and its not because of NCTR or JTIDS or the IRST on the F-14D-the As have the same treatment.

 

The F-14 was prevented from kills in Desert Storm for a few reasons-none having to do with the cost of the Phoenix. The US Air Force was light years ahead of the US Navy at that point in the realm of target ID when good guys and bad guys are everywhere. The navy could care less because when you're blue water-you know that radar blip closing on the carrier is pretty much a bad guy, and the E-2C can confirm it. The F-15C was also the model of how a military weapons system should be taken care of. The update programs added what was needed at the right times-the F-15C had NCTR, (I think JTIDS as well) and was naturally the weapon of choice from an E-3 operators point of view because you KNEW it would be shooting at the guy you wanted it to. The F-14As and 2 squads of A+ in Desert Storm did not meet the requirements to process a hostile target without the confirmation of an E-3. The Iraqis did indeed run and hide from F-14s and did indeed engage F-15s(to there very quick demise).

In Wings of Fury by Michael Wilcox(READ THIS BOOK) an F-15 pilot humbly admits that he and his wingman were successfully baited by a MiG-25 and then promptly bounced by a MiG-29 at their 9 o clock. It was luck that they were able to I believe outmaneuver the inexperienced pilot and he split S'd into the ground.

It's apparent that you are as much of an eagle lover as I am a tomcat lover. BTW the navy still puts up recruiting billboards with F-14s on them-at least they did in 2007.

[MigBuster 2,884]

You're forgetting the big ugly A-10 and C-130.

 

Lol - Everyone knows the Hercules im sure - but if your going down that route why not The Douglas CH-47/AC-47/DC-3 Skytrain (Dakota)

[Gr.Viper 131]

CH-47/AC-47/DC-3 Skytrain (Dakota)

In USSR it was known as Li-2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisunov_Li-2

[column5 63]

I'm sure I don't have to say this, but given the choice, I'd go Super Tomcat all day, every day.

 

You just can't go wrong with the F-14D. Strike, BVR, WVR, whatever.

[+Typhoid 231]

"Perhaps you weren't aware, but the USAF was managing the overall air-to-air mission tasking. I don't think it's too far a stretch to think that F-15's got the lion's share of the kills becase they were the only ones providing CAPs in the likely engagement areas. "

 

a point that I personallly heard confirmed by Gen Horner.

[commander 0]

It would be interesting that at naval air shows Grumman would have a heritage filght with all its Cats, Wild cat to tomcat.

[gbnavy61 1]

It would be interesting that at naval air shows Grumman would have a heritage filght with all its Cats, Wild cat to tomcat.

 

I think it's about time for Grumman to crank out the next Cat.

[column5 63]

"Perhaps you weren't aware, but the USAF was managing the overall air-to-air mission tasking. I don't think it's too far a stretch to think that F-15's got the lion's share of the kills becase they were the only ones providing CAPs in the likely engagement areas. "

 

a point that I personallly heard confirmed by Gen Horner.

 

That s**t apparantly goes back years though. They wouldn't let John Glenn get his 5th kill in Korea, either.

[Mannie 21]

streakeagle.

 

Could you please point me to where you have found the article about the Israeli pilots that evaluated the F-14 and the F-15 in the 70's, that led to the ISAF (IAF) decision to choose the Eagle in the end?

 

Thanks.

[+streakeagle 871]

streakeagle.

 

Could you please point me to where you have found the article about the Israeli pilots that evaluated the F-14 and the F-15 in the 70's, that led to the ISAF (IAF) decision to choose the Eagle in the end?

 

Thanks.

 

Reread my post... it inlcudes the reference, an Osprey Combat Aircraft #67.

[Mannie 21]

Reread my post... it inlcudes the reference, an Osprey Combat Aircraft #67.

 

Thanks a lot buddy.

It was a pleasure reading your post.

It was the first time I heard of the real reason of the ISAF to choose the Eagle over the Tomcat.

Thanks again.

[JediMaster 451]

Let's face it, the F-4 never was glorified in a film like the F-14 was...twice. Granted The Final Countdown wasn't as much into it as Top Gun was, but it was there first. The F-4 hit its stride when Hollywood broke up the love affair with the military that had existed since WWII. It was TFC that started to reverse that trend.

The F-15 likewise has never had the film treatment, but it has its mythical kill ratios in the Middle East to brag about.

[Echarlie 0]

Something that always irked my soul.

The Navy got great movies like "Top Gun" and "The Final Countdown"

While my beloved USAF got the "Iron Eagle" series. Some of the worst movies ever made regardless of genre.

 

And the biggest insult of them all....

Taking the grand old F-4 Phantom, painting a red star on her and calling her a MiG-29. (Iron Eagle II)

BLASPHAMY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

What an insult to both the Phantom and to the Fulcrum.

 

I walked out of that movie as soon as I saw that.

[+streakeagle 871]

Long before "Top Gun", there was a TV movie called "Red Flag" about an F-4 pilot obsesed with beating his old Vietnam War buddy who keeps kicking his butt with an F-5 Aggressor. It lacked the star power and music of "Top Gun", but the plot lines are not that much different. If you are a true aviation fanatic as opposed to being obseesed with the Tomcat, I think it is worth watching just to compare.

 

The only real movie I can think of that showcased the F-4 to some extent was "The Great Santini", but the movie was more about the how the family of an alocoholic career fighter pilot struggled to overcome their problems with only a little footage of the F-4 at the beginning and end of the movie.

 

The main character of the TV series "Call to Glory" (played by Craig T. Nelson) was and F-4 pilot, but it was more of a soap opera about life on the ground. A few episodes showcased various aircraft including the F-4.

[column5 63]

If you are a true aviation fanatic as opposed to being obseesed with the Tomcat

 

LOL, it really burns you that the Tomcat has a large following of people who appreciate it, and that it is more well-known than the aircraft you perfer, doesn't it? Its just a fact of life that the F-14 is a great plane that got immortalized.

 

Edit: Also, I'm concerned that you feel the need to call Tomcat fans cultists, when no one here is threatening your view of the F-4 and F-15. Everyone recognizes that those are outstanding aircraft and most Tomcat fans here recognize that the F-15 has points of superiority.

[Caesar 305]

So, you're saying I can't be an true aviation fanatic and like the Tomcat? Sorry, but that plane shaped my life and made me obsessed with fighter aircraft and aviation in general. I am an aviation fanatic and a Tomcat lover and I consider the latter to be in the same category.

 

EDIT: And just to piggyback a bit about what C5 said, what the hell is the deal with the excessive attacks against Tomcat fans? I would write a long diatribe on the Flying Brick and the Ego as a reply, hell I've got enough literature and have met enough people to tear both of those planes apart like you've been trying to do with the Turkey, but honestly it'd just piss off the people here who love those planes to include people who have flown and maintained them, just like your instigation of the Turkey crowd, so I ain't going there. What's the deal, man?

Edited August 13, 2008 by Caesar

[gbnavy61 1]

Ditto to the above two. What's your deal, Streak?

Edited August 13, 2008 by gbnavy61

[Southernap 1]

F-15 vs F-14 vs F-4 vs anything else

 

Give it a rest. First off you are comparing apples to oranges to plums.

 

Remember this:

 

The F-4 was designed and built by the Navy to do Fleet defense in all weather with an all missile weapons systems. It wasn't designed to mix it up over the beach. Why? Because the future held that you were either going to be dropping nukes or preventing planes from dropping nukes. IFF and Visual ID'ing a target in the days of radar and missiles was considered obsolete. Just look at the RAF and the RN after the White Paper published by the Ministry of Defense in 1957. Basically it said that the United Kingdom didn't need manned fighters when missiles could do it better and cheaper. So instead of upgrading and improving some good lines, they were left with the Lightening. A capable jet but by the time it was removed from front line service in the mid-80's was severely outclassed by even the targets it would have to attack. The only reason the USAF picked up the F-4 was that they saw a capable jet which could replaced the F-100, F-104, and F-101 in front line service. The USAF were the first to consider putting bombs on the thing and using it in the strike fighter role.

 

The F-14 actually began all the way back in 1957 with the requirements for a USN Fleet Defense Interceptor. Even as the Navy was seeing the potential of the F4H-1 (F-4A) they also realized that to properly defended a Carrier Battle Group from attack by Soviet Naval Aviation bombers and thier long range cruise missiles. The biggest problem was that the F-4 had a small radar suite and it didn't have the gas to hang out 100+ nautical miles from the Carrier waiting for the oncoming Badgers, Bears, Blinders, Bisons, Beagles. So the USN issued a requirement for a subsonic aircraft that was was able to loiter for 4 plus hours, be designed to carry either the AIM-47 Falcon or the AAM-N-10 Eagle long range radar guided missiles, it also had to be able to carry a radar that could see out 150nm from the aircraft. This requirement lead to Douglas designed an aircraft called the F6D Missiler. Basically this was an airplane that had a three man crew (pilot, co-pilot, RIO) it mounted the APQ-81 airborne radar system a radar under design at the time whose major feature was a five foot across radar dish, and could carry a load of six AAM-N-10 Eagle missiles out to a 200nm from the carrier and loiter there for 3.5 hours. It was subsonic and it was being designed to utilize the TF30-P-2 engine. Finally the aircraft was being designed to link into the Navy Tactical Data System (NTDS), which basically links all the radar information back and for between everyone on the network. This was going to work well with the W2F-1 Hawkeye which Grumman was designing at the time to replace the WF-1 Tracer. The idea was that both of these aircraft working in tandem could successfully engage a SNA bomber regiement and whittle it down for the F-4's,F3H Demons, F8U Crusaders to play clean up or turn it all over to the Talos and Terrier launchers on the escorts.

The furthest the F6D made it was design and testing of the radar suite, money on the Eagle missile (where were basically going to be fire&forget radar guided and capable of flying at Mach 5 out to a range of 100nm from the aircraft). Some cool little drawings and a few blue prints. As costs began to sky rocket in the early 1960s, Ike's administration killed the plane. Some of the requirements were revived in McNamara's TFX project. The long range, loiter time, and the ability to carry the AAM-N-10 Eagle and the TF30 engines. TFX became the F-111A and F-111B for the USAF and USN respectively. F-111B failed to make carrier suite ability testing and it was scratched, in turn it was replaced by a new Grumman Design coming from the lessons learned about the F-111B which became the F-14. As Streak pointed out the early downfall of the F-14A's was the TF30's. However, the F-14A was originally designed to incorperate the F100 engines, these fell through as the deadline for a flying prototype neared. Instead Grumman went with the back up TF30's on the hope that the F100s would materilze in time. They did not and BuAir decided that to re-engineer the F-14 to incorperate the F100s into the airframe and supply system would of costed too much money. The F-14 was already approaching near records at the time for development. A few other items changed as well during the change from F6D to F-14. The Eagle missile were canceled in 1968 and instead Hughes redesigned thier AIM-47 to become the AIM-54 Phoneix which incorperated ideas from both the AIM-47 and the Eagle missile. The AIM-47 was originally slated to arm the YF-12 Mach 3 interceptor. One of the things this missile had going for it was that it was designed to basically achieve a ballistic arc to its target. The Rocket motor threw it up into the stratosphere, where the air is thinner, and then used that to achieve a Mach 6+ speed. Once it neared the target it could recieve a quick update from the launching platform and then dive down on the target to kill the target from either the kenitic energy alone or through the use of it proximity fuzing to detonate a continuous rod style warhead.

With the filing of the Ault Report in 1968 some additional features would be added to the F-14 from the original designed signed off in 1967. A gun system would be added and to help improve long range Visual Identification a camera system would be added as well. The F-14 came in to do the job of going out killing Soviet cruise missile carrying bombers with its AIM-54 Phoneix, it could be guided via data link by the E-2 Hawkeyes and track these targets and kill up to six of them with the AIM-54. If needed it could mix it up with the escorting fighters, but it really wasn't built for that. The USN kills against the SU-22's in 1980 and the MiG-23s in 1989 were through superior training and skill of the aircrews, not just because of the airplane itself.

 

The F-15 meanwhile was designed to be a heavy weight fighter that was designed to engage at long range on the NATO side of the missile belt then go in and mix it up over Central Europe with the MiG-23's and its precieved primary opponent at the time the MiG-25. It was believed when the MiG-25 was seen by Western Intelligence that it was a heavy weight fighter design to come ripping in at high speeds lay waste to NATO air space and then go ripping out of there. It was also thought that the MiG-25 with it large control surfaces would be able to out turn its Western Opponents. It wasn't until the F-15A had started to hit front line service in the mid 70's and with the capture of Belenko's in 1976 at Tokyo that the actual role of the MiG-25 was realized. That was as a bomber interceptor. It had zero dog-fighting capabilities. By then it was too late to redesign the F-15. However, there were some serious advantages gained by having such a large aircraft. MacAir designed it to be a total lifting body airplane, so it could create lift just with the fueslage itself and not by the wings alone. Also with the large size of the aircraft it could carry a large load of gas and carry a very large radar suite which would give it great loiter time and the ability to see the a large amount of the airspace in front of it. Finally just like the F-14 saw the reintroduction of the gun into Navy tactical aircraft use, so did the F-15 saw with th Ault reports lessons learn see the reintroduction from the get go the gun back into USAF usage.

The other interesting thing about the F-15 was that its design was being built by the "Fighter Mafia" inside the USAF at the time. So there was not a single idea nor thought of hanging air to ground ordanance on it. The F-15 was designed to be a fighter in the same vein as the P-51 and F-86 were before it.

 

Think about that for a second. The USAF wanted a fighter and the US Navy wanted an Fleet Defence Interceptor. Two different missiles that lead to two different aircraft being accepted into US inventory. So don't get so wrapped around the axel about the differences between the two aircraft. They are two different types of missions assigned to them.

 

Oh and as to the F-14 carrying air to ground ordanance. That was tested out by Grumman during the initial testing and the software was written to delivery the Mk80 Series bombs and the fighter community inside the Navy nixed that idea. They thought it would detract from training for thier primary mission of interception. So until the early 90's air to ground wasn't even thought of for the F-14. With the retirement of the A-6 and the need for a long range strike platform that air to ground was re-introduced to the platform. Which served it well during the opening stages of the War on Terror.

 

 

Fighter Pilots make movies, but attack pilots make history!

[turkeydriver 4]

Ditto to the above two. What's your deal, Streak?

 

I'm sure he's just as passionate about the F-15 and is sick of the internet postings about the tomcat-which contrast his perspective on the tomcat as a big heavy interceptor that got popular because of Top Gun. He may feel like we're trying to discredit the F-15 or F-4, when all 3 jets are really very different aircraft.

 

F-4=big, heavy, FAST, turbojet, multirole aircraft that started as a pure interceptor. Vietnam, Yom-Kippur, Iran-Iraq, and world wide sales made this jet a worldiwde icon.

F-14=big, heavy, FAST, turbofan, designed from the outset as multirole, but focused on A-A for most of its career, with excellent recon, bombing, FAC, and other capabilities as it matured. This jet made a name for itself to the public with mere looks alone, and to those who know better by its awesome capabilities and record as a "MiG repeller."

F-15=big, lighter weight, FAST, turbofan designed from the outset as a fighter(not a lb for A-G) that stayed as an excellent A-A platform, and had an excellent A-G version developed from it. This jet, like the F-4 made a name for itself by establishing records based on its performance and battle record.

 

Little known fact-the F-14s LANTIRN pylon was actually the pylon made for the F-14D to carry the HARM(cancelled project). This helped make the LANTIRN integration super cheap.

[JediMaster 451]

As someone who seen tons of films and read tons of books on aviation, I have never heard or seen any of these F-4 projects other than their ridiculous appearance in Iron Eagle 2 and bit parts in other films covering the Vietnam era.

 

Therefore, regardless of whether or not any were made, the point still stands--the F-14 got to shine via big name, big budget productions while the F-4 (and even the Hornet, for that matter, as I can only remember it being shot down on film) got no love from Hollywood.

This has nothing to do with how good the planes were in relative terms, but it has EVERYTHING to do with how many people will be fans of them.

[commander 0]

Look the F-14 looks like it can fly, which is one reason there is a huge fanbase, not because of battle record but by looks, and those are : big heavy fast powerful (big great Pheonixes) flyable survivable and demonic (shark mouth). the f-15 and f-4 are great aircraft and probably better than the f-14 in certain respects, but the cat just looks the part, it looks like it could drive off an entire army by itself.

[Carlos_Tex 2]

hum i don´t think f-4 has many positive points better than f-14. the f-14 was conceived to replace the f-4 and it did with better manouverability better weapon systems better avionics better trhust to weight ratio, although it had some problems with TF-30 P-412A and P-414A but remember these engines were not designed for the F-14.

 

The F-15 is a different story though it was the first Us plane since the F-86 conceived for dogfighting and air dominance a pure fighter. The F-14 is an interceptor although it still can hang very well in a dogfight and in the hands of an experienced pilot.

[New Guy 1]

Well, regardless of different or similar ideas behind them, those planes are some of the best (known, capable, etc.) out there. But I've always loved Tomcat since the beginning

 

Cheers to the Grumman Twin-tailed Cat!!!