Break up of United States?

[sugarblues 0]

Gents,

 

You also have to remember an important point: News reporting died years ago - today it's "info-tainment". Splashy headlines a la the tabloid press is what outfits like CNN live for - and what could be better than some Russian Economist predicting the break-up of the USA. Hah... the day the US breaks up, the rest of us are going to be in such bad shape we wouldn't be able to notice... Americans come in all different creeds, colours, and political stripes and religious beliefs, but they're all Americans. That's what makes them strong... Something Russia has always had trouble understanding, especially back during the cold war...

 

SB

[ezlead 42]

The rest of the world better hope that this never happens.

No more NATO,SEATO,The UN(We pay most of the bills).

No more Foreign Aid. (Billions of dollars)

No more U.S. Military to bail out the oppressed nations.

No more U.S. economy for China,Japan,Mexico,Etc.

The Third World would rapidly become the 4th or 5th World.(Stone Age)

[+streakeagle 871]

Historically, no single political entity be it a mere country or intercontinental empire has lasted indefinitely.

The last vestiges of the British Empire are still lingering, but has definitely been on a downslide since the rise of the United States from WW1 to WW2.

The United States may as yet get stronger before it is supplanted by the next world superpower or it may already be on the verge of disintegrating... only time will tell.

[GwynO 16]

Historically, no single political entity be it a mere country or intercontinental empire has lasted indefinitely.

The last vestiges of the British Empire are still lingering, but has definitely been on a downslide since the rise of the United States from WW1 to WW2.

The United States may as yet get stronger before it is supplanted by the next world superpower or it may already be on the verge of disintegrating... only time will tell.

 

I totally agree, not one empire has ever managed to last indefinitely. Perhaps this is even inherent in the very nature of civilisation that when one kind exerts itself too widely, it collapses for a variety of reasons. You allude to an interesting phenomenon happening with Britain, the British Empire is well and truly gone, yet the echo of the once mighty "pink map" empire ensures (as does the English language) that Britain is both remembered and respected on the world stage.

 

Just as ancient Greece and Rome lingered on and found new ways to survive, so is the case for Britain and America. What will end is not the Union of American States, but the political and trade leverage that this Union enjoys on the rest of the world that will end. It is true that America only achieved a global power status between world wars, in no small way thanks to the fact that America was geographically out of harms way and able to export food and goods while Europe bankrupted itself.

 

Ditto Second War. On through the Cold War and it was a two horse race between the USA and the USSR in terms of political influence around the world. It was expected that the USA would become the sole super power in the absence of the later, however the kind of influence that the USA has is subtle and subject to change as it does not invade countries (exceptions apply) rather securing agreements that work in her favour. With no force to back up these agreements is it any wonder that the developing world will strike deals with China, Russia, India, Venezuela and just about anywhere else that offers a competitive alternative.

 

It will be interesting to see how America reacts to a perception of loosing influence as the world shifts from a two horse race to a position where there is no real super power. I reckon that in twenty years time, it wont be clear at all who is the most powerful nation on Earth, eventually though, fear, greed and jealousy will rear its head and nations will seek to grab a clear lead before the "others" do it first. Cue arms race and probable Third World War, if anyone will benefit from such a war it would be the side that fights least and produces most if history is anything to go by.

[crl848 9]

Lessons from history: I was trying to explain to my 4 year old the other day, why Britain doesn't have a space programme but the US, Russia, China and India do. I told him that 100 years ago, we would have had one if it had been possible but not now, we are too poor.

[+Jug 99]

Lessons from history: I was trying to explain to my 4 year old the other day, why Britain doesn't have a space programme but the US, Russia, China and India do. I told him that 100 years ago, we would have had one if it had been possible but not now, we are too poor.

In my opinion, states that do not evolve are already in the first vestages of dissolution. That is what makes the election of Mr Obama such a milestone. The US of 2008 is a different kind of entity today then it was in 1964 when the equal opportunity was for some, not all. While we still have a way to go, our nation is improving for all the right reasons and I cannot think of a better manifestation of that positive growth than the election this year. I didn't vote for Mr Obama, but he is my President and Commander-in-Chief now. I can also appreciate the event as what it is in our history.

 

I set aside our current economic malaise as just another cyclical thing that is not truly a threat to our society, but, actually, another reason for us to draw together. It is what it is. We'll call the bums who have been involved in illegal doings in that sector to task too.

 

Imperialism is not our thing, despite claims in other sectors that it is. Our history, though short, proves that, eventually, when we feel that we have been accountable for our actions, we give everything back. Our self-assumed role as international policeman, however, is constantly in question and under fire here at home and that is a good thing.

 

There is a lot of proof that the US can be your best friend or your worst enemy, your choice. When we've a mind to, oh boy, can we fight. We have walked away from fights (Vietnam), but we have never lost one. We haven't done a particularly good job of deciding when to get into a fight, but, I think, we are learning from our experience.

 

No person on this planet, unless you are an American, understands in the least way what makes Americans so fiercely competitive and patriotic. We are prolific and loud in our own self-criticism and this is a good thing. However, try to castigate us from the outside (Hugo) or making assumptions based on that internal strife is a huge mistake. You will be faced with something you were not expecting at all. We can circle the wagons and take on all comers a whole lot faster and more effectively than anyone can imagine.

 

A democracy is what the people want and elect and, thereby, is in constant evolution to the needs of the electorate. Equal outcome is not the objective, equal opportunity is (so much for socialism). That is why we celebrate so much when the underdog wins. As long as the majority of the electorate insists on accountability, we will survive and end up stronger along the way. Everybody that governs in our society is a temp. We're not stuck with anybody for too long and can survive the bums no matter how bad they are. We, also, don't allow the princes enough time to turn into bums either.

 

So, by my measure, the US is doing fine and I guess that my final proof is that there is no shortage of good men and women who voluntarily stand in line for the right to place their lives in harm's way to protect this nation. As long as that condition exists, we must be doing something right, are not yet on the road to decline, and can still call ourselves worthy.

[Jeremiah Weed 0]

In my opinion, ......

 

Pretty much hit the nail on the head. Great post.

[+Dave 2,322]

f***e'n A Jug!

 

As my signature says,

 

You counted on America to be passive.....You counted wrong.

 

People can call us the evil empire etc.....but when you are on the wrong end of our spear, you really wish you weren't.

[Fubar512 1,350]

Well said, Jug.

[Lt. James Cater 62]

Well said Jug!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111

 

One thing i must add.

 

I give many thanks to Fidel Castro...

 

For giving me the opportunity to be born in the USA.

[lazboy 1]

Lessons from history: I was trying to explain to my 4 year old the other day, why Britain doesn't have a space programme but the US, Russia, China and India do. I told him that 100 years ago, we would have had one if it had been possible but not now, we are too poor.

 

We don't have a space programme because simply we don't need one, we have all the technological benefits without the vast expense, its not as though those countries that do have a space programme are any further out into space than they were 30 years ago and when was the last time a man from any country actually set foot on another planet, for all the expenditure on space programmes we are still stuck in orbit around this particular rock, for god sake hurry up and locate a stargate!

 

Lazboy

[Jeremiah Weed 0]

We don't have a space programme because simply we don't need one, we have all the technological benefits without the vast expense, its not as though those countries that do have a space programme are any further out into space than they were 30 years ago and when was the last time a man from any country actually set foot on another planet, for all the expenditure on space programmes we are still stuck in orbit around this particular rock, for god sake hurry up and locate a stargate!

 

Lazboy

 

Yeah, but you can find you exact location on the planet on your cell phone and get real time driving directions on it thanks to that expenditure.

 

You're welcome.

[eraser_tr 29]

hahahahaha! Ok, I can see massive unrest because of the economic downturn, but splitting? not in a million years.

 

The only end I can see of the US is integration into a larger political entity, like that NAU stuff....it worked out pretty well in Europe, but the EU countries were more of a level playing field to begin with. Canada and the US might be able to form a political and economic union, but Mexico needs to develop more before any realistic integration would be possible.

 

A little bit of trivia though: Many places in NYC are actually starting to accept the Euro as currency with the large ammount of tourism from Europe.

[JediMaster 451]

Space doesn't really cost that much if you have the will to spend it there.

For all the bellyaching about how much the US space program costs, we spend more on "continuing operations" in Iraq in one year than a decade of NASA budgets.

 

Investing in space makes a lot more sense than investing in a political process that's always one coup away from total reversal.

[Gr.Viper 131]

From B,B&F:

Bush (played by Bremner): You know, what's strange about the last couple of months? It's how we've seen Americans come toghether and unite over one thing. They all hate the bankers. You know, when you get the anti-capitalists with their slogans, their placards and their scruffy clothes agree with the super-capitalists who'd rather die than bail out the bankers, you kinda feel "Well, this is a nation of one."

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

I'm beginning to wonder about man's ability to live permanently in space. Maybe NASA and them know something, and they ain't talkin, and so they ain't in no rush.

 

NO the USA won't collapse as a "state" but economic collapse is always possible. Iceland is a good example of a "modern" or "first world" state undergoing fast collapse (and currency collapse) at the margin, where trends usually start.

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

A bit OffT but I had developed some thoughts on space back when I was programming a space simulator (for personal use only), trying to rationalize what I was doing.

 

The best environment may be something like Jupiter's larger icy moons. Under the surface, people would be protected from the killer particle radiation of Jupiter. Nuc powered heaters could easily grind tunnels very deep into the interior. With the very low gravity, the tunnels would not collapse so easily as on Earth, as long as the interior material is braced as it may be rather weak. But, the farther out into the Solar System, the more water ice becomes stronger, almost like steel perhaps. I can see spaceships (and buildings) mostly made of ice, mostly the hull, cruising in the outer solar system. Cammo painted as dark pure black as possible for combat, left bare ice finish or painted white for civil transport. Different planets/moons/asteroids/comets offer different sources for light "volatile" elements and heavy "metals." Endless stuff like that, all of it just a guess.

 

One of the funniest things I read was Joe Haldeman's description, in the novel Forever War, of oxygen storage on a tiny planetoid well beyond Pluto: A mound of oxygen ice piled up outside.

 

Actually, Ganymede has a good magnetic field that MIGHT be able to protect surface dwellers from Jupiter's particle radiation field, but that's a guess. Anyways the background cosmic ray danger would require a thick atmosphere like here on Earth, but a few space people have survived cosmic rays in low Earth orbit for at least one year.

[Jeremiah Weed 0]

NO the USA won't collapse as a "state" but economic collapse is always possible. Iceland is a good example of a "modern" or "first world" state undergoing fast collapse (and currency collapse) at the margin, where trends usually start.

 

Iceland is not comparable to the United States. I could go in to detail about this, but I'm sure you are smart enough to figure out why.

[+Jarhead1 27]

<br /><br /><br />

 

I got my AK, i'm down with ya. And a multitude of hunting rifles and shot guns. And i've been shooting stuff with them since the age of 7. Mix in some army time, i'm ready to rock..........if need be. :)

 

 

Got my dads M-60 from Nam i can through into the mix along with a buttload of other stuff he as gotten over the years, and ITS ALL LEGAL, lol, so lets GET SOME!! OORAHHH

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

Weed::

Iceland is not comparable to the United States. I could go in to detail about this, but I'm sure you are smart enough to figure out why.

Oh these two are quite different in many ways indeed, and very similar in others, primarily debt.

[Jeremiah Weed 0]

Weed::

Oh these two are quite different in many ways indeed, and very similar in others, primarily debt.

 

US debt and Iceland debt are also different. National debt isn't really as bad as one might think. I mean for instance, take a look at how much money other nations are in debt to the US for as opposed to how many nations are in debt to Iceland. There are a lot of other factors, the US is in no danger of economic collapse at this time, things were far worse in the late 70's. In a free market things like this always work themselves out, I mean it is already starting to.

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

US collapse at this time? No. Never said that. Actually, things do seem *alot* worse elsewhere.

 

Paul Volcker is now saying we face a greater problem than we did in the 70s. The top, including Volcker, pulled a rabbit out of the hat in the 70s, they may do so again. Or they may not. There is no "free market" going on at the levels these fellas play, in the tradition of Adam Smith, and hasn't been for some time.

[eraser_tr 29]

Never quite has been unfortunately. We actually face a greater problem than in the 30s. At least then we had money to use government spending to fuel recovery, and we produced far more than we imported.

[themightysrc 5]

It's also worth remembering that the dollar has been the fiat reserve currency of the world for yonks. That's why other countries have been happy to support it by buying for so long, particularly where it's the fiat oil dealing currency.

 

If China (for example) flogged off its dollars (although it would be a bit bonkers to do so), then that would be seriously bad news for the dollar, and, by implication, the American economy.

 

Still, given the current travails of the American economy, there are plenty of other reasons for Americans to worry somewhat. I don't think that the USA 'breaking up' is one of them, and I hope that Barack Obama will be able to turn around an economic decline that was as inevitable as it was a shock to the world markets.