"War on the Strait"

[macelena 1,070]

I´m thinking of a Mod based on defending the Iberian Peninsula from an attack by Warsaw Pact or an Islamic Coalition. I

would like to release as many aircraft for both sides for different ages, from 1950s to present day.

 

By now i´m just thinking of using Spanish and Portuguese Air Forces defending, would it be better using the TJ birds, i.e?

 

Is any Terrain available? (heard of a Spainsh Civil War Mod, there is Canary Islands also...)

 

If you modded any feature that i could get into it, please, tell me if you would like for it to be included or not

Edited May 29, 2009 by macelena

[+Gunrunner 314]

Warsaw Pact seems unlikely...

 

In a WW3 scenario, IF WP forces decided to extend their forces toward the iberic peninsula, it would mean that a) Germany and France fell, b) Norway fell, c) Iceland, Ireland and the United Kingdom fell, thus leaving very few possibilities of counter-attack on the North Atlantic front and allowing ground forces to move forward, only leaving reserve and garrison troups behind as occupation forces.

In such a scenario Spain and Portugal would already have had forces fighting in Germany and France once the severity of the situation was realised.

Meaning that once you'll start your campaign, you'd be facing a formidable opponent (far more than historically, otherwise it wouldn't have been able to meet the requirements), with your already crippled forces (the losses in defense of Germany/France) and little support from anyone else (The US would have suffered tremendous losses in defense of the GIUK gap, Norway, Germany, France and England, the North Atlantic would be mostly in Soviet hands, and help from the Mediterranean would be sparse (maybe from Italy/Greece/Turkey/Israel if they're still in the game, but with the Atlantic lost, the only "safe" ressuply route would be through a long detour and the quite vulnerable Suez Canal)).

It would be a fight for a glorious death, as if it comes to that, you'd have no chance to win.

 

You could also envision an invasion from the Mediterranean rather than through the Pyrenees, which would mean a complete domination over the Mediterranean by the Soviets, meaning the partial downfall of at least Italy, Greece, France and Turkey.

The Black Sea Fleet never was in a position to accomplish such a feat, and never had enough transport and assault capacity to mount an invasion of the iberic peninsula.

The Soviet goal in such a scenario would be to deny complete control of the Mediterranean to NATO forces, "secure" the Suez route and protect the Black Sea.

Now, let's say they didn't disable Italy etc...

Their fleet would be too vulnerable to mount any serious invasion.

Then let's consider that the invasion is mostly a diversion, an attempt to mobilize NATO forces far away from Germany and buy time by opening a new front, even though the chances of succes are slim.

In that case it makes much more sense to try that in Turkey or better Italy, as it ends up being easier to secure and offer better strategic advantages in case of success, prompting a more serious reaction from NATO and thus acting as a better diversion.

 

Nope, sorry, as interesting as it might be, without a large dose of suspension of disbelief I can't see it working with the Soviets...

Edited February 11, 2009 by Gunrunner

[macelena 1,070]

Well, this scenario of the soviet attack was considered as quite probale by NATO, and the use of the Iberian peninsula as sanctuary

to restablish a line of defense in the Pyrenees, then counter-attack. This scenario is not the one i would like the most, as it implicates

that half Europe has been overrun, and France would be a "Red Zone".

 

But the attack from Africa would be in the form of a medium intensity conflict, not a mayor attack by warsaw pact, is the one in wich

i would work. It´s meant to be something like the classic middle eastern conflict, in the west of the Mediterranean Sea, with north african

forces backed by th eastern block.

[+Gunrunner 314]

I know it was considered, NATO's job was to consider all options and scenarios to be prepared for whatever might happen, all I'm saying is that 1) it's based on an over-estimation of Soviet capabilities and 2) if happening, the game's already over unless Soviet forces are stretched too thin, in which case salvation would only come from uprisings.

 

In all cases Spain would be swamped with refugees, making any military operation that much more difficult.

 

Also, keep in mind that if that scenario was judged that serious and there was a real hope in using the iberic peninsula as a beachhead back into Europe, NATO and the US would have helped military build up of Spain and Portugal far more than they historically did during the Cold War.

 

It was mostly a plan C, in case all else failed (I'm not saying that Spain was unimportant, had little strategic value or fighting capacity, only that due to geography, if the fight came on Spanish soil, the chances of winning were slim).

 

Quite frankly I doubt France in such a scenario would have lasted long, the whole European WW3 scenario was really a hit or miss thing, with NATO putting all it got on Germany for the first three weeks of war, hoping to establish supply lines in the Atlantic, failing that the fight was over and the countries behind Germany would fall fase, and even if the North Atlantic battle was won, it would come down to a war of attrition with numbers in favor of the Soviets, but morale, training, equipment in favor of NATO, the only winning strategy for NATO then being to cripple the Soviets' supply lines and forcing them to peace talks (if you decide to completely exclude the nuclear option).

 

 

Now, with the Soviets stopping at the Pyrenees for whatever reason, letting NATO rescapees regroup in Spain, supplies and US troops flow in (meaning the Soviet Navy would not do its job), then it might happen, but I can't think of a reason for the Soviets not to push their advantage if they managed to get that far.

 

North African countries "reclaiming" the south of Spain, while a little strange, actually offers something better balanced, and might fit into a WW3 scenario, the move being a diversion for the Soviets.

The Iberic Peninsula being the recompense offered by the Soviets for not helping NATO resupply.

[macelena 1,070]

North African countries "reclaiming" the south of Spain, while a little strange, actually offers something better balanced, and might fit into a WW3 scenario, the move being a diversion for the Soviets.

The Iberic Peninsula being the recompense offered by the Soviets for not helping NATO resupply.

 

 

Kind of. But i don´t mean WWIII, just an average intensity conflict.

 

 

About technical issues, anybody would have anything to say related to the Mod, apart of the background, in

the event that there was some ideas?

[Stratos 3,191]

Macelena chico, el A-Team tiene un mapa de España usado para la guerra civil española, podrias pedirle ayuda a Wrench en transformarlo a moderno. En casi todos los escenarios de la WW3 podrias usar Marruecos y Algeria contra España, como ha dicho Gunrunner, los magrabíes podrian pasarse a los sovieticos sin pestañear y atacar España. Desbaratando así una area vital de la OTAN para recibir y preparar suministros

[macelena 1,070]

Macelena chico, el A-Team tiene un mapa de España usado para la guerra civil española, podrias pedirle ayuda a Wrench en transformarlo a moderno. En casi todos los escenarios de la WW3 podrias usar Marruecos y Algeria contra España, como ha dicho Gunrunner, los magrabíes podrian pasarse a los sovieticos sin pestañear y atacar España. Desbaratando así una area vital de la OTAN para recibir y preparar suministros

 

Macelena boy, the A-Team has used a map of Spain to the Spanish Civil War, you could ask for help to transform it into a modern to Wrench. In almost all scenarios of WW3 could use Morocco and Algeria vs. Spain, as Gunrunner said , the Mughrabis could switch to the Soviets without blinking and attack Spain. Disrupting a vital area of NATO and prepare to receive supplies

 

 

Is that terrain Payware? Does it cover Northern Africa ? In any case, a lot of issues should be modded, such as frontlines, convoys for armed recon,

and airbases in both sides of the Strait. I will ask Wrench

 

¿Es de pago?¿Incluye el norte de Africa? Tendría que ser muy modificado, las bases aéreas, el frente, y todo eso. Ya le preguntare a wrench

Por cierto, ¿Tu no jugabas con un Dédalo en WOV? Lo necesitaríamos

[Silverbolt 104]

nope, isn't payware

[macelena 1,070]

nope, isn't payware

 

 

You give me nothing but good news

[+Typhoid 231]

Macelena chico, el A-Team tiene un mapa de España usado para la guerra civil española, podrias pedirle ayuda a Wrench en transformarlo a moderno. En casi todos los escenarios de la WW3 podrias usar Marruecos y Algeria contra España, como ha dicho Gunrunner, los magrabíes podrian pasarse a los sovieticos sin pestañear y atacar España. Desbaratando así una area vital de la OTAN para recibir y preparar suministros

 

 

what he said!

 

its a pretty good terrain.

[+Gepard 11,295]

A WW3 scenario on iberian penisula is not as far from possibilities as some may think.

Gunrunner means the west would have had the superiority in morale, training and equipment. Sorry, but i doubt.

With own eyewitness i can compare east and westgerman military and to be honest i can hardly see a western superiority (exeption the navy). On the ground and in the air and in the capability of the average soldier the west germans were inferior to their eastern counterparts. The Leopard 2 panzer was the only device the NVA was unable to counter, but in comparision of the rest ....

With this in mind i can say a WW3 scenario at the iberian penisula, why not!

[+Gunrunner 314]

Gepard, of course the training and morale of some WP countries and units were above the average NATO units...

Unfortunately they didn't constitute a majority...

You also forget that East Germany was an exception in the WP, being always among the first to get the latest hardware, with little or no downgrade compared to the Russian version, they trained more and got spare parts more easily than most other WP countries.

 

For the Air Forces, the training regimen of NATO forces was far superior quantitatively to anything the WP had and qualitatively to almost all except part of the Russian and East German air forces.

But doctrine plays a part too, and the Soviet one concerning the air forces was less efficient than NATO's, underusing assets, which coupled with maintenance and availability problems would mean a sortie rate far inferior to standard NATO forces.

 

You also have to take into account that the West Germans would have been fighting for their own land, their families, and while in peace time it doesn't affect morale, in wartime it does, just as morale does decline when you start losing half your unit just to invade some land for which you have little interest yourself and you are the agressor (of course political ideals are to be taken into account but you know more than me how it affected East Germany).

 

My comment and disbelief wasn't meant to be demeaning to the men, only to the structure they served.

Edited February 11, 2009 by Gunrunner

[macelena 1,070]

I didn´t mean to discuss the possibility of NATO forces to be overrun to the Pyrenees, wich i think

could have happened. About doctrine, i don´t think that Tornado tactics proved that good in Desert Storm, and

the non-export version fighters of the WP proved abl to get Air superiority when western officers tried them in 1990,

together with a better estructure than NATO has ever faced, would have made things diferent

 

What i meant was to discuss the possibilities of making this mod, any interesting suggestion, and if

wants to, contribute to its development.

 

BTW, gepard,given that it is your specialty, what do you think about the Terrain issue?

[Wrench 9,847]

The SCW terrain is a good starting point. But since it's a 1930s terrain, it'd require EXTENSIVE rebuilding, in both the targetization and retiling, as the regions around the airbases are much too small for "modern" jet aircraft airbases.

ie: they all use Runway3, which is the small dirt strip. A superb terrain, nonetheless, but limited in temporal scope.

 

At minimum, Runway1 is required for most jets, and you'd need at least 1 Runway4 (on each side) for any aircraft that are set to use the "Large" runway type. Also, where would the Red Force be based???

 

All in all, for a modern scenario, it'd be far better to simply start fresh, building the region from a new DEM. Covering the Iberian Penninsula and North Africa; that should give space enough for Red Air operations out of Morrocco.

Think of the historical Islamic movements across North Africa 800-1000 years ago, the Moorish invasions, etc. That would be a more likely scenario than a Soviet/NATO face off. Given the "What If..." world...

 

Wrench

kevin stein

[macelena 1,070]

The SCW terrain is a good starting point. But since it's a 1930s terrain, it'd require EXTENSIVE rebuilding, in both the targetization and retiling, as the regions around the airbases are much too small for "modern" jet aircraft airbases.

ie: they all use Runway3, which is the small dirt strip. A superb terrain, nonetheless, but limited in temporal scope.

 

At minimum, Runway1 is required for most jets, and you'd need at least 1 Runway4 (on each side) for any aircraft that are set to use the "Large" runway type. Also, where would the Red Force be based???

 

All in all, for a modern scenario, it'd be far better to simply start fresh, building the region from a new DEM. Covering the Iberian Penninsula and North Africa; that should give space enough for Red Air operations out of Morrocco.

Think of the historical Islamic movements across North Africa 800-1000 years ago, the Moorish invasions, etc. That would be a more likely scenario than a Soviet/NATO face off. Given the "What If..." world...

 

Wrench

kevin stein

 

 

Then, should it be an entirely new work on the Terrain? There is nothing to start from? Is it possible to extend a Terrain further than its original limits?

 

Then, would you be able to build a Terrain from the Canary Islands to Zaragoza (quite north)? In such event, could you use your work in Canary Islands and some from the A-Team?

 

 

Btw, Would you mind your Sabre to be included in the mod?

Edited February 11, 2009 by macelena

[Wrench 9,847]

The EDF Sabre was released as freeware, with our Spanish friends in mind

 

I, myself, don't know of a way to expand an already built terrain -- there MAY be a way, but I don't know it (would have loved to do so for Crusader's Canary Islands map).

 

Nor is there a way to combine 2 terrains ... again, one needs to go back and import a new DEM for the region, essentially starting from scratch. I've actually looked at this, when working on the Canary's. But I can guarantee it'll create the same problems I've been running into on the Hawaii map -- the object scaling issue. Given a 1000 by 1000 km map, one would be VERY lucky to be able to add Teneifre airport ... the runway may be of equal size to the island itself.

 

No, it has to be created from scratch. And ALL that that entails.... and belive me, it can be nightmarish at times.

 

Wrench

kevin stein

 

*DEM is Digital Elevation Map, avalible from the USGS ... they're very cool in their own right to look at!

[macelena 1,070]

Well, as the terrain issue has to be solved, there is

something i would like to talk about. There were some foreign

air units in the area: Zaragoza AFB once house USAF F-102,

and Torrejon AFB was base for F-100D, F-4C/D/E and F-16A/B/C/D,

meanwhile, RAF used to have something in Gibraltar, Jaguars, IIRC.

 

What do you think, sould they be included in the campaign if

the Mod finally goes out?

[+Gepard 11,295]

The idea of a arab vs european clash would also be a good one. A "united arab kalifat" tries to reconquer Spain. Perhaps armed with chinese planes. Would be nice to see the J-10 in action over Gibraltar.

[macelena 1,070]

The idea of a arab vs european clash would also be a good one. A "united arab kalifat" tries to reconquer Spain. Perhaps armed with chinese planes. Would be nice to see the J-10 in action over Gibraltar.

 

 

Well, the aircraft in wich i thought for Arabs is Su-30MKA, in service with Algerian Air Force,

but as we speak about a new country, J-10s vs. EF2000 would be awesome

 

Btw, i made a few missions in wich Sicily was under siege, and F-4C (SPA), F-104S(ITA), and Mirage F-1 (FRA) defended it.

It could be interesting as an air defence Campaign, but there should be some CAS missions around a ground battle at , i.e. Ceuta and Melilla,

Edited February 15, 2009 by macelena

[+ojcar 157]

Macelena maybe you can make a new campaign about a what if version of the Sidi Ifni War, with a great Moroccan offensive against the Spanish Sahara and Canary Islands. I like more the older planes and this scenery is less hypothetical.

[+Piecemeal 450]

North African countries "reclaiming" the south of Spain, while a little strange, actually offers something better balanced, and might fit into a WW3 scenario, the move being a diversion for the Soviets.

The Iberic Peninsula being the recompense offered by the Soviets for not helping NATO resupply.

 

 

Wasn't Spain an Islamic stronghold during the Middle Ages? I was watching a documentary recently about that on YouTube. If you could create a mad enough dictatorship in north west Africa you could surely put together an invasion scenario (similar to Galtieri invading the 'Islas Malvinas'|). Reclaiming what was once a land of Islam, in a sense turning it into a Holy War - Islamic vs. Chrisitian. I suppose you could throw in a token squadron of Israeli F-15s/F-16s, who'd only be too glad to get any excuse to kick some arab arse. Just a thought

[+Piecemeal 450]

On the subject of terrains, wouldn't the Madagascar tiles make a great tapestry for Spain?

 

 

[Wrench 9,847]

Well, I've actually given up trying to figure this out, but I managed to get this (screenie below) The region I wanted.

 

But the damn TE will absolutely NOT tile the thing.... there's no water showing up anywhere. I have absolutely NO idea WTF is going on.

 

Wrench

kevin stein

[macelena 1,070]

@ojcar: I´ll try on the original Strike Fighters. It´s not the first time this has been suggested and

it´s rather do-able

 

@Ultramax: Those screenies seem to fit in some aspects. If it is going into a new Mod, i think

that we should get an Ad Hoc terrain, but i made some trials on Norway, Lybia, etc. The one wich fits

better by the look to southern Spain are the fields in Desert Terrain, with mountains forested like Norway

 

@ Wrench: If i weren´t a boy... That´s precious Thanks a lot. Don´t forget to get my home in.

About airbases, Portuguese boys say that they wan´t to appear, please remember Lajes and Monte Real AFBs.

Didn´t you have the same trouble with the water of a fictional scenery?

Edited February 15, 2009 by macelena

[Wrench 9,847]

 

Unfortuantely, the damn thing DON'T work!!!! I've gone over all the "water" zones in PhotoShop, making sure it's all blue, and it simply won't tile (using the desert set, plus a bunch of new tiles I created for the ASW (ie-Texas) rebuild

 

I'll be more than happy to pass the bmp along to someone that can build a TFD/HFD ... it either gives me a blank screen, all land or crashes. I have no ideas whats going on.

 

btw to Lexx ... yes, latest TE (4/06) and still can't get it to see 2 DEMs, even with both residing in the Iberia folder in the TE

 

WRench

kevin stein