Is the MF MiG-29A a Sparrow Magnet?

[+NeverEnough 78]

I just love the beautifully executed cockpit and model, but I seem to only enjoy them for a brief period before a Phantom shoots me in the face with a Sparrow! These beauties attract AIM-7's like a trailer park attracts twisters. I get a missile launch warning, and start popping flares and chaff about every five seconds. By the time I lock up the Phantom and fire off an R-27A, boom....

 

Were the MiG-29A's Phantom Fodder, or is the Blue side on steriods?

[Stick 773]

The Fulcrum may look fantastic but it has a dismal history.

[+Gunrunner 314]

One may argue it also may be because the only Fulcrum seeing any action were "monkey-models" sometimes poorly maintained and in the hand of poorly trained pilots.

 

The Indians and Germans (while they had them) seemed to have liked the machine.

In Russian service its main problem seems to have been the lack of funding for proper maintenance.

Poland seems not too displeased with the type either.

 

You also have to take into account the original purpose of the plane, in PVO service it was meant as a point defense interceptor, while in VVS seervice it was supposed to clear the skies over battlefields, not acquire air superiority or operate in overly hostile skies.

It seems that by that point, the real job of theater air superiority was passed on to SAMs, planes only being used for local actions or HVT.

 

As Lindr2 pointed out, the original Fulcrum were not even equipped with AHM (after upgrades and for export customers though it ended otherwise).

 

You'll also note it's the exact same problem with most red birds... far easier to take out at long range than blue birds, yet, once it gets to a gun fight, their maneuverability makes them usually harder opponents than blue birds, the MiG-29 is no exception it seems.

[+kreelin 2]

I just love the beautifully executed cockpit and model, but I seem to only enjoy them for a brief period before a Phantom shoots me in the face with a Sparrow! These beauties attract AIM-7's like a trailer park attracts twisters. I get a missile launch warning, and start popping flares and chaff about every five seconds. By the time I lock up the Phantom and fire off an R-27A, boom....

 

Were the MiG-29A's Phantom Fodder, or is the Blue side on steriods?

 

Well what kind of ROE do you use ? You need different tactics when you fly red birds. AI Phantoms and their AIM-7s are very good in BVR so you have to be accurate in your missile avoidance process

[crl848 9]

Well what kind of ROE do you use ? You need different tactics when you fly red birds. AI Phantoms and their AIM-7s are very good in BVR so you have to be accurate in your missile avoidance process

 

Any tips gratefully received.

[Icarus999 70]

I just love the beautifully executed cockpit and model, but I seem to only enjoy them for a brief period before a Phantom shoots me in the face with a Sparrow! These beauties attract AIM-7's like a trailer park attracts twisters. I get a missile launch warning, and start popping flares and chaff about every five seconds. By the time I lock up the Phantom and fire off an R-27A, boom....

 

Were the MiG-29A's Phantom Fodder, or is the Blue side on steriods?

 

The phantom was and is( in its upgraded form) one hell of an interceptor... Bvr is its game. That said i can testify to the flip side of that coin because modern Russian missiles have longer ranges than their American counterparts. I get lit up at insane distances, especially with the AA-8 Amos and AA-10/ R-27 Alamo I have both the community weapons pack and a merged bunyap + pack in different installs ... let me assure you the Russian BVR stuff is quite deadly. Ive had late model mig 23's open up on me at 30 miles out and wipe out half my flight by the time I was able to break radar lock and go on the offensive.

Remember if you get the phantom in a knife range dogfight and he trys to turn with you... you hold all the card's.

[kukulino 1]

I just love the beautifully executed cockpit and model, but I seem to only enjoy them for a brief period before a Phantom shoots me in the face with a Sparrow! These beauties attract AIM-7's like a trailer park attracts twisters. I get a missile launch warning, and start popping flares and chaff about every five seconds. By the time I lock up the Phantom and fire off an R-27A, boom....

 

Were the MiG-29A's Phantom Fodder, or is the Blue side on steriods?

Well...

 

We get one of the brilliants in SFP1 world. I love this new beauty. But it is still destroyable. There were many flame discussions about missiles effectivness here and on TW forums. Big step forward are new soviet missiles and weapons models by krizis, lindr2, ravenclaw. We can now fly red side on qaualitative MUCH better level than anytime before.

 

But...

We have here topic about hardest oponent in the air (or something like that). I did not wrote reply there, but as I can see your question, I can answer. Everything with newer Sparrows and newer Sidewinders under wings is hard oponent for everything red. This mean that Phantom with few AIM-9L or M and with later AIM-7 with their modelled datas is strong oponent (Phantoms FM is not winner, its missiles are winners). I have read some those flame wars and replys in this sence "sim was primary builded for Nato fans and western plane fans (- what is supposed to be right). Plus if you need fun, you can not modell for some not very successfull missiles too realistic characteristics (mean eight missed from ten lauched ), becouse it is not very fun. Western plane fans criticize LOCK ON missiles characteristics And we sometimes criticize SFP1 world for its standard ingame western missiles characteristiques It is neverendig story.

 

Plus... No ECM was installed on early export Mig-29As. As far as I know we in exCechoslovakia had no ECMs, so ingame (and in rea life) it is not very good for pilot But you can try Mig-29C (dunno now which izdelye it is) and there is ECM onboard. If you will in close dogfight... I believe you can shooot (with all new Mig-29 versions made by TMF) everything ingame what is close to your nose

 

As kreelin pointed, if I want fly Migs, I need different tactics. This suppose know my own plane.

 

 

When I fly western planes, I have ussually no problem survive. But if I want fly Mig-21s, Mig-23s I need wait for problems. Mig-21/23s (not all Mig-23 of course) was not equiped with ECM and faffs/chlares in fighter configuration. So it is normal that you are looking for troubles if sits in them (same for some Phantoms for example). Mig-29 with or without ECM is big step forward on fighters field (ingame and in RL too), and I will newer change it to any western plane ingame

 

 

So...

Sparrows vs Mig-29... It is poit of view - we want as much as possible real simulator, but we want fun too. And fun is primary. It is not so fun fly Migs against western planes in WOE (in comparation to oposite side), but this is not reason quits. Now we have damn good add on and NO (UBER or NOT UBER) LIMA OR MIKE OR WHATEWER ELSE CAN DECLINE MY FEELING IN NEW PERFECT MIG-29 ADD ON And TMF Mig-29 is same magnet for Sparrows like great Su-27 by Marcfighter or Erwin_Hans I think

 

 

OK, now you can start shoot on me with missiles statistics from real life, killed migs statistics, and other ussual "look on or compare" and similar things about which I need to know that they are absolutely really real We want fun and we know it. And we do all we can to have fun in SFP1 world. We can see it, cos we have tons of WIPs in pipe for both sides

Edited March 13, 2009 by kukulino

[+76.IAP-Blackbird 3,557]

For me the tactics in later scenarios are the same for blue and red side... flying low to the enemy.. when arrived .. flying lower.. pop up, lock on, shoot and going down..

[+kreelin 2]

OK, now you can start shoot on me with missiles statistics from real life, killed migs statistics, and other ussual "look on or compare" and similar things about which I need to know that they are absolutely really real ...

 

Well unfortunately how can we make it differently in simulator (or game) context ?

We know all that what we have on paper, whatever it is (weapons, cars, hightec stuff...) is always different when you use it in reality

TK chose to use statistics and why not... Unlike for LOCK ON, we can always change the data if we don't like it

 

I like flying reds because of the challenge. :yes:

[+76.IAP-Blackbird 3,557]

I like flying reds because of the challenge. :yes:

[+Dave 2,322]

In case you didn't know but Migs in general have all been missile magnets. Why else would the USAF be called the largest distributer of Mig parts in the world.

[+Brain32 265]

AI's missiles do not obey same rules as players, keep that in mind, I experimented A LOT with it. My Russian missiles are not dead weight, vanilla R-27 is about as good as 7F while later versions(mainly 27ER) I've set up on par with 7M as they really were upgraded a lot.

Also no Russian Alamo was ever fired in anger IIRC, downgraded export versions were so comments about that are dubious at best same as about the planes as that is the Russian export policy.

 

However all that is futile anyway when AI can fly more or less strait poping decoys I call "Burning B-52's Mk1" and easily fool the same missile I can't avoid doing 12-14G manouver trailing a wall of decoys.

 

All in all Blackbirds advice is the best and in my install valid for all planes, as soon as you get tracking sound from your RWR, dive to the deck wait for it, pop out, fire your stuff and run like there's no tommorow ;)

[+Dave 2,322]

All in all Blackbirds advice is the best and in my install valid for all planes, as soon as you get tracking sound from your RWR, dive to the deck wait for it, pop out, fire your stuff and run like there's no tommorow ;)

 

That is good advice and it does work. I only fly the Mig-29 when it comes to Russian birds and its a challenge. Its a different mind set of flying but I still get the job done against Ukranian SU-27's.

[Baltazar 0]

Here are some tips:

 

1. Don't use Alt+N, it will just get you to the "no escape zone" in sec. If you are in a hurry use Alt+T...

 

2. Engage on the outer range of the AIM-7. When they fire, hit chaff, make a 180* degree turn (Split-S recommended) and hit the Afterburner.

MiG-29's power-to-weight and ability to sustain speed in the turn will allow you escape out the range of almost any missile including AIM-120 with ease.

 

3. If flying the MiG-29C use the Jammer only once they fire the missile and use it for a short time (5-10 sec), if you brake the lock you are home free!

 

4.Use TWS to keep the situational awareness at all time, pick a target wisely and switch to STT only when you are in the range of the R-27r

 

5. Don't rush in!!! Don't be in a hurry to lunch your missiles, you will be in a much better position later when they use up their BVR's and you

can use yours at will

 

4. And the most important, Pick a place and pick a fight! odds of 4+ to 1 are never going to get you home!

 

Hope this tips help.....

 

TMF MiG-29 ROCKS!!!!!!

[kukulino 1]

Thanx for good tips :yes:

 

Espetially that first I had in my mind for long time.

[Slartibartfast 153]

I have noticed that when going Mig-29 to Mig-29 it gets interesting fast... My usual methods are to stay low and choose when to engage. With the 29 I generally like to get in as close as I can to negate BVR missile's and to maximise my jets abilities over the enemy...

 

Learn your strengths and learn your weakness and then learn your opponents abilities and weakness's and then play on your strengths and your opponents weakness's

 

E.g.

Mig-29

Strengths Close in Combat

Weakness BVR

 

F-4

Strengths BVR

Weaknes Close in Combat

 

I know the above is very very simplified. But I have taken a flight of F-14's with a Mig-29A while I was on a single ship recon. Purely by getting in close (saying that 1 F-14 was a blue on blue...). I stayed low and kept my speed up and then took the offensive once in Archer range and then closed to the knife fight in the phone box and I didnt get hit by either a Phoenix Sparrow or Winder they got close but not quite... Only I didnt get home as I ran out of fuel. Forgot that one Mig-29 weakness fuel load.

 

But no matter what your opponent is flying within reason to what your driving but dont expect to win everytime with a Mig-21 against a F-22 sometimes though you might... but that comes down to luck

[+76.IAP-Blackbird 3,557]

How often pilots use AB in RL?! I don`t use them so often in a dogfight, only when I have to run. So don`t have probs with fuel...

[+kreelin 2]

... Only I didnt get home as I ran out of fuel. Forgot that one Mig-29 weakness fuel load.

 

 

Yes you really need to have always an eye on fuel gauge with this bird.

 

During the FM building process, I flew a lot of generated missions to see how the game engine uses the 29. I figured out that you only have 10mins of hot actions if you want to be sure to have enough fuel to RTB. Of course it's a "mean"...

Edited March 13, 2009 by kreelin

[Fubar512 1,350]

My strategy for fighting in the MiG-29:

 

The AIM-7's most common weakness is its inability to maintain lock on a target that's close to the ground. I exploit this weakness by approaching a formation of F-4s or F-15s at tree top level. They're usually maintaining one to two thousand feet of altitude while searching for me, and often make themselves tempting targets for a long-range Alamo shot, yet they cannot hit me with their Sparrows.

 

Once you merge with them, though, it's only a matter of time before you get toasted by a '9 Lima or Mike, both of which have more than twice the effective range of your Aphids.

[zmatt 2]

One may argue it also may be because the only Fulcrum seeing any action were "monkey-models" sometimes poorly maintained and in the hand of poorly trained pilots.

 

The Indians and Germans (while they had them) seemed to have liked the machine.

In Russian service its main problem seems to have been the lack of funding for proper maintenance.

Poland seems not too displeased with the type either.

 

You also have to take into account the original purpose of the plane, in PVO service it was meant as a point defense interceptor, while in VVS seervice it was supposed to clear the skies over battlefields, not acquire air superiority or operate in overly hostile skies.

It seems that by that point, the real job of theater air superiority was passed on to SAMs, planes only being used for local actions or HVT.

 

As Lindr2 pointed out, the original Fulcrum were not even equipped with AHM (after upgrades and for export customers though it ended otherwise).

 

You'll also note it's the exact same problem with most red birds... far easier to take out at long range than blue birds, yet, once it gets to a gun fight, their maneuverability makes them usually harder opponents than blue birds, the MiG-29 is no exception it seems.

 

 

I agree with all of that except the maneuverability. I can't speak for a real Fulcrum but the MF one flies like a brick. Knowing their work I would assume its accurate. High speed maneuvers in the Fulcrum are a lesson in bad aerodynamics. The thing has worse yaw in turnign than a phantom and high speed loops and dives are suicide. You have to kill the engine and hit the breaks to get reasonable turns. Luckily the gun is powerful and one shot normally does it, and after I upgraded my red weapons to more realistic specs it waas fareing much better. But in a dogfight I think the Blue contemporaries would eatyit alive. The Flanker is far more manuverable.

[+NeverEnough 78]

"Well what kind of ROE do you use ? You need different tactics when you fly red birds. AI Phantoms and their AIM-7s are very good in BVR so you have to be accurate in your missile avoidance process"

 

Hey Kreelin, thanks for all your outstanding work on bringing this bird to life for us. I have had a weakness for the Fulcrum since I first saw the pictures of the surprise visit to Finland in Aviation Weekly.

 

I was flying Fighter Sweep missions in WOE using the Soviet MiG-29A in 1984, since I thought the earlier time frame was more survivable. The missions start at altitude, and usually get a contact warning within about one minute of starting. Skill level and enemy activity was set at normal. Initial contact usually has the Phantoms at about 1 o'clock and approximately 30 miles out. As soon as I get a missile launch warning, I start popping flares and chafe at about three to five second intervals and initiate violent changes in direction and altitude. Usually I get a death rattle call from my wingman, followed immediately thereafter by a high explosive and high velocity enema...

 

What do I need to do tactically to be able to return safely into the welcoming embrace of my beloved Olga?

[+kreelin 2]

... The missions start at altitude, and usually get a contact warning within about one minute of starting. ...

 

That's the problem.... You won't have time to prepare your tactics in such condition .

[Fubar512 1,350]

That's the problem.... You won't have time to prepare your tactics in such condition .

 

Start on the ground, or the air (which places near your home base), not "near target", where you'll automatically find yourself at a disadvantage. Stay low, follow the cues from your controller, adjust your heading, and stay within 300 meters of the ground. Watch your radar warning receiver, That will tell you in which directions your threats lay. Learn to use the radar. When you ID the targets and their position, go as low as possible and order your wingmen to stay in formation. Acquire a target, and order your wingman to attack it. Pick the next target, launch an Alamo (AA-10/R-27) at it, and just maintain enough altitude to maintain lock until the missile either hits it or misses it. Remember to stay low. If you're not low enough to find yourself in danger of hitting treetops, you're too high.

[Bulldog 0]

Some great tips in this thread, if they're not already part of the tactics thread in the KB, they should be.

[+76.IAP-Blackbird 3,557]

What I realy miss in the TK series is the possibility to move the radar around, so you can fly on the deck and still scan the sky infront and above you... like in lomac.. this feauture is realy needed