HItR original AI

[Creaghorn 10]

i'm not talking about anybody beeing a crappy pilot. just pointing out that for some it's maybe more suiting because it's easier to survive because simply nobody is really attacking you.

i always said that i prefer rather campaigns with 300 hours and 3 kills than 5 hours with 20 kills.

as i said. a combination would be perfect. an AI who is aggressive as before, but also stays high. if you put away the yoyoing, then the simmer kills would decrease 90%. and that would be cool. additionally the AI as before, with knowing when to run.

when there was a fight, they fought fiercly. they were not joyriding. but it ended after some minutes because it was so fiercly and because of different reasons and the fighters seperated again with one or none losses.

the "one side wiped out" syndrome has nothing to do with this old or new AI. that's a different story.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

But isn't the AI behavior also related with the AI level? We should expect a more aggressive behavior from a veteran than a rookie.

 

Yep. Another thing that would be nice is a greater range of behavior between rookies and aces. Right now, I get the sense that there is little or no distinction between rookie and ace. Can OBD increase that without making the rookies fly like a twit and the aces fly like Einstein wrapped inside a combination of MvR and R. Fonck?

 

Another problem I just thought of is that I think someone at OBD said they can't program individual differences in AI pilot experience within a flight. IOW, in any given AI flight, either everyone in the flight is an ace or everyone is a rookie--no mixture of experience levels in a single flight. Is that true, OBD? If so, can that be changed, similar to the way you managed to give the player a personalized skin? That would be great, if doable!

 

Thanks, ZZ!

Edited December 16, 2009 by Herr Prop-Wasche

[themightysrc 5]

"i always said that i prefer rather campaigns with 300 hours and 3 kills than 5 hours with 20 kills."

 

Well, the pre-HitR AI precludes that. That's the problem.

 

"the "one side wiped out" syndrome has nothing to do with this old or new AI. that's a different story."

 

You really think so? I suggest that you read back some of the previous threads on here. You'll find plenty of references to complete wipeouts of opposing aircraft, and not a few references to all one's wingmen being shot down and leaving the player as the sole survivor (but not for long).

 

How 'realistic' is that?

[Creaghorn 10]

it precludes it in the new AI the same as in the old, because they were different reasons.

mainly because AI doesn't retreat. in neither AI.

reason for wrapping up many kills is also no sense of retreat and yoyoing. without it there would be less kills. other reasons have been no wind buffeting and easy visual impact indicators from distance, which i eliminated for me and anybody who like the tweak. other reason are sitting duck two seaters.

 

pre HITR AI who stay high (no yoyoing) and who have a sense for intelligent retreat, and this AI used for two seaters, including buffeting as we have now and no bulletimpact effects visible from the distance, would be IMHO the perfect combination of having fewer kills and the need to really fight, but nonetheless having a chance of survival because there wouldn't be alwasy one side wiped out.

 

 

[DukeIronHand 8]

I've added my two cents here on the, apparently, different AI. Not bad - just different!

 

Others have commented on how it's changed but...

 

upon further thought didn't one of the Devs say in another thread that the AI itself wasn't touched in HitR or did I misunderstand his comment?

 

If so then what is causing the appearance of different AI behavior? Some FM change?

Edited December 16, 2009 by DukeIronHand

[Siggi 10]

Is it possible there is a variation in the experience of individual players according to the power of their CPU in all this?

[Bigfish3 0]

It's jolly nice to see a range of views on this one. I've only had an opportunity to fly some QC missions so far, Triplane vs the new EV and for comparison vs DVII. An immediate plus to my mind is that the enemy conserves energy and stays high, instead of doing a circle or two and then diving for the deck, so that the rest of the dogfight occurs below 500 feet. Fun as this is, it doesn't seem to be what happened in the real thing. Now you get lots of turning at altitude, with the opposition converting height into energy, then zooming back up, and also using superior climb rate to stay high. However, they don't (again limited QC experience, and could be different in Campaign) seem to do much in the way of evasive manouevres under fire, nor do they try to get on my six and have a go at me (enemy set to "Ace"). If some "fix" is made to the AI behaviour, then it would be a shame to lose this new ability to stay high - but I feel they (or some of them, especially "Aces") need to be more aggressive. I agree with Bullethead's post earlier in this thread. But this isn't a complaint, I'm really enjoying the new add-on and continue to commend the developers for all their magnificent efforts.

[themightysrc 5]

"it precludes it in the new AI the same as in the old, because they were different reasons.

mainly because AI doesn't retreat. in neither AI."

 

Well, if that's the case, then I'm imagining seeing the dogfight I was in last night. I'm not sure I've seen enough of the new AI to say whether the new AI doesn't retreat in the same way that the 1.32g and earlier AI didn't retreat. All I can say is that after a scrap between about 8-9 Tripes and about 12 DIIIs, there was no huge pile of burning DIIIs, which would have been the result under earlier AI. If I were to reverse the experience and take a dozen DH2s into a fight with 8-9 DIIIs, I'd be interested to see if all the Briddish got shot down - more or less an outcome under the old AI - or whether I'd get a historically accurate outcome of something like a DIII or two downed, perhaps 3-4 DH's downed (I'm using downed here as unable to continue, rather than a spectacular fiery demise) and everyone else scattered?

 

That's the reality of WWI air combat that I'm talking about.

[Creaghorn 10]

strange i had no such experience yet. they were fighting to the end as usual, though taking longer in every single encounter i had.

[themightysrc 5]

Hi Creaghorn,

 

Well, there's only one way to find out - I'm going to enrol a new pilot this evening in a DH2 squadron in Bloody April and go looking for trouble! If you're right, I'll lose all my squadron (albeit slowly, maybe), if I'm right, I'll see them all for supper.

 

Cheers,

Si

[Creaghorn 10]

Hi Creaghorn,

 

Well, there's only one way to find out - I'm going to enrol a new pilot this evening in a DH2 squadron in Bloody April and go looking for trouble! If you're right, I'll lose all my squadron (albeit slowly, maybe), if I'm right, I'll see them all for supper.

 

Cheers,

Si

 

 

sounds good. wiping one side out also includes wiping the opponent out completely. that's what i meant when saying it. wether his side or my side was completely downed, but no seperation with survivors on both sides because one side breaks off.

[Buffin 0]

Hello all. I started to play the new campaign, and almost every happened to me incomprehensible thing. When I approached from behind the enemy aircraft and opened fire after a few seconds, I heard my interference airplane. From the somewhat gunfire coming from? And to my surprise, my companions through my plane shot at the same plane as me. Happened to someone that others their own pilots shot through you, only to be shot down enemy aircraft at any cost and at a price that injures or downs you?Sorry for bad English. Do Your own aircraft firing aircraft. Buffo

[Olham 164]

Zoomzoom: A more realistic variation of pilots and responses however, would be wonderfull.

I do agree with you though Creaghorn, they do need a bit more agile aggression.

 

No question for me, too.

Somewhere here I read, that the AI quality can not be mixed. That would be a pity,

cause then we can only encounter a totally rookie, a veteran, or an ace squadron.

A mixed squad would of course be far more interesting, as you would never know,

who the dangerous pilots are, until you fought them.

[+Polovski 415]

AI can be mixed in flights.

[Olham 164]

Ahh!! Great news, Polovski! Perhaps you should mix them more.

Like I just said - it would be a real thrill, not to know, who the very

good pilots are, but that there might be some.

[+Polovski 415]

They are sometimes mixed, but generally are the level of the squadron. Maybe for P4 depends on what is needed - there's usually a good reason why things are how they are - Winder does spend rather a lot of time programming :)

[DukeIronHand 8]

Hmmm...sounds like somebody knows something!

[VonGuber 2]

"mainly because AI doesn't retreat. in neither AI."

 

I must respectfully disagree, since I saw it happen last night. 2 Albatrosses that had been hit actually turned out of a fight and went towards the German side of the trenches. And, when they did, they flew straight and didn't maneuver except for losing altitude. I took it that they were damaged...since I dive for the lines when damaged. When a wingman attacked one of them, he did try to turn, but lost control and spun in...so he probably was damaged.

 

I'm in the "not quite there yet but let's not go back to before" camp.

[Von Paulus 8]

"mainly because AI doesn't retreat. in neither AI."

 

I must respectfully disagree, since I saw it happen last night. 2 Albatrosses that had been hit actually turned out of a fight and went towards the German side of the trenches.

 

Since HiTR it already happened a lot of times with me.. I don't remember this happen before.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Von Paulus

[zoomzoom 2]

Okay,just wrapped up a campaign mission that I must say was simply the most realistic "AI" wise that I have ever been on. Was patrolling behind German lines on balloon defense and we were jumped from behind by quite a squad of Nupes. The turning fight began,with some who closed first either being shot down (I beleive I saw at least one going down in smoke) or breaking off into thier own personal fights. I attacked one who head on pass fired at me, and after my return burst he dove away, leaving me to pursue another who was attacking a friend close by. My friendly dove for safety as I attacked this new opponent, putting some shots past and into him. He then climbed, and I had a devil of s time catching him (very realistic I might add, cause this is what I would do if I were him, and in his plane) after a long climbing turning struggle, I finally dove enough times to get energy for a few nose high shots. These finally damaged him enough that he turned and nosed down for home. I hit him breifly again and he combination dove mixed with evasive left and right dodges (damn realistic!!) But I've got you....or so I thought. See I'd forgotten about what was below us...so focused I was on my quarry, and as he levelled off again to sprint homeward I thought I fairly had him in the bag. That is until the tracers from his freind he dove in order to have assist him streaked past my head! I evaded in shock, but my engine and tail surfaces were already shot up badly. So badly that I broke off the attack, and landed quickly at a friendly field before my engine died.

 

And that my friends is how a realistic account of a WWI air struggle sounds. I'm sure some tweaks will help refine the current HITR AI...at least I hope so. But anybody who says the current AI is too easy and will simply increase your hours and kill tally hasn't seen the action I have so far. In fact, my kill tally has decreased substantially as a result, and as I stated earlier...I'll post my best pilots hours and kills against anyones here. That being said, we are all on the same side....that being the refinement of this realism. All I can say is, though, that this new AI has a remarkably "real-enemy pilot" feel to it. I'm still being suprised by it.

 

ZZ.

[DukeIronHand 8]

That being said, we are all on the same side....that being the refinement of this realism. All I can say is, though, that this new AI has a remarkably "real-enemy pilot" feel to it. I'm still being suprised by it.

ZZ.

 

I agree.

 

Just returned from a series of 5 quick combats - 4 early Alb DIII's vs 4 DH2's.

 

It may be too soon to really say but as of right now I like the "new AI" just fine. It does have a (here comes that word again) "realistic feel" to it. The enemy AI flew just fine and were plenty aggressive but not stupidly so, damaging me and certainly handling all my wingman - unless they disengaged as they were all gone after a short while.

 

Until now my biggest (and only) OFF complaint, now that I have the view system figured out, was the AI but ...again it may be too soon to say in concrete...I really like the AI and would not change a thing.

 

Superb job OFF Team!

[Baldric 42]

I'm finding, so far, that the AI that seems to be occurring in HiTR is quite good, perhaps needing some refinement in the area of evasive action. I don't want to see psychotic/sniper AI permeate and ruin the campaigning, instead maybe more challenging flying from the AI if thats possible. Sortie to Kill ratios are waaaaay too high, even in our current DiD Campaign, which might be taken care of a bit now given the changes brought by HiTR (my current kill/sortie ratio has already dropped in my SPAD VII pilots campaign- with the wind buffetting its a bit harder to draw a nice bead on the enemy cockpit ). I'd like to give this HiTR AI a chance to see how it pans out in our collective DiD campaign.

 

Maybe the devs can look at a balance slider, so those who demand psycho AI can have it, those who want to try the game on easy can have that, and those looking for a semblance of balance can have that too. Or anything in between the extremes. Just don't call psycho/Sniper AI realistic.

 

I just hope the next patch doesn't revert it back to the old AI until its been tested over time- there may be some subtle nuances no one has noticed yet?

[Mr. Lucky 0]

The flight I mentioned in another thread had both elements. The AI was very aggressive in the fight (shot down the other 4 planes in my flight) and the dogfight was so hectic I couldn't fixate on a single target long enough to see him actually go down though I did shoot down two. They did not fly passively at all until I damaged them and then their maneuvering became less, due to damage I assumed. I also spotted them first, I was looking back checking on my wingmen's position and I counted 5 instead of 4. Then, when I ran out of ammo and beat feet for home, I saw my pursuer actually reverse direction and return home after chasing me for a few miles on my side of the lines. With the previous AI, he would've chased me all the way to landing at my home base. I still like it so far. I only compare AI in campaign mode not QC.

[Morris 2]

overall the AI in HiTR is just to easy. Im killing the KRAUTS like flies.

 

m

[Guest British_eh]

Three years flying OFF , P1 - P3. Mostly fly Dr.1, Sop Tripe, SE5a, occasionally the Camel and N 17.

 

OK, so settings are DiD, and this is what I found. Flying a DR.1 in February Jasta 12, we four were jumped by 5 SE5a's. In a quick look with labels, there was one Ace. We stayed at altitude, and the scrap broke up into individual fights, at different altitudes. This is a drastic change for the better, with the AI. Using TIR, which sometimes in a skirmish, is a liability. I was able to get on the SE's six, but with a full fuel load vs the AI NO fuel load, they turned inside me. They, as previous AI, had more zoom. In the end, while battling one , another came around on my six, and I was badly holed. They took turns holing the airplane, until I was forced down, with a crash landing at the end.

 

My second go was with an SE5a, and again, a full fuel load was not a happy situation. I was up against some DV's, and when on the six of one, was able to get him smoking quite badly. At that point, I believe I had a mid air collison with likely an enemy AI, so, it is hard to judge.

 

On thing is clear, and that is that any change that will reduce the number of casualaties, is more realistic. There are numerous accounts of twenty or so planes involved in a scrap, with perhaps only one plane being shot down, and several other's being able to limp back. One of the more realistic traits would therefore be for the AI to turn and run. Having made a few inquiries with OBD, the CFS3 code is the mystery, and bits of it are slowly being unravelled. If their behaviour could be more evasive, that too would be a bonus. As for aggression, I have yet in P3 to have a Scout pilot last more than 6 hours. Now, that is not completely realistic. The 17 hour, or two week expectancy for the Front, was in a specific time of Bloody April. A report commissioned for Parliament in early 1917 gave the expectancy of a Bomber Crew of 10 weeks, and a Scout pilot 6 weeks, at the Western Front. If that could be incorporated into the sim, so that you don't die on your first mission ( as above), then truly the sim will be realistic. Many of us fly DiD, as this is the closest that we believe will give us the most comparable vicarious experience a game can provide. It is obviously an effort for the OBD Team, to tweak and adjust the sim, to provide this, ( I would presume).

 

I'll have to try more aircraft and scenario's b4 I can give a better overview. However, at the end of the day, the average pilot, this is you and me, should be able to reach the 17 hour, two week mark, b4 what will likely be, certain death soon.

 

Regards,

 

British_eh