Brand new DM and FM now ready!

[Olham 164]

Guys, what I mean is only this:

when my Albatros (any variant) is getting hit by only 2-3 rounds in an attack on two-seaters,

the engine is damaged. And I simply do not believe, that the engine could be damaged so often

and so easily.

Many of the rounds would have to go through the spinner or through the frontal fuselage rib.

Some may have been deviated by the prop, or hit the prop.

Then, WW I rounds were not as effective as WW2 ammo.

And: the Mercedes D.III was quite a solid built engine.

I did not read so much about engine damage, even during two-seater attacks.

 

Considering all this, engine damage should not occur almost each and every time I attack a two-seater.

 

I know the various ways of attacks, and I mostly attack from below their six.

So often they do not hit me at all.

 

But as soon as the Albatros DOES get hit during your attack by only 2 - 3 rounds, you can bet 1.000 Pounds

on that the engine will be damaged.

 

Hope I could make clear, what I mean.

 

.

Edited August 1, 2011 by Olham

[Creaghorn 10]

Guys, what I mean is only this:

when my Albatros (any variant) is getting hit by only 2-3 rounds in an attack on two-seaters,

the engine is damaged. And I simply do not believe, that the engine could be damaged so often

and so easily.

Many of the rounds would have to go through the spinner or through the frontal fuselage rib.

Some may have been deviated by the prop, or hit the prop.

Then, WW I rounds were not as effective as WW2 ammo.

And: the Mercedes D.III was quite a solid built engine.

I did not read so much about engine damage, even during two-seater attacks.

 

Considering all this, engine damage should not occur almost each and every time I attack a two-seater.

 

I know the various ways of attacks, and I mostly attack from below their six.

So often they do not hit me at all.

 

But as soon as the Albatros DOES get hit during your attack by only 2 - 3 rounds, you can bet 1.000 Pounds

on that the engine will be damaged.

 

Hope I could make clear, what I mean.

 

.

 

ah, now that sounds more verständlich and now i weiss what you mein .

 

maybe you should try HPW's rear accuracy mod. then the gunners have even less accuracy then in the stock version.

 

you are right. sometimes it seems that they fire one bullet, and it always hits the engine. but you must not forget that it's maybe just an impression. when they hit you while you are flying away, then they very rarely hit your engine. but when you are behind them, representing your front to them, then it might be enough to be in their line of fire for a second or two. the frontview of you is mostly covered by prop and engine. so wether they are going to hit your prop or engine, or miss you completely, unless hitting a wing or so. in the line of fire for 2 seconds might be a stream of about 20 bullets coming at you. and if just one or two of those bullets (remember, you are in those moments for the gunner almost just engine and prop) hit, then the engine might be damaged.

of course i doubt the hitbox is clever enough to realize if only the iron block, or the frame got hit, a cylinder or whatever. it just recognizes hit or no hit, and then depending on the DM.

Edited August 1, 2011 by Creaghorn

[Olham 164]

the frontview of you is mostly covered by prop and engine.

The front view is covered a lot by the spinner and the frontal fuselage rib behind the spinner.

You see very little of the engine.

 

...i doubt the hitbox is clever enough to realize if only the iron block, or the frame got hit, a cylinder or whatever.

Exactly, Creaghorn - the hit would in many cases not be damaging much, as the round went through

spinner or frontal rib or propellor before - and may therefor not have had enough energy left to do damage

on such a heavy and robust machine.

Only the cylinders and valves look out at the top and could be hit directly.

But the chance of that to happen should be far, far smaller than it is right now.

Edited August 1, 2011 by Olham

[+Polovski 460]

The "engine" has many soft parts, cables, wires, liquids, electrics, all around etc it's not just a block. However the damagebox is as I say correct size wise.

 

All you can do is make AI aim worse an engine hit is an engine hit (or several). Set less accurate gunnery in workshop or use a mod to make it even worse sure.

You hear the engine damage on ANY engine damage. It may well fly on for 2 weeks or 2 minutes it does NOT mean your engine is broken. Maybe the best things is to remove the broken engine sound?

 

Yes we can make tiny damage boxes, some will like, and some will moan that they fired 4000 rounds and saw all the bullets pass through the engine (it will also pass by a small box easily and likely just hit something else soft like a pilot).

 

The problem also is many people here are veterans of OFF, so now what was hard is very easy, very hard to balance for all people from all experiences and we do try.

 

There are a lot of differences in Phase 4 but P3 is what it is.

[Creaghorn 10]

The front view is covered a lot by the spinner and the frontal fuselage rib behind the spinner.

You see very little of the engine.

 

 

Exactly, Creaghorn - the hit would in many cases not be damaging much, as the round went through

spinner or frontal rib or propellor before - and may therefor not have had enough energy left to do damage

on such a heavy and robust machine.

Only the cylinders and valves look out at the top and could be hit directly.

But the chance of that to happen should be far, far smaller than it is right now.

 

although the spinner is mostly just a sheet of metal and is not really protecting anything, so there is no need to actually see the engine to hit it with a bullet, like there is no protection for the pilot when a bullet goes through plywood or canvas. but you are right. a little more smart engine DM or hitbox would be great

[Olham 164]

Here is a graphic by Mark Miller; I have painted in the spinner (yellow) and the metal hood (light blue).

I know, that the metal hood was not thick, but when the rounds are coming from the front, the impact

angle is very flat, which should deviate the rounds, at least a good bit. So would the revolving spinner.

 

This is not meant to be an "argh, the two-seaters always hurt me!" complain.

I have downed even Bristol Fighters successfully.

It is only just, that engine damage appears too often - almost every time, and even from further away.

 

 

Edited August 1, 2011 by Olham

[+Polovski 460]

It's the sound you hear for ANY damage though that makes you think the engine is broken. There is usually a solid NOSE damage box in front of many engines too. It is smaller than that of the nose to represent the fact that bullets can go through the nose (spinner etc) to the engine. We could make them much bigger of course (and that would make it hard for guys who like to fire from observer seat to bring down the craft chasing you) but P4 is different in many respects so we shall see how it goes.

[Creaghorn 10]

Its the sound you hear for ANY damage though that makes you think the engine is broken.

 

 

yes, that's for sure also a reason. also when having an oilleak etc. you'll hear the damaged engine sound.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

You hear the engine damage on ANY engine damage. It may well fly on for 2 weeks or 2 minutes it does NOT mean your engine is broken. Maybe the best things is to remove the broken engine sound?

THIS is the key point. ANY damage (even a single bullet) triggers the engine damaged sound. However, the clanking, damaged engine sound does not mean that your engine is going to fail. It's just an indication that you have been hit there. The real indication your engine is going to fail is a substantial loss of RPM's at full throttle.

 

Here's a test: Disable the mod and fly a mission against a two-seater. Allow them to hit your engine in two bursts. Disengage and then fly around and time how long it takes for your engine to die. Now, enable my mod and fly the same mission. Measure how long your engine lasts after you get hit. The time should be longer because the Alb engine in my mod has roughly 7 times more hit points than the OFF version.

 

For those of you debating on whether to try my mod or not. Note that just because the engine in my mod has more hit points does NOT mean that it takes 7 times as many hits to destroy it. I have also adjusted the values that control bad events such as oil leaks and fires so that these events happen LONG before your engine has lost all of its hit points.

[Olham 164]

You may have got me wrong there, Herr Prop-Wasche.

I was not complaining about your DM, but about the fact, that the engine is always getting hit.

 

In fact your DM often makes the damage less serious, and I have noticed, that I could sometimes

fly all the way home without the engine cutting out.

Pol said it above - you get that sound even, when there is a minor hit.

I don't know if that could be changed in P4 without too much trouble - it would sure be nicer.

Edited August 1, 2011 by Olham

[+Polovski 460]

P1 / P2 had similar large engine damage as HPW has now, and oil leaks, fuel leaks etc in earlier places, long flying flamers then appear more often as is the case with it.

 

Along the way we had many votes on damage and we are where we are.

 

Anyway we will as always try our best to make it as best as possible, we can do no more, last I'm saying here back to work.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

I understand, Olham, my friend. I was just pointing out for others that I hadn't done anything to make the engines even easier to damage.

 

It would be nice if the devs could cause the engine damaged sound to trigger after the engine had been damaged by a certain amount instead of just one bullet, but I think that is hard coded into the sim.

 

Pol also said that P4 is different in many respects, which makes me think they have re-thought the entire damage model.

[Olham 164]

Pol, before the others come to tie me on to a barbeque grill for keeping you off

from getting on with P4, I say: I know you will do the best possible work;

and a triple "cheers!", and now - where were you?

[cptroyce 0]

I love this latest spate of posts on the DM...it reminds me of those times years ago when the RB forum was running "wild".

[SirMike1983 3]

I love this latest spate of posts on the DM...it reminds me of those times years ago when the RB forum was running "wild".

 

Nice to see some other old RB3d 94th alums around still.

(US94th Vigo)

Edited August 1, 2011 by SirMike1983

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

We here at Combatace prefer to "run mild."

[33LIMA 972]

Just flew a campaign mission with the latest HPW FMs and DM in an Albatros DIII (early). Attacked a formation of 4 Strutters at 3000m. Either I still have not got the hang of the 'attack' command, with or without the 'radar' turned on and targets selected or not, or my wingmen are complete dolts (and cowards to boot) or maybe they attacked completely different targets I didn't even see; but apart from one desultory effort they ignored the targets under their noses and left me to it.

 

Anyway I ended up attacking the flight of strutters on my own and had a hard time staying in my targets' blind spots, ended up more often than I should have, trading rounds desparately with the observers, while their formation mates had a good rattle at me, undisturbed by my useless flight mates. Yes my engine was hit and eventually it conked out but not before I got two and had already disengaged after expended all my ammo and then tailed the retreating Sopwiths for a while, trying once again to get my flight mates to attack the beggars.

 

Considering my fairly determined (reckless?) solo attacks (and the fact the strutters seemed to have a Gotha-style fuselage tunnel they could shoot through, who was it said OFF 2-seaters had a poor field of fire, not these guys!) and the fact my motor kept going long enough after being hit, I don't have any complaints about the engine damage, based on that sortie at least. Rear gunners are set at 'Less accurate', any higher and I wouldn't be writing this :) Time will tell.

[cptroyce 0]

SirMike - S! I think I recall when you joined the 94th..those were fun times!

 

 

Royce

[Hellshade 110]

I think perhaps 1 in 10 flamers at best might still have the bug. Mostly they catch fire, explode soon after and go down realistically trailing black smoke. The few that might have been showing the bug, I couldn't tell because they appeared to be descending, just slowly..so I hammered them with a few more rounds and they went down quickly. The FM / DM combo is wonderful HPW. I know you are working on a FM update with someone else and I can't wait to try it out. For me, this DM added a great deal more difficulty back into the game. So far, I've lost two N17 pilots due to lower wing failure. One Sopwith Triplane pilot to a flak burst and a second Triplane pilot to a combination of a flak burst, which caused me to turn and head back towards my lines...but not before I was overtaken by a pair of Alb DIIIs who finished the job the flak had started.

 

I find the combat to last longer and the enemy AI (and my wingmen!) has a fair chance to keep manuevering throughout most of the fight unless I get a pilot hit. I haven't seen many Albs pulling up until a total stall out, which is a good thing. Generally, I tend to run out of ammo before I run out of planes to shoot at. Sometimes my flight mops up the sky but other times I've had to call the whole flight to try and make a run for it after we finished one dogfight and were shortly thereafter jumped by a fresh flight of the Kaisers best. Perhaps they were elite because they were getting the best of us fairly quickly. Even when I get hit, I am still in the fight just with a bit more difficulty. It ramps up the challenge but without making it near suicidal. It's a real choice to stay in a duke it out or make for the safe side of the lines. I like that.

 

Thank you for your wonderful work and for putting up with my pestering about the cables and wings. Have a beer on me sir.

 

Hellshade

Edited August 2, 2011 by Hellshade

[Burning Beard 14]

I was with the Ringers for a couple of years up to the end of the squadron. I think at the end we only had about five pilots, and it was harder and harder to get the big online wars running, especially with the limitations of the game and the hacking that was rampant.

 

Beard

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Thank you for your wonderful work and for putting up with my pestering about the cables and wings. Have a beer on me sir.

 

I think I will take you up on that!

 

Thanks.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

As promised, I have another FM addition to share with all of you OFF'ers.

 

This FM mod is for the Spad VII and XIII and contains not two, but FIVE separate Spad FMs--one for each engine variant of each Spad model. This allows you to fly with and against the following Spad models: Spad VII 150 HP, Spad VII 180 HP, Spad XIII 200 HP, Spad XIII 220 HP, and Spad XIII 235 HP versions. Up until now, only the Spad VII 180 and the Spad XIII 235 HP versions were available in the stock game. This helps to even out the historical score somewhat and better reflects the back and forth nature of the battle for aircraft and air superiority between the Allied and Central powers during the course of the war.

 

The following is an excerpt from the readme file for the FM mod. Please note the installation instructions for this mod are slightly different from my other mods. The full readme contains more information about the performance of each of the five models and some brief guidelines for when each Spad model and engine variant made its appearance over Flander's Fields.

 

The FM has been uploaded and should soon be available for download.

 

Readme File 03/08/2011

 

HPW_Spads for OFF BHaH HITR Full Campaign and QC Battles

 

v1.0

 

by Herr Prop Wasche

 

Zip file contents:

 

HPW_Spads zip file containing five folders named SpadVII_150,

SpadVII_180, Spad13_200, Spad13_220, and Spad13_235 with appropriate

aircraft folders and aircraft.cfg and .air files.

HPW_SpadsFM_readme.txt

 

INSTALLATION: IMPORTANT! INSTALLATION OF THIS MOD IS SLIGHTLY

DIFFERENT FROM MY OTHER MODS! First, download the mod to your

desktop or other preferred location. Then, open the zip file and

open the HPWSpads file folder. Select ALL FIVE Spad folders and

copy to your OBDSoftware\CFSWW1 Over Flanders Fields\MODS folder.

DO NOT install the mod unless JSGME has already been installed into

your CFSWW1 Over Flanders Fields game folder. The mod is correctly

installed if you see this readme.txt and the following folders

inside the MODS folder: SpadVII_150, SpadVII_180, Spad13_200,

Spad13_220, and Spad13_235. To load your desired aircraft, simply

run JSGME, highlight the appropriate folder, click on the top

button, and then start your game. That's it!

 

NOTE: In order to see the aircraft skins of any Spad aces while

using this mod, please see the first post of Panama Red's thread

titled "A Guaranteed Fix for Using Aces Skins and HPW FM's" at the

Over Flanders Fields Forum at combatace.com for instructions on the

easy work-around.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Initial release 1.0

 

Thank you for downloading HPW's Spads FM Pack 1.0, a revised flight

model for FIVE different Spad series aircraft for use in Hat in the

Ring, the official extension to Between Heaven and Hell, the WWI

flight sim modification of CFS3 by OBD Software. This revised

interpretation of the Spad VII and Spad XIII flight models was made

to represent the different engines used by each aircraft and to

better reflect the evolution in performance of each aircraft during

the course of the war.

[Javito1986 14]

Ohhh! Very nice! I'm tempted to make a French pilot now. I don't think I've ever flown French in OFF yet...

[+elephant 36]

Spads were flown by RFC as well...

[Hasse Wind 46]

Thanks for this mod. I've always loved the SPAD fighters, so I'll put the mod to use immediately.