60 years ago...

[+JonathanRL 974]

...Soviet Aircraft shot down a Swedish SIGINT DC-3 Bird over International waters, then shot down the SAR Bird looking for it.

 

The fate of half of the crew is still unknown. Before the DC-3 was found and salvaged, the only thing that had been found was a life raft, carrying the sign of Soviet Cannon Fire.

 

This is known as the Catalina Affair. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalina_affair

 

For many years, the Swedish Government denied the true status of the bird, and the Soviets denied shooting it down. The secrecy on both sides have been especially tough for the family and loved ones of the crew.

[Derk 265]

Ugly incident, typical for the paranoid attitude and agressive way of thinking of the Soviets in those days....

The nearby island to where it happened looks like paradise to me.....

[Lazarus1177 164]

The Chinese have done similar things.

[+JonathanRL 974]

The nearby island to where it happened looks like paradise to me.....

 

If you mean Gotska Sandön, yes it is. Especially if you are a nature photographer. Never been there myself, sadly.

[+hgbn 91]

I guess maybe a couple of Soviet "Trawlers" has been "lost" at sea too

[Slartibartfast 153]

Along with a couple of Submarines parking themselves on Rocks outside harbours etc...

[+JonathanRL 974]

I guess maybe a couple of Soviet "Trawlers" has been "lost" at sea too

 

There was one in particular in Öregrund as I recall it. NATO & Swedish divers had a field day with it...

[B52STRATO 215]

SIGINT missions and flights have always been dangerous. But Congratulations to these men whose work has never really paid attention to an entirely representative work. There are few studies on the missions undertaken by the RF-80, RF-86, RF-100 "Slick Chick" or RB-57A in Europe or Taiwanese U-2A.

I guess maybe a couple of Soviet "Trawlers" has been "lost" at sea too

 

"Strangely" these "trawlers" magically disappeared from the coast near the harbor of Brest in 1991

[Stratos 3,191]

S! and thanks Jonathan for the great mod that you made so we can fly the Tunnan!

[MigBuster 2,884]

Interesting story thanks

[exhausted 55]

Ugh this really pisses me off.

 

We sure were pretty bad to each other back then.

 

The paranoia still persists. It's still like a Mexican stand off, but the guns are lowered.

[Atreides 144]

a Mexican stand off, but the guns are lowered.

 

 

and no Tequila either !

[+Gepard 11,293]

There were a lot of western planes shot down by soviet fighters in this time. Of course all of them (i mean the western planes) had peacefull intentions or made navigation errors and the bad soviets were trigger happy to shot down the innocent western planes.

[+JonathanRL 974]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

 

Peaceful indeed ^^

[+hgbn 91]

There were a lot of western planes shot down by soviet fighters in this time. Of course all of them (i mean the western planes) had peacefull intentions or made navigation errors and the bad soviets were trigger happy to shot down the innocent western planes.

 

Sometimes you'll have to sacrifice some pawn's in order to win. When you play chess. Its all part of the game

Edited June 13, 2012 by hgbn

[B52STRATO 215]

There were a lot of western planes shot down by soviet fighters in this time. Of course all of them (i mean the western planes) had peacefull intentions or made navigation errors and the bad soviets were trigger happy to shot down the innocent western planes.

 

Of course, strangely it reminds me of the men of Cubana's Yak-42D that came before in St. Martin, then went to Guadeloupe before returning to Cuba. One day one of them past, "unintentionally", over the U.S. Navy fuel stock area in St. Eustatius, but beware, unintentionally.

[MigBuster 2,884]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

 

Peaceful indeed ^^

 

 

Terrible that - Yefim Gordon put the radio transcript between the PVO GCI and the pilot in his Sukhoi interceptors book - in that the GCI does ask if he can ID the target - and the pilot responds "of course not" - yet in the interview on that Wiki page the pilot says he knew it was a Boeing - of course this means nothing in the heat of the moment the pilot might have either realised this after the shoot down, or just been to much of a robot to dare question the GCI over the radio.

[+JonathanRL 974]

http://fly.historicwings.com/2012/06/the-catalina-affair/

http://fly.historicwings.com/2012/06/the-catalina-affair-part-2-of-3/

 

If you want to read more.

[+Gepard 11,293]

The KAL007 shotdown was a bad game on the back of the passengers.

And it has a very bitter taste, because the american intelligence community sacrificed innocent life by doing nothing. It was a "nice" trap and the soviets were catched with trousers down.

[+JonathanRL 974]

I have actually seen no proof that KAL 007 was an intelligence trap. Rather, considering what secrets the US Military had to leak to prevent it happening again, I would say all Soviet got was badwill, and they already had much of that in the West.

 

Also, I feel that the fact that the Aircraft was shot down - after visual contact no less - is the main catch of the story. You do not fire upon a unknown unless you know it will present a clear and present danger to you or anything around you.

[+hgbn 91]

I think KAL 007 just was a very unlucky victim in a mix up with the RC-135 which was lurking around in same area..

[+Gepard 11,293]

Okay. To the KAL story.

There was a RC-135 in the aera. That had sniffed around a lot of times, came over the radar horizon and hide behind it. Again and again, contiuse provocation over some hours. When the KAL007 appeared, the RC-135 was on the way home, but the soviets thought, that the KAL Jumbo was the RC-135 again. Missidentifikation is easily possible, because the RC-135 has a humpback like the 747.

Some days ago, american planes violated the soviet airspace in big numbers, flew across Kamchatka penisula, which was seen as a humilation of the soviet air defence. The officers in Far east got serious troubles with STAVKA (soviet HQ), so that they were willing to stop every violation of airspace with using of fire.

The americans were aware of the soviet alert situation and knew that the kAL was away from its course. In this situation they could have easily contacted the KAL plane or via Red Telephone the soviets. But they did nothing.

The american side is as guilty as the soviet side for the dead of innocent people.

 

You say, the plane was indentified. This is only partly true. It was identified as a 4 engine plane with humpback and lights on the side. In the soviet air community is gave the rumour, that the americans used camo lights to cover their SIGINT RC-135 as Boing 747, so the KAL Jumbo was seen as american spy plane and thatswhy shoten down.

Of course this was a big mistake.

But only some days later the same ground contoller ordered an fighter attack on a soviet IL-22 sub hunter, because it was missidentified as P-3 Orion.

[JediMaster 451]

I just love how people love to blame the US for when OTHER people pull the trigger. You are responsible for what YOU do, not someone else. If they "trick" you into killing people, it's your own fault for getting tricked. When the US gets "tricked", it's funny how the US still gets blamed with a "you should've known better." But if the US is accused of doing the tricking, it's ALSO the US' fault.

 

That's right up there with blaming the woman for wearing "slutty clothes" when she got raped.

 

Is it any wonder so few of us hold those anti-US opinions in any esteem whatsoever when it's nothing but "the reason THIS situation is the US' fault is because..." over and over? Non-stop "the US should take responsibility for..." while no OTHER country "has to"?

Look at Libya. We sort-of intervened, and got a bunch of sort-of criticisms back. On the one hand, we shouldn't have because Al Qaeda will move in! But on the other hand, we should have done more because of Gaddafi's evil! Trying to blame us for both not doing enough soon enough and doing too much all at the same time.

 

It's idiotic and we're tired of it. Frankly I think the US should pull out of everything everywhere and let the world burn. Everyone else knows better when the US should or shouldn't intervene in something, and it's pretty much always 100% opposite of when we DID. Let's watch China and Russia and the UK and France and Germany go help all these countries and stop the evil groups. Like when the US ignored Sudan but the rest all stepped up...oh wait, did they NOT do anything about that either?

[+JonathanRL 974]

Hey lads. Let us just agree to disagree on this one. We are getting out of topic anyhow. I am sorry for bringing KAL up :)

 

At any rate, Historic Wings asked me for some input on their story about The Catalina Affair and they have published two parts about it:

http://fly.historicwings.com/2012/06/the-catalina-affair/

http://fly.historicwings.com/2012/06/the-catalina-affair-part-2-of-3/

Edited June 14, 2012 by JonathanRL

[+Gepard 11,293]

Okay, back to the Catalina.

One problem was that the soviets and the western states disagrred about the sea borders of the Soviet union. In western views, the bay of Riga was (in the 40th - 60th of the last century) open and international water, while the soviets claimed it as their own territory.