Brazil chooses Gripen

[+JonathanRL 974]

Loss of American dignity and the sale of the excellent Super Hornets to Brazil is what the NSA have cost the American people as the Rafaele ran out of gas and could not afford fuel not even halfway to the finish line. It has been announced in Swedish and Brazilian newspapers that the Saab Gripen NG is the choice of the Brazilian Government to equip their air force. The Gripen has been the favourite of the Air Force for some time, mainly due to low maintenance costs. I wonder if this means the Sea Gripen project will start in earnest. It was mainly aimed at India, but Brazil could be interested as well.
 

 

Edited December 18, 2013 by JonathanRL

[MAKO69 186]

A mighty fine warplane. A lot less expensive than the Hornet, but still a very diverse and impressive war load.

[MigBuster 2,884]

Can't seem to give SHornets away!

[+ST0RM 145]

Wow, that is a surprise. Given that Dassault was practically giving the Rafale away in exchange for older Mirages.

 

Good for SAAB. Nice to the Gripen move forward.

 

-Jeff

[Marcfighter 24]

:hyper: :kudos: :grin:

[+JonathanRL 974]

Wow, that is a surprise. Given that Dassault was practically giving the Rafale away in exchange for older Mirages.

 

Well, good for Dassault to get the Indian deal. If they had not got that, the Rafae would be buried now.

[+76.IAP-Blackbird 3,557]

Rafale goes to India and Gripen to Brasil, both companys have their deal and we can start modding!

[MigBuster 2,884]

[Snailman 517]

I hope Brazil knows what they do...  Gripen was a huge failure for us.

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

I hope Brazil knows what they do...  Gripen was a huge failure for us.

They're not getting the same aircraft, they're getting the NG variant-- a completely different aircraft.

 

I thought the typical sour grapes from Dassault was amusing:

 

 

“We regret that the choice has gone in favor of the Gripen, an aircraft provided with many items of equipment of third-party origin, especially US, and that does not belong to the same category as the Rafale,” the company said in a statement. “The Gripen is a lighter, single engine aircraft that does not match the Rafale in terms of performance and therefore does not carry the same price tag. This financial rationale fails to take into account either the Rafale’s cost-effectiveness or the level of technology offered.”

The fact is, the FAB are cash-strapped and simply can't afford an aircraft that is roughly (USD) $40-$50 million dollars more per unit, not to mention the higher through-life costs, support, training, etc. Not to mention that dealing with French defense contractors can be a nightmare much of the time. Just ask India. 

 

Then again, we've been here before. In 2007, we were told the frontrunner was the Superbug, then in 2009 the Brasilian President Lula announced that the Rafale had won after Sarkozy had twisted his arm. Then Joe Biden visited President Dilma Rouseff earlier this year and then shortly afterwards the Superbug was back at the top of this list again (possibly, Rouseff might have said anything to shut Biden up, because once he starts, he doesn't stop! ), before the US sabotaged themselves with the whole NSA debacle. Even though the FAB has been sold on the Gripen since roughly 2010 (I think), the political element to the program has been incredibly fluid since 2009. As much as I'd like to see FAB Gripens NGs, I don't think I'll believe anything until I see aircraft actually being delivered.

[+pcpilot 181]

Dang Migbuster, I about spit my coffee on the monitor again...lol!

[+streakeagle 871]

I hope Brazil knows what they do...  Gripen was a huge failure for us.

How/why was it a failure? I always thought it was an efficient design only held back by politics (i.e. US pressure to buy US planes or the fact that they rely heavily on US components).

[Snailman 517]

Long story.

 

The Gripen contract in Hungary was the biggest corruption scandal of the decade. Similarly to Austria and to our train and tram contracts from Siemens. Since all three previous governments co-prospered from the deal they swept the case under carpet. The price was horrendous for only a handful of leased (12+2 non-combat capable trainers) they have paid a sum they could equip two times more F-16s and the entire airforce (3+ squadrons) of latest generation MiGs as part of a favorable barter deal with Russia. Politics, but differently. It is not about anti-US or anti-russian choice, it was purely that, corruption-overpriced black deal. On barter they could not take the toll. They have spent all the military funds the Gripens, but gave away our MiGs and tanks and artillery for FREE to Iraq, Israel, Afghanistan loyalist ... AFTER they have been refurbished on our tax billions!!!

As for the performance of the plane (that variant we received, without armament) I cant tell any objective opinion, Im not a pilot. But regarding the older generation, the pilots still cry back the MiGs and even the F-16 is considered superior by them, in the hands of equally trained pilots. On our military forums it is a 12 year-old debate.  For 10 years the contract was delayed, problems after problems, lack of armament, inoperable radars, the lack of about 90% capabilities of the plane. Out of the 12 only 3 was continuously operational most of the time. Local policy about maintenance (the lack there of) and "no funds to operate" type whining from the Ministry of Defence. This is a hi-tech combat plane with precision equipment and high sensitivity. Also never been tested in live conditions. It was proved that it has to be well maintained and serviced, not suitable for ex-soviet and third world style conditions. Especially if the government has no interest in keeping them in combat readiness. Purchase? Profit. Upkeep? Loss...

Then let them used up in the remaining 3 years, while the lease contract expires. Clearly the Gripen was purchased to be en expensive fragile "demonstator" toy. They promised AMRAAM... they promised Maverick... ground attack capabilty... air refuelling... the stars from the sky. In their state they are useless for combat... That is why I wrote, I do hope in Brazil will be wiser.

Btw Romania has just purchased F-16s. A lot of them. And they still have all MiG-21-93s, too.

 

 

The IKEA pic is hilarious.... still choking on laughter))

Edited December 19, 2013 by Snailman

[+JonathanRL 974]

If it is any comfort, Saab took a huge shitstorm for the use of corruption in its sales here in Sweden. I doubt they will try it again, and some say it is why the Indian contract was lost.

 

 

Especially if the government has no interest in keeping them in combat readiness.

I have to say this is the key thing here. Most of your issues seem to be from political decisions - and believe me when I say what that can do to a countrys defence forces! Our own forces suffer from that everyday - not our Gripens since Swedish defence right now is all about keeping the Arms industry in business at the expense of everything else. 

However, since your aircraft is leased from our Air Force, I would hope you take better care of them. Because that may cost you more money in the end.

[B52STRATO 215]

Seems a bit logical. Why would they paid for a twin engines aircraft to replace their single engine ones. I especially wonder what the Marinha will choose to replace its old Skyhawk, here on sea, the single jet engines are not really more on the agenda.

[Toryu 156]

 

 I wonder if this means the Sea Gripen project will start in earnest. It was mainly aimed at India, but Brazil could be interested as well.

Given the experience Saab has with naval fighters (none), I wouldn't expect too much in the near future.

 

 

The fact is, the FAB are cash-strapped and simply can't afford an aircraft that is roughly (USD) $40-$50 million dollars more per unit, not to mention the higher through-life costs, support, training, etc. Not to mention that dealing with French defense contractors can be a nightmare much of the time. Just ask India. 

I don't see why the statement by AMD is any "sour grapes" at all - they're mostly right.

FAB has been a long-time supporter of AMD anyway (Mirages III and 2000).

Today, they're out of cash.

 

The Eurocanards (and current *new* american fighters) are all way too expensive for any non-first-world-country. Even the first-world-countries are struggleing with the cost associated with those aircraft.

Thus, we'll see lots of Gripens sold/ leased in the future - same with F-16s (used or new). Those are basicly the larges "bang" thouse countries can afford.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Toryu

[Derk 265]

Well, congrats to SAAB, they have been doing well lately !!

[MAKO69 186]

Long story.

 

The Gripen contract in Hungary was the biggest corruption scandal of the decade. Similarly to Austria and to our train and tram contracts from Siemens. Since all three previous governments co-prospered from the deal they swept the case under carpet. The price was horrendous for only a handful of leased (12+2 non-combat capable trainers) they have paid a sum they could equip two times more F-16s and the entire airforce (3+ squadrons) of latest generation MiGs as part of a favorable barter deal with Russia. Politics, but differently. It is not about anti-US or anti-russian choice, it was purely that, corruption-overpriced black deal. On barter they could not take the toll. They have spent all the military funds the Gripens, but gave away our MiGs and tanks and artillery for FREE to Iraq, Israel, Afghanistan loyalist ... AFTER they have been refurbished on our tax billions!!!

As for the performance of the plane (that variant we received, without armament) I cant tell any objective opinion, Im not a pilot. But regarding the older generation, the pilots still cry back the MiGs and even the F-16 is considered superior by them, in the hands of equally trained pilots. On our military forums it is a 12 year-old debate.  For 10 years the contract was delayed, problems after problems, lack of armament, inoperable radars, the lack of about 90% capabilities of the plane. Out of the 12 only 3 was continuously operational most of the time. Local policy about maintenance (the lack there of) and "no funds to operate" type whining from the Ministry of Defence. This is a hi-tech combat plane with precision equipment and high sensitivity. Also never been tested in live conditions. It was proved that it has to be well maintained and serviced, not suitable for ex-soviet and third world style conditions. Especially if the government has no interest in keeping them in combat readiness. Purchase? Profit. Upkeep? Loss...

Then let them used up in the remaining 3 years, while the lease contract expires. Clearly the Gripen was purchased to be en expensive fragile "demonstator" toy. They promised AMRAAM... they promised Maverick... ground attack capabilty... air refuelling... the stars from the sky. In their state they are useless for combat... That is why I wrote, I do hope in Brazil will be wiser.

Btw Romania has just purchased F-16s. A lot of them. And they still have all MiG-21-93s, too.

 

 

The IKEA pic is hilarious.... still choking on laughter))

Sounds like your government has the same issues as are's.

[Nesher 628]

good luck to the Brazilians and good job by Saab!

[+Gepard 11,323]

The Eurocanards (and current *new* american fighters) are all way too expensive for any non-first-world-country. Even the first-world-countries are struggleing with the cost associated with those aircraft.

 

 

Well spoken. The Eurofighter is much to much overpriced. And it is now operational for 10 years in the Luftwaffe. And the Boss of the Luftwaffe explained some days ago: This plane is still in "introduction phase". LOL

What Europe or US aircraft industry completly lost from their screens are the export markets. All available planes are to expensive for South and Middle America, Africa and most of Asia. Its only a question of time till China with his cheap J-10 and FC-1 will take over this markets. A lot of Air Forces needs replacement for their MiG-21 and F-5 Tiger fleets. The west has nothing to offer for them.

 

 

I think Brazil took a good choice. They will have a lot of fun with this plane. Perhaps not the best of the world, but compeltly enough for the needs of Brazil.

[Toryu 156]

Funny story is, that initially, India wanted more M2ks, but Dassault forced the Rafale.

 

For 99% of the wars to be fought (yes, that includes 99% of the wars fought by the US), an M2k or an F-16/ F-18 (or even a SH) are more than enough - in part because they're *there* right now.

Those phantasy fighters, that everyone gets so excited about (we needz more of dem F-22s!!!oneeleven) are absolutely useless and pointless. What do we use them for? Bombing the sheet out of some empty tent in the desert?

Got drone?

 

But Toryu, they're scaring off China!

Yeah, like they give a duck about a bomb that could possibly delivered in the future by a not quite yet integrated weapon-system that could - theoretically - be there in ten years...If we payed amount X of cash today and payed amount Y of cash over the next couple of years because everything got *surprisingly* thrice as expensive.

 

 

I think Brazil took a good choice. They will have a lot of fun with this plane. Perhaps not the best of the world, but compeltly enough for the needs of Brazil.

 

Exactly.

[Peugeot205 2,745]

Horrible decision.... May be because I'm French ;) ?  Perhaps....

 

The Rafale should be the right decision....

 

It is true that Brazil is not a NATO member and that it has not been involved in recent conflicts, however, for a country of it's size, and with the huge economy it has , only 36 planes , and gripens, it is not a good decision. The Gripen is a good plane, nevertheless,  it is just a low cost fighter , good enough for a small air force , but not for the air force of one of the most important countries in the world like  Brazil. Reasons for buying the Rafale:

 

* Much powerfull platform

* Used in combat (Afganistan, Lybia, Mali, etc..)

* Carrier-Base capable (The Brazilian navy operates obsolete A-4's from the Foch, the Rafale can be operated from the Foch , in fact it was tested there , M version from 1993)

* First foreign user of the plane, with possibility of having a technology exchange.

* In 2009 Nicolas Sarkozy    signed with the Brazilian goverment a securty procurement.

* Dassault has always been one of the best manufaturers giving the best  products without any limitation to it's costumers, not like other countries you know...

 

Summing up, from my point of view a bad decision , however at least Brazil buys modern fighters , not like Argentina....

,

Edited December 19, 2013 by cangas

[JediMaster 451]

Brazil hasn't had to worry about more than regional defense for a long time now. The Gripen is fine for that. I don't know what ambitions it has as far as global deployments/activities, but the Gripen should work well enough for that if they choose to, even if it's not ideal.

[Toryu 156]

Brazil doesn't have the cash to operate Rafales. They also don't have the need to.

[+JonathanRL 974]

Horrible decision.... May be because I'm French ;) ?  Perhaps....

Come now, chap. You got the Indian deal...

 

Besides, you are taking it a lot better then some of your countrymen ;-)