Brazil chooses Gripen

[MigBuster 2,861]

What is the main task for a fighter pilot in Europe or South America today? Air Policing! Nothing else. For this job the Gripen is perfect.

The time of Cold War is over. We dont live under the permanent danger of war anymore. 

 

Agree - they are buying the best they can no doubt afford based in their assessments - the car analogy fits there

 

Don't Agree - nobody is buying military equipment based on World peace happening next week - its totally irrelevant which border countries to Brazil might be stable or friendly today - especially in South America. Their assessments will no doubt have included Columbia, Venezuela, Argentina, Chile and certainly any predicted future military scenarios. 

[Stratos 3,168]

Interesting topics here guys. One thing that I don't understand and it seems nobody talks about is range, Brazil is a huge country with airfields separate by thousands of KM, IIRC the Gripen is short legged for Brazil unless they plan to use them only in the coastal more developed areas.

 

What do you think?

 

BTW Crazyhorse talks about Chilean viper superiority, is ok, but have you seen Chile? Is a really narrow country, easily cut in half or worse even by few troops. Also a very important things you may or may not know, Chileans are not really apreciatted in any South American country, nobody likes them!! Neither Perú, Bolivia, Brazil or Argentina, so they better keep those Vipers defending their country. 

[+Brain32 265]

Also a very important things you may or may not know, Chileans are not really apreciatted in any South American country, nobody likes them!! Neither Perú, Bolivia, Brazil or Argentina, so they better keep those Vipers defending their country. 

I must say I had no clue about that, I thought that apart from Ecuador and Peru they are all pretty ok with each other down there...

[Stratos 3,168]

I must say I had no clue about that, I thought that apart from Ecuador and Peru they are all pretty ok with each other down there...

 

Far from it. Chile let the RAF use some of their airfields during the Falklands war so argentinians don't really like them in fact I ask every argentinian I know and I know lots of them and they really dislike Chileans, Chile negates Bolivia acces to the sea, an acces they lost after a war, and Chile has a long history of problems with Peru.

[JediMaster 451]

Because it doesn't matter what religion you are, what ethnicity you are, what you believe...people will always find ways to divide themselves into "us" and "them" to address the problem of "I want what they have."

[MigBuster 2,861]

Interesting topics here guys. One thing that I don't understand and it seems nobody talks about is range, Brazil is a huge country with airfields separate by thousands of KM, IIRC the Gripen is short legged for Brazil unless they plan to use them only in the coastal more developed areas.

 

What do you think?

 

BTW Crazyhorse talks about Chilean viper superiority, is ok, but have you seen Chile? Is a really narrow country, easily cut in half or worse even by few troops. Also a very important things you may or may not know, Chileans are not really apreciatted in any South American country, nobody likes them!! Neither Perú, Bolivia, Brazil or Argentina, so they better keep those Vipers defending their country. 

 

On the plus side Chilean Vipers don't need to fly over Brasil on the defensive.

 

 

Had a skiing instructor a few years back from Chile - works in Chile for their season then goes to Andorra for their snowy season - he dint mention the Argies though.

 

Brazil have been using F-5EMs - Based on their use of TurboJets and tiny fuel load you would certainly expect Gripen to have better range than these.

 

 

Do either have A-A tankers ?

[+Gepard 10,268]

The newest Vipers are nice birds. True. But the Gripen is much cooler. Its a more modern design. Its able to operate under rough conditions and semi prepared airstripes.

Your only point is the BVR capability of the Viper. The Gripen is BVR capable too, but the US is sabotaging this capability by boycotting AMRAAM sell to Brazil.

You are right if you say Meteor is a uncertain option. But what if the connection Brazil - Russia becomes closer. The russians sold Mi-35 helicopters to Brazil and as far as i have heared the brazilianians are really satisfied with this bird. What would happen if Russia sell their R-77 (AA-12 Adder) to Brazil? Its only a question of system integration into Gripen radar and WCS. Its not impossible.

Under this conditions the chile Viper vs brazil Gripen scenario becomes an other face.

And by the way, the AMRAAM is not anymore the silver bullit, which it was in the early 90th. There are now methods to beat this formidable missile. At NATO fighter town Deciomommanu this evading was trained very successfully.

[+logan4 845]

Brazil already uses the Derby on the upgraded F-5EM/FM birds, so an other cooperation with Israel would not be that hard to bring under the roof to get it integrated into the Gripen together with the Python family. Logistically a very viable route to go.

[JediMaster 451]

As the AMRAAM hasn't been used in combat in 10 years to say definitively one way or another it is or isn't as good is disingenuous at best. Training and exercises with simulated firings are good for crew responses and procedures, but they don't indicate ECM or ECCM effectiveness of/on missile seekers.

 

In other words, I'm not going to worry about my AMRAAM not working great until I fire it and it DOESN'T get a kill. Until that time, I'll assume it's PK is still at AIM-9 levels.

[+Brain32 265]

Has Derby been cleared for use on Gripen?.......No. (Who is going to pay for that? Not Brazil.)  Has Adder?......No (Who would waste their money on that?).

R-Darter is cleared and it is most likely to be used on the Brazilian Gripen, considering that Brazil already worked on A-Darter with South Africa, Brazil will most likely not even ask for AMRAAM's or any other BVR weapon as using R-Darter should be the easiest, cheapest and logistically most practical solution... 

[JediMaster 451]

It's also a matter of need. Any price is too high for something if you don't have a need for it.

[MigBuster 2,861]

SAAB advertise Derby already as a weapon option for Gripen - only info is that its a lengthened Python 4 with active seeker head.

 

http://www.saabgroup.com/Global/Documents%20and%20Images/Air/Gripen/Gripen%20product%20sheet/Gripen_Weapons.pdf

 

 

The AIM-120 - which is due for AIM-120D has the biggest budget and actually has combat experience so on this basis only it should be superior by a good margin - but there is no real world data to back up any modern missile performance.......

 

 

Now Brazil would appear to have 11 x AWACs type platforms (Embraer) - so if Gripen E avionics can integrate into the wireless network then that could have been another consideration.

 

Although its a good point that equipment must work when you come to use it you must remember that storage,handling and maintenance in between manufacture can affect things - I have a whole book of malfunctioning AIM-7Ms fired in ODS as told by USAF pilots.

 

On the positive side Sweden have vast experience  in operating front canard aircraft on a budget with data link technology - and an airforce that can work together with superior SA potential due to better sensor fusion and networking will have a distinct advantage over those relying on radar range of a single fighter.

 

 

Unfortunately avionics, radar range and RCS range are unknowns when it comes to what these airforces actually have (or will get) - but its fun to speculate sometimes

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[+JonathanRL 973]

Now Brazil would appear to have 11 x AWACs type platforms (Embraer) - so if Gripen E avionics can integrate into the wireless network then that could have been another consideration.

 

The Radar Arrays on the Embraer (The Erieye) is also designed by Saab and is the same link used today between Saab S-100 Argus and the Gripen C.

Edited December 31, 2013 by JonathanRL

[MigBuster 2,861]

 What would happen if Russia sell their R-77 (AA-12 Adder) to Brazil? Its only a question of system integration into Gripen radar and WCS. Its not impossible.

Under this conditions the chile Viper vs brazil Gripen scenario becomes an other face.

And by the way, the AMRAAM is not anymore the silver bullit, which it was in the early 90th. There are now methods to beat this formidable missile. At NATO fighter town Deciomommanu this evading was trained very successfully.

 

If Derby is good enough for Israel then its good enough for Brazil - it could be superior to the R-77 variants for all we know (especially export).

 

AMRAAM combat firing shows it was never a silver bullet - it would certainly be naive to think it hasn't vastly improved though as JM stated - but so have Counter Measures. This does kinda go with my point though that if you pay more for the F-16 then you get support that may allow you to do things like detect incoming missiles - because it doesn't matter what you are flying if you don't know a missiles coming your way!

Edited December 31, 2013 by MigBuster

[+Dave 2,318]

Hey all, pissing contests to a minimum please. 

 

I can say this about the subject, the Gripen is a cool looking, highly capable aircraft. But I am an fighter aircraft junkie and they are ALL cool. Who cares what a country chose, the fact remains WE here at CA wont get to fly our own.

[+CrazyhorseB34 937]

I guess we should start by telling people not to start a topic with the words, " Loss of American dignity."

 

Dance like a drunk fat woman at a wedding if you want to over the Gripen.

 

Never expect your topic to be taken seriously when the first sentence is an insult.

 

America has dignity.

[macelena 1,070]

If we still had MP for TW Games, Stary and JRL would already be flooding FB with screenies of dogfights among Gripens and Polish F-16s, all while cursing each other with references to Carl Gustav and the Winged Hussars. Indeed, if they aren´t already doing it must be because of an epic hangover.

[+JonathanRL 973]

We are already doing so without any Multiplayer, Macalena.

[+Stary 2,426]

what bloody Swede said

[macelena 1,070]

Like i said

[+CrazyhorseB34 937]

Yes, but what does the fox say?

[JediMaster 451]

Generally speaking the exact opposite of what MSNBC says.

[+Gepard 10,268]

I had a nice talk with a former german Luftwaffe MiG-29 pilot about this subject. And he told me, that the Gripen was the most capable and dangerous advisary he had faced in his MiG days. The next, he said, was the F-18E which is also an excellent dogfighter but had not as much power as the MiG-29. In an dogfight the 18 loses speed faster than the MiG and when the Hornet must lower the nose to gain speed, then it got "hammered".

Interesstingly, he saw the F-16 not as to dangerous in dogfight. Over long distances, of course, a dangerous opponent, but in dogfight only a poor prey for hammering.

 

Dont know why he always said "hammering"!

[MigBuster 2,861]

I had a nice talk with a former german Luftwaffe MiG-29 pilot about this subject. And he told me, that the Gripen was the most capable and dangerous advisary he had faced in his MiG days. The next, he said, was the F-18E which is also an excellent dogfighter but had not as much power as the MiG-29. In an dogfight the 18 loses speed faster than the MiG and when the Hornet must lower the nose to gain speed, then it got "hammered".

Interesstingly, he saw the F-16 not as to dangerous in dogfight. Over long distances, of course, a dangerous opponent, but in dogfight only a poor prey for hammering.

 

Dont know why he always said "hammering"!

 

 

You would hope no one procures airframes based on staged 1 v 1 WVR dogfight exercises  - otherwise Typhoon & Rafale would probably selling like hot cakes. As I said before - integration of Gripen E into an air defence network will make them a far superior fighting force - regardless of any rumored airframe advantages.   

[MAKO69 186]

The newest Vipers are nice birds. True. But the Gripen is much cooler. Its a more modern design. Its able to operate under rough conditions and semi prepared airstripes.

Your only point is the BVR capability of the Viper. The Gripen is BVR capable too, but the US is sabotaging this capability by boycotting AMRAAM sell to Brazil.

You are right if you say Meteor is a uncertain option. But what if the connection Brazil - Russia becomes closer. The russians sold Mi-35 helicopters to Brazil and as far as i have heared the brazilianians are really satisfied with this bird. What would happen if Russia sell their R-77 (AA-12 Adder) to Brazil? Its only a question of system integration into Gripen radar and WCS. Its not impossible.

Under this conditions the chile Viper vs brazil Gripen scenario becomes an other face.

And by the way, the AMRAAM is not anymore the silver bullit, which it was in the early 90th. There are now methods to beat this formidable missile. At NATO fighter town Deciomommanu this evading was trained very successfully.

If Brazil gets friendly? How do you mean? Just because a country purchases equipment from another country doesn't mean that they are allies and Brazil will support Russia if they decide to invade or go to war with another country. Is that what you mean? Its a business decision. The Russian's make pretty good equipment that is a little less expensive than other countries. Upgrades and modifications may or may not be allowed because SAAB may not want the Russians putting their Commie hands on the aircraft they designed. And yes the US State Department has a heavy influence on Brazil's military capability. Between the Brazilian Air Force and Navy there are some half dozen or so aircraft that have origins in the US, and or allies of the U.S.